Alternative look at concussions

[BobbyC81]

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, BobbyC81 said:

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

 

If the NFL adopts an XFL KIckoff scheme, this could also be coming in a few years.

[djp14150]

1 hour ago, BobbyC81 said:

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

 

with all sports you have unintended consequences.  Having more equipment might feel you are safer and play more aggressive.  
 

also you have gotten naturally bigger and better athletes playing.  Just look at the Oline. It was rare for a lineman to be over 300 pounds, now it’s reversed.

 

look at ice hockey.  Years ago players didn’t play with helmets. Now in younger leagues they wear helmets and full face shields— as a result they have gotten use to not controlling their stick as wells allowing it to hit the head and face mask more.

 

earlier this week I saw a story of the few that still pla6 without sone sort of visor in the nhl.

 

concussions have gone up because they are evaluating them where before they didn’t.

[Governor]

At this point it’s wear the goofy helmet and get laughed at or deal with it. I think the test is more about making sure your awake so you don’t go back out there and get your head taken clean off.

Edited October 25 by Governor

[Tuco]

2 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

 

I don't know about the AMA. I know the game day protocol, which includes an unaffiliated neurosomething consultant on each sideline as well as one in a booth with two trainers to assist him, was established after the league paid $765 million to former players because of concussions. It was enhanced after the first Tua debacle to what we have today. I know they take it seriously. The CBA contains the word concussion 182 times. The entire protocol and checklist were developed jointly by the NFL's head, neck and spinal committee and the NFLPAs similar committee. And that protocol and checklist are agreed to in the CBA by both parties. The part of the CBA just describing the game day protocols takes up 13 pages. Of course I don't know, but I think a little more has gone into it than just having it blessed by the AMA.

 

 

Also, to the point of helmets adding to the instances of concussions, FWIW my father, who played his high school ball in the '50s, has been saying this for over 60 years that I'm aware of. 

Edited October 25 by Tuco

[Matt_In_NH]

There is no easy test...its not lke take xray, see broken bone, diagnose broken bone.  The NFL and its fans want Josh Allen to go back in there, I could see them adopting/further making changes to the protocols similar to rugby to appease the public perception but at the end of the day, a very high percentage of concussions go undiagnosed and the NFL is ok with that as are most fans.  What happened with Josh demonstrated how ridiculous their protocol is.  At the end of the day it is up to the individual player to decide how to handle such situations.  The protocol is very "beatable" and ex players have discussed this.  Josh was out briefly, it was not that different than the TUA situation, from the stand point, it was obvious there was a head injury in both cases.  Fan reactions of the Dolphins and Bills is totally based on if they are a fan of that team or not.  

[boyst]

There is way too much made of this nonsense. Everything we do is with a risk. Crossing the street, getting on an elevator, mowing the lawn. Every job we take has a detrimental possibility. Dental assistants get terrible hand issues. Truck drivers face obesity and sedentary lifestyle issues. Office workers, the same. Finance bros face mental health issues. Every job has its faults and everyone chooses what they do including sportsball players.

 

The point I'm making is that at this point everyone realizes football is a contact sport and if you've made it to the NFL you've surely had your bell ring, at the least. These guys have dreams and a competitive edge that is different than other careers. Who are we or anyone else to tell them what to do when they know the risks and reap the rewards?

 

Spare me all of this concern. The NFL is not a difficult job. Logging, farming, firefighting, etc. are more dangerous. Loading trucks at a warehouse, working a poultry plant, and most industrial jobs are just as difficult. We are over infatuated with these gladiators and their choices.

[Mr. WEO]

neither the NFL nor the players via their union want to keep their star players out of the game for possible concussions.

 

so it's smelling salts to wake you up for your 3 minute "independent neurotrauma exam" and back out of the tent you go...

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, boyst said:

There is way too much made of this nonsense. Everything we do is with a risk. Crossing the street, getting on an elevator, mowing the lawn. Every job we take has a detrimental possibility. Dental assistants get terrible hand issues. Truck drivers face obesity and sedentary lifestyle issues. Office workers, the same. Finance bros face mental health issues. Every job has its faults and everyone chooses what they do including sportsball players.

 

The point I'm making is that at this point everyone realizes football is a contact sport and if you've made it to the NFL you've surely had your bell ring, at the least. These guys have dreams and a competitive edge that is different than other careers. Who are we or anyone else to tell them what to do when they know the risks and reap the rewards?

 

Spare me all of this concern. The NFL is not a difficult job. Logging, farming, firefighting, etc. are more dangerous. Loading trucks at a warehouse, working a poultry plant, and most industrial jobs are just as difficult. We are over infatuated with these gladiators and their choices.

 

 

You're right. Only people injured at the most dangerous possible jobs deserve our concern.

 

A crossing guard who gets mowed down? Who cares!! After all, the injury stats at his job are low. Why should we care? A teacher who loses a leg? Nobody cares, and why should they?

 

The fact that it's injury and not death that is so common in football definitely means it's not worth talking about or being concerned about.

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

neither the NFL nor the players via their union want to keep their star players out of the game for possible concussions.

 

so it's smelling salts to wake you up for your 3 minute "independent neurotrauma exam" and back out of the tent you go...

 

 

And yet players are ruled out every week.

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You're right. Only people injured at the most dangerous possible jobs deserve our concern.

 

A crossing guard who gets mowed down? Who cares!! After all, the injury stats at his job are low. Why should we care? A teacher who loses a leg? Nobody cares, and why should they?

 

The fact that it's injury and not death that is so common in football definitely means it's not worth talking about or being concerned about.

You're mistaking an accident with an injury. Well done with that goal post.

 

We need to just ban football, give everyone a bubble to live in and make sure no one can choose for themselves what to do with their lives.

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, boyst said:

You're mistaking an accident with an injury. Well done with that goal post.

 

We need to just ban football, give everyone a bubble to live in and make sure no one can choose for themselves what to do with their lives.

 

 

No, I'm really not. Unless you're saying that accidents never cause injury. Which would be spectacularly dumb.

 

But that's absolutely several lovely straw men about bans and bubbles and taking away freedoms. 

 

 

Edited October 25 by Thurman#1

[K-9]

13 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

I appreciate and respect your thoughts here but frankly, we aren’t entitled to more information about Josh’s sideline assessment. But the league doesn’t do itself any favors by leaving everything open for speculation by us armchair QBs and MDs. 

[ProcessImproverMan]

11 hours ago, djp14150 said:

 

with all sports you have unintended consequences.  Having more equipment might feel you are safer and play more aggressive.  
 

also you have gotten naturally bigger and better athletes playing.  Just look at the Oline. It was rare for a lineman to be over 300 pounds, now it’s reversed.

 

look at ice hockey.  Years ago players didn’t play with helmets. Now in younger leagues they wear helmets and full face shields— as a result they have gotten use to not controlling their stick as wells allowing it to hit the head and face mask more.

 

earlier this week I saw a story of the few that still pla6 without sone sort of visor in the nhl.

 

concussions have gone up because they are evaluating them where before they didn’t.

Absolutely agree. Very well written post. 

 

I think we are seeing increased hamstring pulls and other soft injuries due to guys not having as much practice time to get into game shape and player emphasis on being built muscularly to the max where all it takes is a little pop or wrong tweak to cause an injury. Guys are too tightly strung due to all the workouts in the gym and such but aren't in game shape. They can run faster 40 times but cant last for a full season. 

 

Baseball has increasingly emphasized pitchers get more rest between games and pitch less innings even though evidence is coming out it doesn't really prevent injuries. Arm injuries are on the increase despite this measure to try to prevent them and I think it has something to do with pitchers arms not being in shape enough. Japanese pitchers have less injuries than American pitchers do and baseball training in Japan is pretty much military boarding school style where pitchers are throwing all day every day pretty much. When I used to play baseball growing up decades ago, I pitched every game every inning pretty much and used to practice throwing a ball against a barn. Many rural kids did the same. No arm injuries really because we were used to throwing so much. 

 

What seems to be causing the injuries more so in baseball is people not used to throwing much and then being pushed to throw as hard as possible when they do throw because all the emphasis now is on pitch speed. Go 120% every pitch instead of pacing one self. Pitchers decades ago used to pace themselves more and it led to guys being able to throw 150 plus pitches regularly in a game. Now pitchers are lucky to often hit 80-100 pitches. 

[boyst]

22 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, I'm really not. Unless you're saying that accidents never cause injury. Which would be spectacularly dumb.

 

But that's absolutely several lovely straw men about bans and bubbles and taking away freedoms. 

 

 

So concussions in contact sports would be eliminated how? And where is the conclusive study that football is more dangerous than other sports?

[billykay]

2 hours ago, ProcessImproverMan said:

Absolutely agree. Very well written post. 

 

I think we are seeing increased hamstring pulls and other soft injuries due to guys not having as much practice time to get into game shape and player emphasis on being built muscularly to the max where all it takes is a little pop or wrong tweak to cause an injury. Guys are too tightly strung due to all the workouts in the gym and such but aren't in game shape. They can run faster 40 times but cant last for a full season. 

 

Baseball has increasingly emphasized pitchers get more rest between games and pitch less innings even though evidence is coming out it doesn't really prevent injuries. Arm injuries are on the increase despite this measure to try to prevent them and I think it has something to do with pitchers arms not being in shape enough. Japanese pitchers have less injuries than American pitchers do and baseball training in Japan is pretty much military boarding school style where pitchers are throwing all day every day pretty much. When I used to play baseball growing up decades ago, I pitched every game every inning pretty much and used to practice throwing a ball against a barn. Many rural kids did the same. No arm injuries really because we were used to throwing so much. 

 

What seems to be causing the injuries more so in baseball is people not used to throwing much and then being pushed to throw as hard as possible when they do throw because all the emphasis now is on pitch speed. Go 120% every pitch instead of pacing one self. Pitchers decades ago used to pace themselves more and it led to guys being able to throw 150 plus pitches regularly in a game. Now pitchers are lucky to often hit 80-100 pitches. 

I agree re: hammies. Is it so prevalent in the NFL because of weights or something similar. I played basketball in HS and college. I can't remember anyone ever getting a hamstring pull. Lots of sprained ankles but no hammies and only a few knee problems.

[Buffalo ill]

In regards to the earlier statement about soft tissue injuries, I would not be surprised if it has to do with modern PEDs and training taking muscles to a level that the tendons were never going to keep up with.  It's like building up a car's engine but neglecting the transmission.

[msw2112]

I agree that tendons and ligaments were not designed to handle the strain of bigger, heavier athletes with the extreme muscle weight and density that many of today's athletes have, leading to more stained and torn tendons and ligaments.  I also agree that many athletes focus on building muscle mass, but don't do enough stretching and yoga type of exercise to help with lean and flexible muscles, resulting in more soft-tissue injuries.  I know that as Bills fans, many on this board dislike Tom Brady, but he did that type of exercise and it's, in my opinion, one of the reasons he was able to play as long as he did without too many injuries.  I'm not a physician, physical therapist or yoga instructor, so my comments are simply my lay person's observations and not based on specific experience or evidence.  I can say that my sore back and other ailments tend to decrease substantially when I attend yoga classes, but I don't believe that my experience compares a whole lot to the stressors that the body of a young, fit professional athlete faces.

Edited October 25 by msw2112

[Malazan]

A lot of people "doing their own research" on google about concussions have an inflated view of their expertise on the subject.

Edited October 25 by Malazan

[pennstate10]

19 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

Regarding concussions in the NFL, I wondered if wearing helmets and shoulder pads made players feel more invincible and gave them more confidence to utilize this armor to make tackles.

 

I thought about the beginning of pro football with leather helmets and shoulder pads and whether players were less likely to get their heads in there on tackles.

 

A good comparison of course is rugby, which our American football was derived from.  I did some research on their injuries.  It turns out that they have a high incidence of concussions also.  Here’s where it differs.   The professional rugby union, which the sport is actually called, has the Pitchside Suspected Concussion Assessment (PSCA) which was a 5 minute assessment.  A retired former rugby player was involved in having this assessment increased to 10 minutes because it was believed some concussion symptoms didn’t appear for 10 minutes.  Of course, there are other studies which note concussion symptoms first appearing hours and even days after an impact.

 

So, again, there was our superstar QB, going thru a brief assessment, that we have no information about, and running back on the field after a couple minutes.  Maybe the assessment used by the NFL has been blessed by the AMA but at this point we’re not provided with enough information.   If the rugby union decided a 10 minute assessment was necessary, it makes you wonder.

I’m not debating whether the rugby evaluation is better than the NFL 

But the idea that it is better because it’s longer is just silly. 
if it takes you 10 minutes to scan 15 items in a self checkout line, and it takes me 3 minutes, are you doing a better job of scanning?