the Daboll/Schoen regime - on the brink, it seems

[eball]

11 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Overinvest in d linemen and running backs at the expense of speed and skill at the island positions.

 

10 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

D-line is kinda never a bad investment, IMHO. Obviously, the players have to be good for it to work.

 

Yeah…I mean, to say investing heavily in the DL is “outdated” doesn’t really make sense to me.  As long as they are playing tackle football games will be won and lost in the trenches.

 

We all want speedsters at WR and CB.  I’d venture to say Beane is no different.  How’s Miami doing right now with all of their speed when they can’t keep their QB upright?

 

As far as “overinvesting” in RBs…have we?  Beane’s strategy actually seems to be pretty smart.  He’s used a 2nd and a couple of 3rds on RBs but we aren’t paying any 2nd contracts so those players are very affordable…and right now the Bills have a fantastic RB room that is making a difference on the field.

 

Anyway…I know everyone has his/her own opinion and there are a group of fans on this board who disagree with just about everything McD and Beane do…but damn, this is an elite franchise that has just been very unlucky in the playoffs.  It’s not as if we are lagging behind the league.

 

[May Day 10]

They were dealt a bad hand from the start, and they had that smoke and mirrors flukey 1st season that raised expectations

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I think Schoen is more to blame for the mess

Is he though?  He has built a good defense or at least a good front seven.  He has started to fix the offensive line (they’ve had some bad luck there), he made the right decision at running back, and drafted a true difference-maker at receiver.  That last decision was probably the toughest but if you watched Hard Knocks they wouldn’t have been able to go up for Williams or Daniels and Maye wouldn’t be helping them right now.  The roster isn’t terrible it’s just missing a QB who can overcome bad play calls or win games on his own.  If you swap Allen for Jones I think you swap records.

[foreboding]

17 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

People are focusing on Barkley carving the Giants up yesterday, but my god is their offense terrible. I know they lost their starting LT (Thomas), but 119 yards vs the Eagles D is just unacceptable. Before the season I thought that their d-line would make them a playoff contender (Thibadoux, Lawrence, Burns), and while the d-line has played well (and the defense overall has been pretty good), they look like a 4-13 team. I now think both Daboll and Schoen will be gone at the end of the season. I've long defended Daboll, who I think is a creative play caller (at least with the Bills), and I've excused his poor offenses because the QBs he has rolled out there before Josh Allen were all really bad. But while Daniel Jones isn't good, he's hardly Brady Quinn level. I see him as slightly to moderately below league average, but the team is now 30th in points, 27th in yards, and 29th in passing ypa. And they have a stud in Nabers, who is frankly more valuable already than Barkley would have been.

 

I have to hand it to @BADOLBILZ for his resolute contempt for Daboll. Aside from his years with Allen and one OK season in 2022 with the Giants (and even in that season the passing offense was bad - 26th in yards, 24th in TDs, and 27th in ypa), the offenses he's overseen have been depressingly unproductive (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DaboBr0.htm). I still give him leeway given the terrible QBs he's had to field, but again, I really don't think Jones is that bad and the results aren't getting any better. And he and Schoen chose to pay Jones, which says something too. This will certainly be Jones's last season starting for NY, but I can see him having a decent career as a backup. Reminds me a little bit Trubisky in terms of total productivity and career trajectory.

   

I agree on Daboll. I think he'd worn his welcome out here. He seems like he's got alot of "me guy" in him, in a culture, at least here, that is all about credit to the next guy. If you rent a good follower, you're also not going to be a good leader imo.

Edited 4 hours ago by foreboding

[Brian Higgins hair]

Schoen doesn’t have a clue.. letting Saquon out the door without a contract and thinking he was going to come back? And then Jones? Nice guy.,,not a negotiator.

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Is he though?  He has built a good defense or at least a good front seven.  He has started to fix the offensive line (they’ve had some bad luck there), he made the right decision at running back, and drafted a true difference-maker at receiver.  That last decision was probably the toughest but if you watched Hard Knocks they wouldn’t have been able to go up for Williams or Daniels and Maye wouldn’t be helping them right now.  The roster isn’t terrible it’s just missing a QB who can overcome bad play calls or win games on his own.  If you swap Allen for Jones I think you swap records.

 

Meh. I am not as high as you on their roster clearly. I think they only have one legitimate player on their oline - Thomas. They are unlucky he is hurt but they spent the 7th overall pick on Evan Neal and he currently is the backup right tackle and can't get on the field even when Thomas is down. He spent a second rounder on his center who is playing at a replacement level. 

 

I think he has been a tad unlucky on the defensive line that Thibodeaux seemed to break out 2nd half of last year and then got hurt. Burns was a reasonable trade. But behind the front 4 I don't like their defense at all. Nubin and Phillips look promising as a rookie safety and nickel corner but they are just potential at this stage. Basically proven "above replacement level" players on this roster are:

 

Nabers, Nubin, Phillips (all rookies) and then Lawrence, Thibo and Burns on the Dline plus Andrew Thomas on Oline. The rest of the roster is trash. 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Meh. I am not as high as you on their roster clearly. I think they only have one legitimate player on their oline - Thomas. They are unlucky he is hurt but they spent the 7th overall pick on Evan Neal and he currently is the backup right tackle and can't get on the field even when Thomas is down. He spent a second rounder on his center who is playing at a replacement level. 

 

I think he has been a tad unlucky on the defensive line that Thibodeaux seemed to break out 2nd half of last year and then got hurt. Burns was a reasonable trade. But behind the front 4 I don't like their defense at all. Nubin and Phillips look promising as a rookie safety and nickel corner but they are just potential at this stage. Basically proven "above replacement level" players on this roster are:

 

Nabers, Nubin, Phillips (all rookies) and then Lawrence, Thibo and Burns on the Dline plus Andrew Thomas on Oline. The rest of the roster is trash. 

 

Okereke and Ojulari are really good players.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

Okereke and Ojulari are really good players.

 

I'll give you Okereke is above replacement level. He's average. Not an Ojulari fan AT ALL. Think he stinks. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'll give you Okereke is above replacement level. He's average. Not an Ojulari fan AT ALL. Think he stinks. 

Look at his sack numbers when healthy.  Already has 4 this season.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Look at his sack numbers when healthy.  Already has 4 this season.

 

Yea he is Ngakoue take II for me. I thought he stunk too. 

[BuffaloRebound]

2 hours ago, MRW said:

 

But (outside of that first year) the Giants aren't making the playoffs! Daboll and Schoen aren't on the hot seat because they're failing in the divisional round every year.

True, but in reality that first year bought them nothing other than the expectation that they’d improve on that where as McBeane’s first year bought them enough time to tear it down. Maybe the truth is that Daboll is a little full of himself thinking he was responsible for Josh’s success and could do the same for Jones even though he’s a much lesser talent than Josh. Now he’s paying the price for that arrogance.  

[corta765]

They did it to themselves specifically owner and GM by paying Jones but then not paying Barkley who was key to Jones best seasons. Daboll is no fool and knows they don't have the horses up front and Jones is a crappy QB. But you can't do much when the Gm/Owner are driving the ship the way they have.

 

It still is mind blowing to me that a GM who saw the proper way to address the QB position and how to maneuver as best as possible in the draft, leaves to become a GM and then overpays a crappy QB when the time was then to draft a kid.

2 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

They were dealt a bad hand from the start, and they had that smoke and mirrors flukey 1st season that raised expectations

 

 

 Their decision based off their 1st season would've been like if the Bills kept Taylor for 4 more years after 2017 instead of moving on to get Allen.

[BarleyNY]

18 hours ago, notpolian said:

Paying Jones.

The video with Schoen talking the owner Mara about letting Barkley walk.

 

I have a soft spot for Daboll and Schoen since they came from our org.  But they are toast.

The criticism of the Daniels contract has been overblown IMO. Coming off of a playoff season they had to do something to keep him. Schoen did a reasonable job there because the contract was effectively a 2 year, $82M deal, which is over this season. More than he was worth, obviously, but they were stuck and needed to see if he continued to develop. I think Dabs and Schoen get to pick their QB and get a shot with him. The Giants are a stable organization with steady ownership and that bodes well for them staying. 

[HardyBoy]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

My fair share?  It takes a lot of contriving to come up with anything resembling that.😉

 

It's not that I am wrong nearly as often as the average takester.........I'm not......... it's that the key to being right a lot is not weighing in on every single thing you have a passing notion about.

 

Some just don't know what they are talking about and others just gotta' weigh in on sh!t they haven't really done their homework on.   Those people get the bulk of the takes wrong on TSW.   Then you have quality takesters who eat up the balance.   But the scale is largely weighted to how much one says.

 

I knew exactly who Daboll was so that was a layup.  Clever-not-smart people get whole regimes fired in football and can build up toxins in the locker room that take a lot of rosterbation to clean out.   Since Walsh and Coryell started transforming the NFL brand of football into more of a passing game there have been enough jokers like Daboll hired as HC's that a seasoned owner like John Mara shouldn't fall for that but he seemed to have lost confidence in his decision making.    I suspect he will get back to the Parcells/Coughlin types with his next venture.   Maybe BB himself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See and that's why I tend to go with fewer, but really long posts when I talk about stuff...I will take this post as validation to continue doing that!

 

Seriously though, I think this whole short form trend is what is causing some of what you're saying...not just because people feel like they need to say something, anything and the barrier for providing input is so low with it being like 140 characters...but really, there are a lot of times you realize what you're saying in those 140 characters makes no sense as you drill down in a longer form post, and you can basically tear down your initial premise that way and come up with an idea that actually makes sense in the end.

 

Of course, if it's too long and nobody reads it, that also reminds me of that tree in the woods that nobody hears fall...or if that doesn't make sense, does a one handed clap make a sound?

 

[BillsVet]

14 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Overinvest in d linemen and running backs at the expense of speed and skill at the island positions.

 

At least they admitted in-season their offense and personnel weren't working or going to without a true WR investment.  Don't think it was the plan, but OK.  

 

I wish they'd learn from these types of critical mistakes and not repeat them.  As in, that the DL thing every year is not sustainable and RB's don't turn predictable play-calling paired with average OL into a plus running game.  The offense will improve I believe featuring an excellent WR which opens up other players as we saw on Sunday.  

 

McBeane gotta be more honest with themselves in the off-season reviews and look in the mirror.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

They were dealt a bad hand from the start, and they had that smoke and mirrors flukey 1st season that raised expectations

 

 

 

Totally agree.  They were given this "team on the rise" tag, and i think they won 8 1-score games that year.  Very few turnovers and a last place schedule. 

 

They are 8-16 over the last 2 seasons which is enough games to know that this team is bad.  The offense has been bottom 5 for 2 straight years with an offensive coach.  The defense can get after the QB - but they have 1 interception through 7 weeks.  They have forced 6 fumbles and recovered all 6, which is not sustainable.  They've probably actually overachieved on defense all things considered. 

 

The team that they have built over 3 years - is really bad.  I would fire pretty much everyone, and figure out a way to get a QB - maybe 2 tbh.  

[eball]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

At least they admitted in-season their offense and personnel weren't working or going to without a true WR investment.  Don't think it was the plan, but OK.  

 

I wish they'd learn from these types of critical mistakes and not repeat them.  As in, that the DL thing every year is not sustainable and RB's don't turn predictable play-calling paired with average OL into a plus running game.  The offense will improve I believe featuring an excellent WR which opens up other players as we saw on Sunday.  

 

McBeane gotta be more honest with themselves in the off-season reviews and look in the mirror.  

 

You think the Bills' OL is just "average?"  Anybody have the latest rankings?

 

[Einstein's Dog]

39 minutes ago, corta765 said:

They did it to themselves specifically owner and GM by paying Jones but then not paying Barkley who was key to Jones best seasons. Daboll is no fool and knows they don't have the horses up front and Jones is a crappy QB. But you can't do much when the Gm/Owner are driving the ship the way they have.

 

It still is mind blowing to me that a GM who saw the proper way to address the QB position and how to maneuver as best as possible in the draft, leaves to become a GM and then overpays a crappy QB when the time was then to draft a kid.

 Their decision based off their 1st season would've been like if the Bills kept Taylor for 4 more years after 2017 instead of moving on to get Allen.

It was weird coming from the Bills, that DaBoll/Schoen went with keeping the mediocre QB and also not trading Barkley that year.  It seemed like the opposite of what the Bills did, when they decided to move on from Tyrod and move on from paying RBs (moved on from Shady).

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

The criticism of the Daniels contract has been overblown IMO. Coming off of a playoff season they had to do something to keep him. Schoen did a reasonable job there because the contract was effectively a 2 year, $82M deal, which is over this season. More than he was worth, obviously, but they were stuck and needed to see if he continued to develop. I think Dabs and Schoen get to pick their QB and get a shot with him. The Giants are a stable organization with steady ownership and that bodes well for them staying. 

 

I don't know how they're going to get a QB though.  If the coach/gm is on thin ice, why am i letting them mortgage the future and trade future 1sts to move up, on a QB when they felt like they could win with daniel jones?  

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I don't know how they're going to get a QB though.  If the coach/gm is on thin ice, why am i letting them mortgage the future and trade future 1sts to move up, on a QB when they felt like they could win with daniel jones?  

They tried to trade up for a QB in this past draft and had no problem with that being broadcast on Hard Knocks. I think that was their plan: one season to see if he could develop and a second as a bridge. They just couldn’t complete a trade up to get a QB they wanted in the draft. 

Edited 2 hours ago by BarleyNY