the Daboll/Schoen regime - on the brink, it seems

[RoyBatty is alive]

20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And if they get fired this offseason, that deal would have been just long enough to cost them their jobs.

I agree with Alphadawg on this one.  In reality, unless they REALLY wanted to go radical (which they probably should have), they HAD to sign Daniel Jones.  To me is it very very similar to Tua and the Dolphins.

 

Even with all the health risk Miami had little choice to but give Tua a new contract.  It could still work out or could already be over.

[thenorthremembers]

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I think some of it is just, when you have an ok, not great young QB and your organization hasn't had success in a long while, you're kind of screwed.  You have to believe in the folks you've hired to develop said QB and you have to pay the going rate for what should be an ascending player at the most important position in pro sports, but your margin for error is really small and you could easily end up in QB purgatory - that's where the Giants are, along with the Dolphins, perhaps the Cowboys, and soon-to-be the 49ers.  You're almost better off with a bad QB than an average one in the salary cap era.  

Or your stop being scared to lose your job and do whatever you can to take a swing on a blue chip draft pick.  Its pretty clear average quarterbacks wont cut it.    One head coaching contract in the NFL will set you up for life.  May as well go for it. 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Or your stop being scared to lose your job and do whatever you can to take a swing on a blue chip draft pick.  Its pretty clear average quarterbacks wont cut it.    One head coaching contract in the NFL will set you up for life.  May as well go for it. 

 

I mean sure - but that can be hard to navigate in a storied family office environment where your bosses are the ones who bought into the QB in the first place, and a big part of the job interview was assuring them that you could make him successful.  As someone said upthread they were almost destined to fail given the owners' fondness for Barkley and Jones going in.  And you're a rookie HC and rookie GM - takes massive stones to go to the Maras and tell them, "Look, everything you've been doing and have been told for the past five to ten years has been wrong."  I mean the record should make that obvious but that's not how it works in those businesses.

Edited 12 hours ago by Coach Tuesday

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Or your stop being scared to lose your job and do whatever you can to take a swing on a blue chip draft pick.  Its pretty clear average quarterbacks wont cut it.    One head coaching contract in the NFL will set you up for life.  May as well go for it. 

Yeah, but the pickings in 2023 at slot #24 just weren’t good. It’s easy to say “draft a blue chip qb,” but there weren’t any that were realistic.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Told ya'.......

 

 

Hey don't you have some crack to smoke or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to make at high speeds or something?  I'm just trying to explain why I am always right.

[Simon]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Hey don't you have some crack to smoke or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to make at high speeds or something?  I'm just trying to explain why I am always right.

 

Why do I suddenly have a craving for a crack sandwich?

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Yeah, but the pickings in 2023 at slot #24 just weren’t good. It’s easy to say “draft a blue chip qb,” but there weren’t any that were realistic.

 

Gettleman KILLED them with that Barkley pick.  Just brutal on so many levels including the fact that Barkely is/was really good - but it was still a horrible pick (not that the Maras will ever understand that).  Gettleman is retired now but his stink pervades his two most recent organizations and also the Bills, who continue to follow much of his roster-building philosophy no matter how outdated it's been proven to be.

Edited 12 hours ago by Coach Tuesday

[dave mcbride]

25 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Not even Andy could do anything with Jones.  He's awful. 

There are a lot worse than Jones out there. Mind you, I don't think he's "good," but rather -- to quote Bill Walsh -- "good enough to get you fired." Jones is basically the platonic ideal of that aphorism (although it was originally applied to Steve DeBerg).

[boater]

I was going to say maybe the Offensive Coordinator let down Daboll.

 

But that isn't true, it turns out Daboll is doing the offensive play calling. So he can't blame their ills on anybody else.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

13 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

This was the first thing I thought of as well.  You literally just came from an organization who gave you the exact blue print on how to do it.   I am not sure who has done a worse job, Daboll or Schoen, but the roster is pretty bad.      They went out and traded picks and tons of money on a pass rusher like they were just a few moves away from a championship.   

 

The entire organization needs to be turned over and started up again. 

I think they’re partners in crime in underperforming lol their oline was not even close to nfl caliber in the past and they had nobody at the skill positions but I think there’s enough pieces in ny now where a good coach could have the team performing at least ok/a bit below average 

[thenorthremembers]

14 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I mean sure - but that can be hard to navigate in a storied family office environment where your bosses are the ones who bought into the QB in the first place, and a big part of the job interview was assuring them that you could make him successful.  As someone said upthread they were almost destined to fail given the owners' fondness for Barkley and Jones going in.  And you're a rookie HC and rookie GM - takes massive stones to go to the Maras and tell them, "Look, everything you've been doing and have been told for the past five to ten years has been wrong."  I mean the record should make that obvious but that's not how it works in those businesses.

That does make sense.   I think you're starting to see up and coming head coaches being more choosey about where they interview because of this exact reason.   Watching Mara be hurt over losing a running back was a good sign they dont have the right mindset about building a team starting at the top. 

[GerstAusGosheim]

 

 

Very few HOF coaches didn't have a HOF QB. I'm not surprised Daboll is struggling with Danny Dimes, he's terrible. 

 

Bill Walsh (HOF Coach, inducted in 1993)
Joe Montana (HOF QB, inducted in 2000)
Steve Young (HOF QB, inducted in 2005)
 

Don Shula (HOF Coach, inducted in 1997)
Johnny Unitas (HOF QB, inducted in 1979) – coached him with the Baltimore Colts.
Dan Marino (HOF QB, inducted in 2005) – coached him with the Miami Dolphins.
 

Chuck Noll (HOF Coach, inducted in 1993)
Terry Bradshaw (HOF QB, inducted in 1989)

 

Tom Landry (HOF Coach, inducted in 1990)
Roger Staubach (HOF QB, inducted in 1985)

 

Vince Lombardi (HOF Coach, inducted in 1971)
Bart Starr (HOF QB, inducted in 1977)

 

Marv Levy (HOF Coach, inducted in 2001)
Jim Kelly (HOF QB, inducted in 2002)

 

George Halas (HOF Coach, inducted in 1963)
Sid Luckman (HOF QB, inducted in 1965)

 

Weeb Ewbank (HOF Coach, inducted in 1978)
Johnny Unitas (HOF QB, inducted in 1979) – coached him with the Baltimore Colts.
Joe Namath (HOF QB, inducted in 1985) – coached him with the New York Jets.

 

Hank Stram (HOF Coach, inducted in 2003)
Len Dawson (HOF QB, inducted in 1987)

 

Bill Parcells (HOF Coach, inducted in 2013)
Phil Simms (Not a HOF QB, but a Super Bowl-winning QB for Parcells)

 

*Joe Gibbs (HOF Coach, inducted in 1996)
None of his Super Bowl-winning QBs (Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien) are in the Hall of Fame, which is noteworthy.

 

Tony Dungy (HOF Coach, inducted in 2016)
Peyton Manning (HOF QB, inducted in 2021)

 

Bill Cowher (HOF Coach, inducted in 2020)
Ben Roethlisberger (Future HOF QB)

 

Mike Holmgren (Potential Future HOF Coach, not yet inducted)
Brett Favre (HOF QB, inducted in 2016)

 

Paul Brown (HOF Coach, inducted in 1967)
Otto Graham (HOF QB, inducted in 1965)

 

Bud Grant (HOF Coach, inducted in 1994)
Fran Tarkenton (HOF QB, inducted in 1986)

 

John Madden (HOF Coach, inducted in 2006)
Ken Stabler (HOF QB, inducted in 2016)

 

George Allen (HOF Coach, inducted in 2002)
Sonny Jurgensen (HOF QB, inducted in 1983)

 

Jimmy Johnson (HOF Coach, inducted in 2020)
Troy Aikman (HOF QB, inducted in 2006)

 

Dick Vermeil (HOF Coach, inducted in 2022)
Kurt Warner (HOF QB, inducted in 2017)

 

Bill Belichick (Future HOF Coach)
Tom Brady (Future HOF QB)

[K-9]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

People are focusing on Barkley carving the Giants up yesterday, but my god is their offense terrible. I know they lost their starting LT (Thomas), but 119 yards vs the Eagles D is just unacceptable. Before the season I thought that their d-line would make them a playoff contender (Thibadoux, Lawrence, Burns), and while the d-line has played well (and the defense overall has been pretty good), they look like a 4-13 team. I now think both Daboll and Schoen will be gone at the end of the season. I've long defended Daboll, who I think is a creative play caller (at least with the Bills), and I've excused his poor offenses because the QBs he has rolled out there before Josh Allen were all really bad. But while Daniel Jones isn't good, he's hardly Brady Quinn level. I see him as slightly to moderately below league average, but the team is now 30th in points, 27th in yards, and 29th in passing ypa. And they have a stud in Nabers, who is frankly more valuable already than Barkley would have been.

 

I have to hand it to @BADOLBILZ for his resolute contempt for Daboll. Aside from his years with Allen and one OK season in 2022 with the Giants (and even in that season the passing offense was bad - 26th in yards, 24th in TDs, and 27th in ypa), the offenses he's overseen have been depressingly unproductive (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DaboBr0.htm). I still give him leeway given the terrible QBs he's had to field, but again, I really don't think Jones is that bad and the results aren't getting any better. And he and Schoen chose to pay Jones, which says something too. This will certainly be Jones's last season starting for NY, but I can see him having a decent career as a backup. Reminds me a little bit Trubisky in terms of total productivity and career trajectory.

   

When GMs and HCs hitch their wagons to a QB, that QB must be successful. Schoen and Daboll have no choice but to see Jones succeed. I’m skeptical because in his 6th season in this league, he’s still too inconsistent for me to be convinced he’s ever gonna arrive in time to save their jobs. 

[dave mcbride]

54 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

 

Very few HOF coaches didn't have a HOF QB. I'm not surprised Daboll is struggling with Danny Dimes, he's terrible. 

 

Bill Walsh (HOF Coach, inducted in 1993)
Joe Montana (HOF QB, inducted in 2000)
Steve Young (HOF QB, inducted in 2005)
 

Don Shula (HOF Coach, inducted in 1997)
Johnny Unitas (HOF QB, inducted in 1979) – coached him with the Baltimore Colts.
Dan Marino (HOF QB, inducted in 2005) – coached him with the Miami Dolphins.
 

Chuck Noll (HOF Coach, inducted in 1993)
Terry Bradshaw (HOF QB, inducted in 1989)

 

Tom Landry (HOF Coach, inducted in 1990)
Roger Staubach (HOF QB, inducted in 1985)

 

Vince Lombardi (HOF Coach, inducted in 1971)
Bart Starr (HOF QB, inducted in 1977)

 

Marv Levy (HOF Coach, inducted in 2001)
Jim Kelly (HOF QB, inducted in 2002)

 

George Halas (HOF Coach, inducted in 1963)
Sid Luckman (HOF QB, inducted in 1965)

 

Weeb Ewbank (HOF Coach, inducted in 1978)
Johnny Unitas (HOF QB, inducted in 1979) – coached him with the Baltimore Colts.
Joe Namath (HOF QB, inducted in 1985) – coached him with the New York Jets.

 

Hank Stram (HOF Coach, inducted in 2003)
Len Dawson (HOF QB, inducted in 1987)

 

Bill Parcells (HOF Coach, inducted in 2013)
Phil Simms (Not a HOF QB, but a Super Bowl-winning QB for Parcells)

 

*Joe Gibbs (HOF Coach, inducted in 1996)
None of his Super Bowl-winning QBs (Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien) are in the Hall of Fame, which is noteworthy.

 

Tony Dungy (HOF Coach, inducted in 2016)
Peyton Manning (HOF QB, inducted in 2021)

 

Bill Cowher (HOF Coach, inducted in 2020)
Ben Roethlisberger (Future HOF QB)

 

Mike Holmgren (Potential Future HOF Coach, not yet inducted)
Brett Favre (HOF QB, inducted in 2016)

 

Paul Brown (HOF Coach, inducted in 1967)
Otto Graham (HOF QB, inducted in 1965)

 

Bud Grant (HOF Coach, inducted in 1994)
Fran Tarkenton (HOF QB, inducted in 1986)

 

John Madden (HOF Coach, inducted in 2006)
Ken Stabler (HOF QB, inducted in 2016)

 

George Allen (HOF Coach, inducted in 2002)
Sonny Jurgensen (HOF QB, inducted in 1983)

 

Jimmy Johnson (HOF Coach, inducted in 2020)
Troy Aikman (HOF QB, inducted in 2006)

 

Dick Vermeil (HOF Coach, inducted in 2022)
Kurt Warner (HOF QB, inducted in 2017)

 

Bill Belichick (Future HOF Coach)
Tom Brady (Future HOF QB)

Good, but I'd add Reid and Mahomes, both of whom are stone-cold HOF locks. Reid also had McNabb, who had a very good career overall.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Are you apologizing to Badol?

 

If you hate everything and always predict doom, are you right like a broken clock?

[djp14150]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This is sounding a lot like ‘if they weren’t really bad in the red zone and prone to big turnovers they’d be a better team’ 😂. Well yea but they are those things because they’re a bad team lol 

 

the ‘if’ game gets pretty murky…maybe Washington knew they could be conservative and settle for fgs because the giants didn’t have a kicker as one example.  If you’re gonna un injure the giants kicker you change decision making for Washington too 

you say they are really bad but then surprised if they win……
 

what I’m say is that is about small margins of a few play executions can make a difference

 

some teams have been lucky in turnovers. KC won 4 games by 7 points or less. Inn the other game it was still competitive wherr you can look back and if a play or two was executed by SF against KC in the 4th thry coukd have bern ahead by 4 in the 4th before they had that red zone turnover in the 4th,

 

historically when it comes to one score 8 pt games, most teams are around 2 games above or below 500. Teams that are outside that range you can question how much of it is luck vs being good.

[NewEra]

A HC and GM combination is only as good as their QB.  They failed to get the giants a good one and now they’ll be looking for a job.  
 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Why do I suddenly have a craving for a crack sandwich?

 

Sliced white bread's vast levels of refined-wheat carbs break down so rapidly in the body that they cause intense sugar-spike highs. These make our brain's pleasure centres respond as though they are getting a hit of cocaine.  - American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If you hate everything and always predict doom, are you right like a broken clock?

 

 

So are you gonna' apologize or not?

[eball]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Gettleman KILLED them with that Barkley pick.  Just brutal on so many levels including the fact that Barkely is/was really good - but it was still a horrible pick (not that the Maras will ever understand that).  Gettleman is retired now but his stink pervades his two most recent organizations and also the Bills, who continue to follow much of his roster-building philosophy no matter how outdated it's been proven to be.

 

Serious question:  precisely what roster-building philosophy that has been proven to be outdated is Beane still pushing?

 

[Simon]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sliced white bread's vast levels of refined-wheat carbs break down so rapidly in the body that they cause intense sugar-spike highs. These make our brain's pleasure centres respond as though they are getting a hit of cocaine.  - American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

 

Did I ever tell you about the time I got caught cutting the crusts off a PBJ with a Visa card?