the Daboll/Schoen regime - on the brink, it seems

[Malazan]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I really thought he would have taken more away from learning under Beane, but the moment he decided to pay Daniel Jones they put the death nail in their tenure there.  It cost them Barkley, but more importantly, it cost them a chance to rebuild and buy themselves some time during the rebuild where they didn't need to win right away.

 

It was really strange because Schoen just saw McDermott coming in and making the playoffs in his 1st year with Tyrod at QB.. then drafting the QB. Paying Jones made no sense.. it wasn't even needed to get that deal done. One of the most illogical decisions I've ever seen.

[Sweats]

The problem in NY is that they have zero cornerstone to their roster.

Consider franchises with JA, Mahomo, Hurts, Stroud, Purdy, etc......you can build around that. You have nothing to build around in NY. They have absolutely nothing for a cornerstone and essentially will have to start from the ground up in rebuilding mode.

 

Any HC or coaching staff involved with NY right now should start throwing resumes around cause it is going to get nasty and i can't imagine too many people involved with the Giants to be around for the long haul.

[djp14150]

42 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

People are focusing on Barkley carving the Giants up yesterday, but my god is their offense terrible. I know they lost their starting LT (Thomas), but 119 yards vs the Eagles D is just unacceptable. Before the season I thought that their d-line would make them a playoff contender (Thibadoux, Lawrence, Burns), and while the d-line has played well (and the defense overall has been pretty good), they look like a 4-13 team. I now think both Daboll and Schoen will be gone at the end of the season. I've long defended Daboll, who I think is a creative play caller (at least with the Bills), and I've excused his poor offenses because the QBs he has rolled out there before Josh Allen were all really bad. But while Daniel Jones isn't good, he's hardly Brady Quinn level. I see him as slightly to moderately below league average, but the team is now 30th in points, 27th in yards, and 29th in passing ypa. And they have a stud in Nabers, who is frankly more valuable already than Barkley would have been.

 

I have to hand it to @BADOLBILZ for his resolute contempt for Daboll. Aside from his years with Allen and one OK season in 2022 with the Giants (and even in that season the passing offense was bad - 26th in yards, 24th in TDs, and 27th in ypa), the offenses he's overseen have been depressingly unproductive (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DaboBr0.htm). I still give him leeway given the terrible QBs he's had to field, but again, I really don't think Jones is that bad and the results aren't getting any better. And he and Schoen chose to pay Jones, which says something too. This will certainly be Jones's last season starting for NY, but I can see him having a decent career as a backup. Reminds me a little bit Trubisky in terms of total productivity and career trajectory.

   

L to Vikings ( very good team)

L to WAS on a last second FG **

W browns 

L to Cowboys by 5***

W Seahawks 

L to bengals in close game **

L to Eagles

bye week

 

They very easily could have beat Washington. This game they had their K injured so they got 3 TDs but had to go for 2 each time and failed on all 3.  Washington kicked only FGs. Late in the 4 th it was 18-18. Giants had the ball inside the 30 with 1st down they get to 4 th and 4. Try fail on 4 th does at WAS 22. A healthykicker….they would be up 24-18 with a FG

 

Against Cincinnati, it was 10-7 bengals early 4th. They missed 2 FG and failed on downs. In first half they gave up a red zone turnover.

 

Dallas game was close through. They had 2 red zone drives settling for 3 of 5 FG. One went 1st and goal. Late in game they failed on 4th down  with under 4 left in game

 

they are 2-5 but small margins they could be 4-3 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobbRiddick]

This seems a long time (and a lot of weight) ago

 

[dave mcbride]

24 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Daboll’s first season in NYG was a lot like McDermott’s in BUF.   The difference is that McDermott/Beane managed expectations in 2018 knowing it would be a “reset year.”

 

Daboll and Schoen re-signed the team’s “franchise QB” so they didn’t have that luxury.  
 

When you watch the Hard Knocks draft episode, Daboll is very stoic about the Nabers selection and it almost looks like Schoen is acting excited rather than being genuine.  Nabers is a great player but they knew they were screwed without drafting a WB.    
 

I think they really were hoping for a way to trade up for Jayden Daniels or Drake Maye.  I don’t think it ends well for them - but maybe Mara gives them one more season?

Good point. What do you think they could have gotten for Jones if they traded him after 2022, factoring in that the Bills got the 63rd pick for Tyrod before the 2018 draft? The issue is that with their 24th pick plus whatever they would have gotten for Jones (I can't imagine better than a 3rd), they certainly wouldn't have had the ammo to move up for Stroud, and the only guy drafted near their slot was Levis, who doesn't appear to be very good despite physical talent. So it was one of those things where Jones was better than the alternatives that were available. 

2 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

L to Vikings ( very good team)

L to WAS on a last second FG **

W browns 

L to Cowboys by 5***

W Seahawks 

L to bengals in close game **

L to Eagles

bye week

 

They very easily could have beat Washington. This game they had their K injured so they got 3 TDs but had to go for 2 each time and failed on all 3.  Washington kicked only FGs. Late in the 4 th it was 18-18. Giants had the ball inside the 30 with 1st down they get to 4 th and 4. Try fail on 4 th does at WAS 22. A healthykicker….they would be up 24-18 with a FG

 

Against Cincinnati, it was 10-7 bengals early 4th. They missed 2 FG and failed on downs. In first half they gave up a red zone turnover.

 

Dallas game was close through. They had 2 red zone drives settling for 3 of 5 FG. One went 1st and goal. Late in game they failed on 4th down  with under 4 left in game

 

they are 2-5 but small margins they could be 4-3 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, but they keep losing nonetheless and now the wheels are coming off. Losing their LT is a killer for them. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Who would want a illegitimate 40M QB handing off to a legit 20M RB?   Talk about compounding an error!

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Malazan said:

 

It was really strange because Schoen just saw McDermott coming in and making the playoffs in his 1st year with Tyrod at QB.. then drafting the QB. Paying Jones made no sense.. it wasn't even needed to get that deal done. One of the most illogical decisions I've ever seen.

 

Yeah the moment that news broke I was actually stunned, I mean that was a franchise choking move, the kind that ends regimes early.  I see a similar fate lying in Miami soon too with all the poor personnel and cap decisions they have made the past 2 seasons.  

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah the moment that news broke I was actually stunned, I mean that was a franchise choking move, the kind that ends regimes early.  I see a similar fate lying in Miami soon too with all the poor personnel and cap decisions they have made the past 2 seasons.  

If you look at the available QB landscape in 2023 plus the fact that they were drafting 24th, there weren't a lot of options. Maybe you let him play out the option, I guess. In retrospect, that would have been the smart move, but they can easily get out of that contract after this season. It was basically a two-year deal with an out. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

If you look at the available QB landscape in 2023 plus the fact that they were drafting 24th, there weren't a lot of options. Maybe you let him play out the option, I guess. In retrospect, that would have been the smart move, but they can easily get out of that contract after this season. It was basically a two-year deal with an out. 

 

And if they get fired this offseason, that deal would have been just long enough to cost them their jobs.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And if they get fired this offseason, that deal would have been just long enough to cost them their jobs.

Can't disagree.

[Don Otreply]

42 minutes ago, stuvian said:

when they decided to both trade Barkley and forego drafting a QB, they essentially mailed it in on 2024. Too bad for Daboll and Schoen. 

That was among the most poor decision making of Gm’s and Hc’s league wide, they were doomed the millisecond that they extended Jones, it made no sense, the guy has never been good as a pro, 

[LABILLBACKER]

33 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I feel like Daniel Jones is a QB that a great OC could make serviceable. Daboll has failed to do that for the most part. He's cooked.

Not even Andy could do anything with Jones.  He's awful. 

Edited October 21 by LABILLBACKER

[SoonerBillsFan]

55 minutes ago, notpolian said:

Paying Jones.

The video with Schoen talking the owner Mara about letting Barkley walk.

 

I have a soft spot for Daboll and Schoen since they came from our org.  But they are toast.

Agreed, both are done.

[BADOLBILZ]

29 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No, just giving credit where credit is due. He's been wrong about his fair share of things. 

 

My fair share?  It takes a lot of contriving to come up with anything resembling that.😉

 

It's not that I am wrong nearly as often as the average takester.........I'm not......... it's that the key to being right a lot is not weighing in on every single thing you have a passing notion about.

 

Some just don't know what they are talking about and others just gotta' weigh in on sh!t they haven't really done their homework on.   Those people get the bulk of the takes wrong on TSW.   Then you have quality takesters who eat up the balance.   But the scale is largely weighted to how much one says.

 

I knew exactly who Daboll was so that was a layup.  Clever-not-smart people get whole regimes fired in football and can build up toxins in the locker room that take a lot of rosterbation to clean out.   Since Walsh and Coryell started transforming the NFL brand of football into more of a passing game there have been enough jokers like Daboll hired as HC's that a seasoned owner like John Mara shouldn't fall for that but he seemed to have lost confidence in his decision making.    I suspect he will get back to the Parcells/Coughlin types with his next venture.   Maybe BB himself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Simon]

30 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Oh shlt, now you've done it.......

 

Told ya'.......

[Coach Tuesday]

I think some of it is just, when you have an ok, not great young QB and your organization hasn't had success in a long while, you're kind of screwed.  You have to believe in the folks you've hired to develop said QB and you have to pay the going rate for what should be an ascending player at the most important position in pro sports, but your margin for error is really small and you could easily end up in QB purgatory - that's where the Giants are, along with the Dolphins, perhaps the Cowboys, and soon-to-be the 49ers.  You're almost better off with a bad QB than an average one in the salary cap era.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

29 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

L to Vikings ( very good team)

L to WAS on a last second FG **

W browns 

L to Cowboys by 5***

W Seahawks 

L to bengals in close game **

L to Eagles

bye week

 

They very easily could have beat Washington. This game they had their K injured so they got 3 TDs but had to go for 2 each time and failed on all 3.  Washington kicked only FGs. Late in the 4 th it was 18-18. Giants had the ball inside the 30 with 1st down they get to 4 th and 4. Try fail on 4 th does at WAS 22. A healthykicker….they would be up 24-18 with a FG

 

Against Cincinnati, it was 10-7 bengals early 4th. They missed 2 FG and failed on downs. In first half they gave up a red zone turnover.

 

Dallas game was close through. They had 2 red zone drives settling for 3 of 5 FG. One went 1st and goal. Late in game they failed on 4th down  with under 4 left in game

 

they are 2-5 but small margins they could be 4-3 

 

 

 

 

 

This is sounding a lot like ‘if they weren’t really bad in the red zone and prone to big turnovers they’d be a better team’ 😂. Well yea but they are those things because they’re a bad team lol 

 

the ‘if’ game gets pretty murky…maybe Washington knew they could be conservative and settle for fgs because the giants didn’t have a kicker as one example.  If you’re gonna un injure the giants kicker you change decision making for Washington too 

Edited October 21 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Daboll drove me nuts here, I couldn't wait for him to leave.  He was allergic to running the football, would call plays like he was more interested in being seen as some sort of guru or genius rather than making good football decisions, and was incredibly stubborn in sticking to what he wanted.  

 

Last year he is on the road back in Buffalo for the first time, on the goalline with the best RB in football and the only talented player on their entire offense.  He has literally time for one play to win the game needing the TD.  His starting QB is out.  Tyrod, who isn't known for seeing the field and passing, is his backup QB.  What does he do...drops Tyrod back taking away his legs (TT best asset) and throwing over the trenches instead of just hading the ball off to their best player to get one yard against a team notorious for not being good at stopping the run.  That is Daboll in a nut shell...like throwing a 30 yard wheel route on 4th and short to a FB who barely plays when your QB is Josh Allen.  Just stupid stuff all the time.  

 

So, its not a surprise to me to see this failing in NY personally.  I think the bigger surprise for me is how bad Schoen has been.  I really thought he would have taken more away from learning under Beane, but the moment he decided to pay Daniel Jones they put the death nail in their tenure there.  It cost them Barkley, but more importantly, it cost them a chance to rebuild and buy themselves some time during the rebuild where they didn't need to win right away.  Instead, they go and give all this money to a weak QB who not only isn't very good but may be more fragile than Tua and then spend big on Burns?  Like GM 101...you got a clean slate, clean house and rebuild...tweaking and failing will get you fired fast.  Rebuilding gets you time and a better shot a sustained success.  

 

 

[Doc Brown]

In hindsight at where that organization was with their commitment to the high pick investments in Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley neither one of them should've taken the job in 2022.  Gettleman was dumb enough to spend the 4th pick in the draft on a RB and then reach for a QB the next year in the first round.

[thenorthremembers]

30 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

It was really strange because Schoen just saw McDermott coming in and making the playoffs in his 1st year with Tyrod at QB.. then drafting the QB. Paying Jones made no sense.. it wasn't even needed to get that deal done. One of the most illogical decisions I've ever seen.

 

This was the first thing I thought of as well.  You literally just came from an organization who gave you the exact blue print on how to do it.   I am not sure who has done a worse job, Daboll or Schoen, but the roster is pretty bad.      They went out and traded picks and tons of money on a pass rusher like they were just a few moves away from a championship.   

 

The entire organization needs to be turned over and started up again.