the Daboll/Schoen regime - on the brink, it seems

[corta765]

14 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Speculation that Jones was extended due to ownership vs. management is based in large part on the bolded IMO. 

 

Another interesting aspect to the Giants drama is Daboll. He came in full of confidence and guns blazing - he publically beratedJones on the sidelines after a bad play a game or two into his first year - and then things got better. But he seems to have lost his swagger. Losing in this market can do it that you, but maybe with Jones he feels it's out of his control. 

 

Bottom line for me me is Jets and Giants are a mess and although the Bills still need to get over the hump living in the Jets/Giants marketplace has been a lot more enjoyable the past few years.

The Jets have always been a mess but the Giants are interesting because from Parcells until Coughlin was basically shown the door they were a very strong model type franchise. Not sure why ownership got so nutty later on with Coughlin as it has been instability central since and they seemingly keep getting more involved which historically is a very bad thing. I have always kind of thought ownership tied its horse to Manning over the team, Coughlin knew Manning was phasing out and they should move on and ownership said no which dominoed big time.

[Cash]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Doesnt matter what the owner wanted on the Jones deal.

 

The real mistake was Schoen being so bent on building around him this offseason instead of realizing what they actually had and starting to pivot away.

 

They have an out after this season on that contract. Anyone/everyone knew this should be Jones' last year.

 

Should have re-signed Barkley. Should have traded down in this draft and stockpiled picks in 2025 draft. Then, even if you are paying a RB big money, you get a QB on a rookie deal to offset it.

 

The second Schoen said "I'm not paying a QB $45M to hand off to a $13M RB" and meant that to justify why they let Barkley walk, I knew he was toast. They had it opposite.

 

Did he actually say that publicly?  (Or anything to that effect.)

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

Did he actually say that publicly?  (Or anything to that effect.)

 

Yes, it was on Hard Knocks. One sec, I'm sure we can google a quote...

 

 

edit: here it is

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10127118-giants-gm-on-saquon-barkley-daniel-jones-isnt-making-40m-to-hand-off-to-12m-rb

 

"You're paying the guy $40 million. It's not to hand the ball off to a $12 million back," Schoen said.

 

I was close

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by DrDawkinstein

[BigAl2526]

The success/failure of a GM/coaching regime is probably about 90% connected to making the right decision about quarterbacks.  Schoen and Daboll made the wrong decision on Daniel Jones and it's likely going to cost both of them their jobs.  Beane and McDermott have made right decisions about Josh Allen, both in selecting him and developing him, and are likely entrenched with the Bills for the better part of the next decade.

[JerseyBills]

5 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

I'm a casual listener, almost exclusively drive time, I go through spurts where I'll either tune in every day or not at all for a while. My guilty pleasure is tuning in for the Jets drama - the day after a bad loss is outstanding.  Evan's passion is great, but I liked Carton more when he was with the buttoned down Boomer. The two that I can't stand are Sal and BT, they're a clown show and I don't think I get any insight from them that I couldn't get from a drunk at the local bar.

 

I'll keep my ears perked for Steve from Clifton!

Lol agreed. BT and Sal are weak. I'm the same where I'll listen in spurts and ya I love the Jets drama, almost feel bad for them lol but they deserve it for all the trash talk all summer

 

Also something great, every Saturday morning Carton does a 1 hour gambling addiction show on wfan at either 8 or 9 am. 

 

If you're into that or interested,  it's a great listen. 

[billsfan89]

It almost hurt them overachieving in 2022. The Giants should have done what the Bills did in 2018 after they overachieved in 2017. Actually scrap the roster and keep building the team prudently. Keep a few core vets but don't buy into the mirage that was 2022. But they kind of doubled down on that roster and made some bad additions and then in 2023 predictably regressed. But unlike the 2019 Bills who shredded dead cap and accrued younger players the 2024 Giants were left with less assets to work with. Had Schoen/Daboll reset in 2023 it would have allowed them to be in a better position in 2024 to keep Barkley and add more pieces but they just failed to see through their previous success. 

 

The Giants are a mess and they are honestly better off letting go of Daboll and Schoen and "resetting" the clock so to speak by brining in a new regime to build around a newly drafted QB. It isn't like Daboll and Schoen have done much to prove that they deserve a second go around. After a very good year one it has been back to back losing season and not much in terms of building a roster. It isn't like the reason they aren't winning in 2024 is because of some unreasonable rash of injuries. They doubled down on a mediocre QB and an overachieving roster send them packing. 

[DapperCam]

I feel kind of bad for Daboll. He did pretty much as well as he could with that roster. The ultimate error will be personnel choices on offense. I’m not sure how much of a say ownership had in those.

[billsfan89]

38 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

The success/failure of a GM/coaching regime is probably about 90% connected to making the right decision about quarterbacks.  Schoen and Daboll made the wrong decision on Daniel Jones and it's likely going to cost both of them their jobs.  Beane and McDermott have made right decisions about Josh Allen, both in selecting him and developing him, and are likely entrenched with the Bills for the better part of the next decade.

 

It is funny how that is so very true. I would imagine that the difference between an average GM and a very good one in terms of drafting non-QB prospects is not that drastic. I do think McBeane hits on picks at a higher rate than the Vikings GM's or whatever other "average" GM has. But I don't think the gap is that wide. But QB is the premium of all premiums. It is why I think Atlanta getting both a solid better than average but not elite vet in Cousins while also drafting a prospect high up made sense even if ATL maybe did it a year earlier than they maybe "should" it is still the position you always want to be investing in or around. 

[Da webster guy]

Here's one for ya:

 

Look at all the coaches Brady made great who sucked as head coaches without him as their QB

Weiss

Mangini

Belichick

Crennel

Patricia

McDaniels

 

I'm probably forgetting some.   They all were fired head coaches once TB wasn't there to make them look good.   Josh did the same thing for Daboll and if he wasn't around McD would be back as a coordinator somewhere 100%.  You either get lucky with a franchise qb or you're fired in two years.

 

[Mr. WEO]

21 hours ago, TBBills Fan said:

 

That's why I wonder if the owner didn't just approve the deal but pushed for it?

 

Giving schoen the benefit of the doubt here. 

 

Because if Schoen went to Mara saying this is the deal, what do you think, he's got to be toast

 

 

They let Barkley go and paid Jones.  There's no chance both the GM and the HC were against those moves.  

 

Simply put, Daboll got them to the playoffs with Jones---and since he fancies himself a developer of QBs, he felt he could create a functional Josh Allen out of him. Turns out, Daboll is not that.  He's just a guy who has benefited from being around some of the best ever (BB, Saban, Josh Allen).  On his own, he's a bust.  He's Nate Hackett.

Edited 2 hours ago by Mr. WEO

[Andrew Son]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They let Barkley go and paid Jones.  There's no chance both the GM and the HC were against those moves.  

 

Simply put, Daboll got them to the playoffs with Jones---and since he fancies himself a developer of QBs, he felt he could create a functional Josh Allen out of him. Turns out, Daboll is not that.  He's just a guy who has benefited from being around some of the best ever (BB, Saban, Josh Allen).  On his own, he's a bust.  He's Nate Hackett.

Should be no surprise considering his alma mater 

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Son said:

Should be no surprise considering his alma mater 

 

don't be down on the Yellowjackets!!

[frostbitmic]

When hired the Giants thought Daboll could develop Jones like he did Allen. Looks more like Allen made Daboll more than the other way around.

[SoTier]

 

11 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

When hired the Giants thought Daboll could develop Jones like he did Allen. Looks more like Allen made Daboll more than the other way around.

 

I think the old saw, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", applies to Daboll and Jones.  Some guys have it, and some guys don't.  The best QB coach ever couldn't make Jones a decent NFL starter.   That Daboll got Jones to look like a "reasonable facsimile" of a good NFL QB is amazing given Jones lack of talent. 

[Andrew Son]

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

I think the old saw, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", applies to Daboll and Jones.  Some guys have it, and some guys don't.  The best QB coach ever couldn't make Jones a decent NFL starter.   That Daboll got Jones to look like a "reasonable facsimile" of a good NFL QB is amazing given Jones lack of talent. 

I think the problem is more of the decision to actually invest in Jones as the future.

[TBBills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They let Barkley go and paid Jones.  There's no chance both the GM and the HC were against those moves.  

 

Simply put, Daboll got them to the playoffs with Jones---and since he fancies himself a developer of QBs, he felt he could create a functional Josh Allen out of him. Turns out, Daboll is not that.  He's just a guy who has benefited from being around some of the best ever (BB, Saban, Josh Allen).  On his own, he's a bust.  He's Nate Hackett.

Damn calling a man Nate hackett...did he hang the wife or something?  

 

Calling a O coordinator hackett or a QB Peterman is like spitting in a grown man's face!

[LarryMadman]

I think Daboll has proven he can get the job done when he has a competent QB, Jones is not a competent QB, that said he errored on the decision thinking Jones could develope into a competent QB and will probably cost him his job in NY. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

13 minutes ago, TBBills Fan said:

Damn calling a man Nate hackett...did he hang the wife or something?  

 

Calling a O coordinator hackett or a QB Peterman is like spitting in a grown man's face!

Mr. WEO will have no truck with sympathy.  A viscous, spiteful, straight razor totin' poster. 😉

*
There's two malapropriated quotes in my answer.  See if anyone here can figure them out. 😁