Defense: 1st Half vs 2nd Half - What is going on?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, JMM said:

The slow starts are a documented fact and have been discussed by both the media, this board AND the team and the players themselves. Look its obvious you're a Mcd fanboy and that's fine. We will agree to disagree. To not be able to admit that coaching is involved in the issues with this team in this area is simply denial. 

 

I think they need to dictate more, create more negative plays.  Be it blitzing, or doing something differently than - reacting to their motion, reacting to their protections, etc.  You run the risk of giving up big plays, but game scripts lately have been very similar in that they use motion to one side and run to the other, or PA one side and roll to the other.  

[SCBills]

Kinda cringed at the Rousseau quote of “they eventually have to start running their normal stuff”…

 

Ok, but we can’t keep spotting teams 10-14 points before our Defense gets its act together.

 

We saw what that does to the Offensive game script against Houston & Baltimore. 

[Coach Tuesday]

14 minutes ago, JMM said:

A fanboy says he goes strictly on facts. Lol. Suuure. 

 

Get a room guys.

[Matt_In_NH]

11 minutes ago, JMM said:

A fanboy says he goes strictly on facts. Lol. Suuure. 

Continue with the names....it just reflects on you.   

 

Did you actually look at the links I provided, how do you reconcile the Bills have this terrible slow stat problem, yet they have the second most wins, most points scored and least points against since 2020?  If they always have slow starts wouldnt you expect point differential to be closer or have more losses  If you are being truly honest would you say maybe the slow start talk is possible overblown?  Curious if you are actually open to discussing this logically vs just throwing out names.

 

Since you dont want McDermott, who would you replace him with?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Kinda cringed at the Rousseau quote of “they eventually have to start running their normal stuff”…

 

Ok, but we can’t keep spotting teams 10-14 points before our Defense gets its act together.

 

We saw what that does to the Offensive game script against Houston & Baltimore. 

 

I guess they don't "have" to, but they will to some extent.  You can't run the same play action pass a bunch of times, your QB is going to get lit up on a naked bootleg one of those times.  They schemed open a bunch of short play action stuff, and some good zone beaters.  But again, you see that same lineup and they run the same route concepts you are opening yourself up to a play, not to mention the more you keep throwing short the more the safeties creep.  

[Matt_In_NH]

9 minutes ago, JMM said:

 Nope, Matt_In_NH says that would coaching is responsible to some extent, that game planning is part of coaching. Nope they have scored the most points over years now, coaching has nothing to do with any shortcomings ...nope nope...

I would love for you to quote where I said this.  If you want to talk about 13 seconds, and the defense getting smashed by KC last year and Cinci the year before in the playoffs, I am here for that discussion.....that does not align with your narrative on my point of view though.

[Mat68]

Imo Brady needs to do a better job scripting a first down and later on calling a play to get the first down.   Felt the routes and plays were too far down the field.  On 3rd down to start a drive get the first down. Do that every thing will click.  Too many 3rd and medium and they were calling up deep passes.  

[Augie]

32 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I go by facts, you go by uncheck emotions.

 

What’s the opposite of a fanboy? 

 

Just using that term in an attempt to demean is telling. 

[2003Contenders]

The slow starts on defense have always been a staple of McD's coaching philosophy. He has always come out on the first series or two in a somewhat base, bend-but-don't-break scheme -- waiting to see what the opposing offense is doing and then adjusting from there. Given his success rate, it is hard to argue that this is a bad strategy. The real key is that the offense needs to come out more on fire -- and please STOP these early-down play calls that are not designed to get more than a few yards, placing them in critical 3rd-down situations.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

This team has had an issue for YEARS  now with slow starts under McDermott. The players have changed to some extent. This is not " hey they had a bad half" discussion.  This is a proven trend. That's on coaching. 

 

This isn't true by the way.

 

If they finish outside the top TEN in first quarter point scored this season (they are currently 14th) it will be the first time since 2019 and they were top FIVE twice in 2021 and 2022. 

 

On first quarter points allowed they were bad in 2022 and only average in 2023 but they were BEST in the league in 2021 and 2020 and THIRD in 2019. 

 

So no, they haven't had issues for years with slow starts.

Edited October 21 by GunnerBill

[mjt328]

Some teams like to adjust their gameplan heavily from week to week, depending on the strengths/weaknesses of their opponent.

The Bills are very reluctant to break from their normal scheme, under any circumstances.  Nickel.  Four man rush.  Very little blitzing.  Mostly zone coverage.  This kind of defense is naturally going to be vulnerable to the run, and short passes.

 

My belief is that McDermott likes to come out of the gate with very "vanilla" playcalling, similar to what teams would call in preseason.  That way he can get a general feel for what the other team is trying to do, without blowing all his best stuff early.  If the other team has done their homework, they know exactly where and how to attack us.  If they can stay disciplined with the run and short passes, they can usually move the ball early.

 

As the game goes on, a few things usually happen.  One is that our opponent starts getting nervous/impatient about keeping up with Josh Allen and the offense.  They gradually start breaking away from the run and short passes, which of course plays directly into our strengths.  This is what McDermott means by "complimentary" football.  The second is that our coaches break from that vanilla playcalling.  There are some small adjustments, and the occasional blitz.  We continue to run the same basic scheme throughout the game, but get way more creative with how it's disguised.

 

All of this works 70-75% of the time, and the Bills come out on top.  I just wish McDermott would come up with something different for the postseason.  Teams like the Chiefs, Bengals and Ravens are too disciplined and talented to break from the gameplan.  They know our weak points and they will continue to attack it for 4 quarters.

 

[HappyDays]

 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

Yea I think on offense even yesterday some of it is just execution mistakes. Cooper drops the pass. They get a penalty on the 2nd drive. Its that stuff they have to clean up. Though I do think Brady should self scout his first 15. Not convinced he is getting the balance right there so far.

[Coach Tuesday]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I think on offense even yesterday some of it is just execution mistakes. Cooper drops the pass. They get a penalty on the 2nd drive. Its that stuff they have to clean up. Though I do think Brady should self scout his first 15. Not convinced he is getting the balance right there so far.

 

Agreed - they aggressively take the ball after winning the coin toss, Titans are on the road with a backup QB and their top CB injured, but then like you or someone else said they come out and call two failed runs up the gut and have to throw on third and long (and drop the throw), punt.  That is just not how you start fast at home (esp. where the other team's strength is up the middle on defense).

[HappyDays]

As for solutions... maybe be willing to play more man early on? I know that does not match up particularly well with the skill set of our CBs, but anything is better than letting offenses come out and easily pick up chunk yardage through our predictable zone spacing. If it's gonna be that easy, at least make their guys beat our guys.

 

Also I think we should be telling the DL to be a bit more conservative early on. Multiple teams this year have taken advantage of our penetration style defense. It's getting us burned on draws and screens especially early in games. If our players aren't going to recognize when the OL is purposefully letting them get upfield, the coaches need to adjust their style. There's no reason it should take us an entire half to make these adjustments when every team is killing us in the same way.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agreed - they aggressively take the ball after winning the coin toss, Titans are on the road with a backup QB and their top CB injured, but then like you or someone else said they come out and call two failed runs up the gut and have to throw on third and long (and drop the throw), punt.  That is just not how you start fast at home (esp. where the other team's strength is up the middle on defense).

 

Just to correct we got 5 yards on 1st down and 4 on 2nd down. It was 3rd and a long 1. 

 

But otherwise agree totally with your sentiment.

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

As for solutions... maybe be willing to play more man early on? I know that does not match up particularly well with the skill set of our CBs, but anything is better than letting offenses come out and easily pick up chunk yardage through our predictable zone spacing. If it's gonna be that easy, at least make their guys beat our guys.

 

Also I think we should be telling the DL to be a bit more conservative early on. Multiple teams this year have taken advantage of our penetration style defense. It's getting us burned on draws and screens especially early in games. If our players aren't going to recognize when the OL is purposefully letting them get upfield, the coaches need to adjust their style. There's no reason it should take us an entire half to make these adjustments when every team is killing us in the same way.

 

Yup I got the impression that the Titans' entire gameplan on offense was to give some kind of fake or misdirection on every single play, and in the first half it worked like a charm.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

As for solutions... maybe be willing to play more man early on? I know that does not match up particularly well with the skill set of our CBs, but anything is better than letting offenses come out and easily pick up chunk yardage through our predictable zone spacing. If it's gonna be that easy, at least make their guys beat our guys.

 

Also I think we should be telling the DL to be a bit more conservative early on. Multiple teams this year have taken advantage of our penetration style defense. It's getting us burned on draws and screens especially early in games. If our players aren't going to recognize when the OL is purposefully letting them get upfield, the coaches need to adjust their style. There's no reason it should take us an entire half to make these adjustments when every team is killing us in the same way.

 

It isn't true to say it took them a whole half to adjust. The adjustment happened right after the Titans TD drive (which started 1st Q and finished early 2nd). 

 

Between that and the last play of the half where they had 33 yards to Ridley with the Bills defending a potential HM the Titans ran 13 plays for 22 yards. Basically after their touchdown drive the Bills made the adjustments and shut them down the rest of the way.

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't true to say it took them a whole half to adjust. The adjustment happened right after the Titans TD drive (which started 1st Q and finished early 2nd). 

 

Between that and the last play of the half where they had 33 yards to Ridley with the Bills defending a potential HM the Titans ran 13 plays for 22 yards. Basically after their touchdown drive the Bills made the adjustments and shut them down the rest of the way.

 

That's true but they also benefitted by a couple of bad drops by Ridley and an insane 4th down call by Callahan.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't true to say it took them a whole half to adjust. The adjustment happened right after the Titans TD drive (which started 1st Q and finished early 2nd). 

 

Between that and the last play of the half where they had 33 yards to Ridley with the Bills defending a potential HM the Titans ran 13 plays for 22 yards. Basically after their touchdown drive the Bills made the adjustments and shut them down the rest of the way.

This feels like how it normally goes if we’re looking at a big sample size…we seem to give up a scripted drive td early then lock it down pretty quickly. This year there’s been a few bad longer stretches but I think some of it is injury related