Defense: 1st Half vs 2nd Half - What is going on?

[uninja]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Was kinda similar to the Cardinals game.

It has definitely been a trend in 4 of the 6 games this year and it’s risky being a second half team. 

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

I'd like to think we're seen as a powerhouse and teams are bringing their absolute A-game at us... until we inevitably kick the snot out of them. 
 

yeah, I'll go with that.  )

[Whkfc]

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I have no answer, but when we were down 10-0 , I put in a large bet for Bills -3 , +155, for a decent amount..

 

For some reason I have no explanation for, they've been starting awful but make phenomenal adjustments at halftime. 

 

It's definitely a concern,  can't continue to start slow on both sides

Damn wish I thought of that. I had a great day however picked every game correctly except kc san fran. Had some great parlays this week. Did a 2 dollar parlay on every 1oclock game that won me 100. Overall cleared about 350 on 50 in bets took some buyout I wish I hadn't but no need to get greedy. Profit is profit I always say.

[GunnerBill]

What the Bills do on defense is pretty well established. And teams come out with all the stuff they have been working on all week to counter - all their clever design and their tendency breakers - and they have some success with it. But the Bills soon cotton on and adjust to take that stuff away and then it becomes less a gameplan game and more an execution of fundamental scheme game and once that happens against the bad to average teams the Billd have an advantage. But they have to find some way to tackle the slow starts. I suspect that means breaking some of their own tendencies early to mix it up and get away from the opposition knowing what they are going to get in terms of defensive looks those first few drives.

Edited October 21 by GunnerBill

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

I just said the same in markedly fewer words.  Please, do tell us about what the Bills do on defense that is pretty well established, though.  

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

What the Bills do on defense is pretty well established. And teams come out with all the stuff they have been working on all week to counter - all their clever design and their tendency breakers - and they have some success with it. But the Bills soon cotton on and adjust to take that stuff away and then it becomes less a gameplan game and more an execution of fundamental scheme game and once that happens against the bad to average teams the Billd have an advantage. But they have to find some way to tackle the slow starts. I suspect that means breaking some of their own tendencies early to mix it up and get away from the opposition knowing what they are going to get in terms of defensive looks those first few drives.

 

I totally agree with this.  
 

I will also add that it is not even a halftime adjustment for all the people that say the coaches don’t adjust during the game - you see them making adjustments and honing in on other teams starting by the end of the first quarter and the second quarter.  
 

The same issue occurs on offense where they have a set run of plays scripted, but it looks like Josh wants it to happen similar to what he is expecting and doesn’t follow his check down rules and the offense struggles for the first quarter until he gets into the flow reading the defense.

 

You can’t really even say this is a McD issue because a few years ago it was exactly the opposite.  The Bills would come out and score nearly 100% of the time on the first couple of drives build a lead and stop other teams most of the first half.  Then everyone complained because after halftime the adjustments made by other teams worked for the 3rd quarter and the games would tighten up - both the offense and defense struggled and then the 4th quarter hit and boom they would salt the game away.

 

I think it is really just the NFL - Most games teams have flow and then lose it and other teams look lost and then move forward.  I don’t think it is as pronounced with other teams because with the Bills when both the offense and defense are working close games become blowouts quickly and that is what you are seeing.

[Matt_In_NH]

6 hours ago, JMM said:

How about have good game plans to start? Not get outcoached and have to make crazy adjustments.  How about have your team ready to play?

Who are you firing today?

[Pete]

Offense, and defense.  Both units started very slowly against the Cards, Texans, and Oilers.  Do opposing teams outplan McDermott, Brady, and Bobby, and we make adjustments imn second half?  How do we prepare the Bills for a 60 minute game?

Edited October 21 by Pete

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I totally agree with this.  
 

I will also add that it is not even a halftime adjustment for all the people that say the coaches don’t adjust during the game - you see them making adjustments and honing in on other teams starting by the end of the first quarter and the second quarter.  
 

The same issue occurs on offense where they have a set run of plays scripted, but it looks like Josh wants it to happen similar to what he is expecting and doesn’t follow his check down rules and the offense struggles for the first quarter until he gets into the flow reading the defense.

 

You can’t really even say this is a McD issue because a few years ago it was exactly the opposite.  The Bills would come out and score nearly 100% of the time on the first couple of drives build a lead and stop other teams most of the first half.  Then everyone complained because after halftime the adjustments made by other teams worked for the 3rd quarter and the games would tighten up - both the offense and defense struggled and then the 4th quarter hit and boom they would salt the game away.

 

I think it is really just the NFL - Most games teams have flow and then lose it and other teams look lost and then move forward.  I don’t think it is as pronounced with other teams because with the Bills when both the offense and defense are working close games become blowouts quickly and that is what you are seeing.

 

Yea I don't think it is a McDermott issue - though of course ultimately the buck stops with him - so much as it is a bit of a sign of the inexperienced coordinators. 

 

Brady in particular has gotta do a better job with his first 15. At the moment I feel like his first 15 are mainly used as a way of establishing to the opponent that the Bills are willing to run it at you if you make them. But run run pass punt; pass pass pass punt; run run pass punt - was the first three drives yesterday and I feel like that has been a common combination on early drives this year. When Dorsey had the O cooking in early 2022 he was a fan of the 1st down pass, 2nd down run combination and I wonder now with a better run game whether Joe could mix some more of that in. We have also got away from the shifts and motion that was so successful in the early weeks and for me we have to get back to it.

 

On D I just think break tendency a bit earlier. Maybe run more cover 3 on those early drives and less 2 deep shell and dare teams to beat you over the top a bit. I know it is riskier but might just get teams out of their nicely scripted opening 15 if they think they have a chance for an explosive and maybe they overthink, take a penalty, make a mental error, throw a pick etc. Once the game is in its flow they mix it up well but they are a bit predictable early.

Edited October 21 by GunnerBill

[Rochesterfan]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I don't think it is a McDermott issue - though of course ultimately the buck stops with him - so much as it is a bit of a sign of the inexperienced coordinators. 

 

Brady in particular has gotts do a better job with his first 15. At the moment I feel like his first 15 are mainly used as a way of establishing to the opponent that the Bills are willing to run it at you if you make them. But run run pass punt; pass pass pass punt; run run pass punt - was the first three drives yesterday and I feel like that has been a common combination on early drives this year. When Dorsey had the O cooking in early 2022 he was a fan of the 1st down pass, 2nd down run combination and I wonder now with a better run game whether Joe could mix some more of that in. We have also got away from the ***** and motion that was so successful in the early weeks and for me we have to get back to it.

 

On D I just think break tendency a bit earlier. Maybe run more cover 3 on those early drives and less 2 deep shell and dare teams to beat you over the top a bit. I know it is riskier but might just get teams out of their nicely scripted opening 15 if they think they have a chance for an explosive and maybe they overthink, take a penalty, make a mental error, throw a pick etc. Once the game is in its flow they mix it up well but they are a bit predictable early.

 

I agree and although I also think it would be nice to see some major tendency breakers early in games - I do wonder if some of that is on purpose and something that they have learned over the years.

 

I think the staff believes if they play base normal defense early - they can see exactly how teams want to attack their defense and how they will react and then exploit that later.  If they break tendencies early - they do not see the response to things like simulated pressure and then have to adjust later.  
 

I believe that is what happened to the team years ago.  With Dabol and Frazier - experienced coaches - they broke tendencies early and then hit lulls as they and teams adapted - see 3rd quarter struggles.  I believe they have now overcompensated and that has lead to early game struggles.

 

Neither approach is great against top tier teams and that has lead to struggles, but the current approach is really bad if they are outplayed and out muscled like against Baltimore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I agree and although I also think it would be nice to see some major tendency breakers early in games - I do wonder if some of that is on purpose and something that they have learned over the years.

 

I think the staff believes if they play base normal defense early - they can see exactly how teams want to attack their defense and how they will react and then exploit that later.  If they break tendencies early - they do not see the response to things like simulated pressure and then have to adjust later.  
 

I believe that is what happened to the team years ago.  With Dabol and Frazier - experienced coaches - they broke tendencies early and then hit lulls as they and teams adapted - see 3rd quarter struggles.  I believe they have now overcompensated and that has lead to early game struggles.

 

Neither approach is great against top tier teams and that has lead to struggles, but the current approach is really bad if they are outplayed and out muscled like against Baltimore.

 

Yea Baltimore are an elite level team and on the day they outcoached, outmuscled and out executed the Bills. They played a top team who were firing on all cylinders and the Bills got whacked. I think Houston is a better example of their "let's see what they have early and then we will have an advantage late" working to an extent. They just couldn't pull it out at the end and they'd want, I'm sure, to have been better on offense first half. 

 

I don't think it is a big adjustment they need to make. But a few tweaks to try and get off to quicker starts are required IMO.

[colin]

whatever it is on the coaches side, it is clearly impacting the players too.  josh was wound up tight to start, the backs (cook really) was slow to get going out of the hole, cooper dropped a 3rd down conversion (first JA pass ever, so maybe that's not really an issue).  on d, it generally looks like the d line not getting anything going (i presume it's because of blocking scheme vs our rush, because they are all fresh) and our lbs and dbs just tend to bite on underneath stuff.

 

the big pass to nico vs houston and the run by henry vs baltimore are great examples.  one was early and bishop blew his assignment and it was just so easy for their o, and w the henry run, they had a perfect play called and we lined up like suckers and let it go for nearly 90 and 6!

 

i think the solution involves getting the players better prepared -- they are thinking too much and it causes hesitation to start, and i think there needs to be a little more creativity on both sides of the ball.  instead of disguising or whatever all the time on D, maybe show some different alignments, and on o i think we need a script with some creative audibles (other teams always seem to have them).

 

one extra stop early and maybe one extra good drive on o would make these games a lot less stressful, and would have us at 6-1 with our loss vs baltimore prolly looking less disgusting.

[SoonerBillsFan]

I don't like the slow starts, BUT... let's be thankful they are starting to show good adjustments at halftime.

[JMM]

4 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Who are you firing today?

Hmm, I didn't realize criticism of a constant coaching issue means I want someone fired today. I'm on record now that I believe that in order to win the SB this organization will eventually need to move on from McDermott. Ok back to your narrative....

[Matt_In_NH]

Just now, JMM said:

Hmm, I didn't realize criticism of a constant coaching issue means I want someone fired today. I'm on record now that I believe that in order to win the SB this organization will eventually need to move on from McDermott. Ok back to your narrative....

Frankly, You are the one with the narrative....there is an insatiable desire for every play to be the perfect play call and if the play does not go well its the coaches fault.   As if the guys on the other side even if lesser than opponents are not highly skilled athletes and coaches in their own right who every resource to make a gameplan for themselves.  At the end of the day, the score was 34-10.    I do understand the slow starts and that gameplans can have an impact that but you completely ignore that the players have some culpability here.  Take the first drive, 3-1, Allen puts the ball right on the receiver for an easy first down and the coaching staff just dropped the ball?

 

Not saying the coaches cannot improve here and there at all, just that your expectations are impossible to meet.  All teams have quarters/halfs/games when they are anemic.  But when its the Bills its just the tired narrative that its all the coaches doing.  

[Mat68]

The Titans offense was propped up by the Bills offense inability to stay on the field.  Once the offense got going the momentum flipped.  Overall, Mcdermott does a good job of figuring out an offense and scheming and covering it up.  Only team they struggled with all game was Baltimore but that had as much to do with missing guys and game script as it did with scheme. 

Edited October 21 by Mat68

[JMM]

8 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Frankly, You are the one with the narrative....there is an insatiable desire for every play to be the perfect play call and if the play does not go well its the coaches fault.   As if the guys on the other side even if lesser than opponents are not highly skilled athletes and coaches in their own right who every resource to make a gameplan for themselves.  At the end of the day, the score was 34-10.    I do understand the slow starts and that gameplans can have an impact that but you completely ignore that the players have some culpability here.  Take the first drive, 3-1, Allen puts the ball right on the receiver for an easy first down and the coaching staff just dropped the ball?

 

Not saying the coaches cannot improve here and there at all, just that your expectations are impossible to meet.  All teams have quarters/halfs/games when they are anemic.  But when its the Bills its just the tired narrative that its all the coaches doing.  

This team has had an issue for YEARS  now with slow starts under McDermott. The players have changed to some extent. This is not " hey they had a bad half" discussion.  This is a proven trend. That's on coaching. 

[Matt_In_NH]

7 minutes ago, JMM said:

This team has had an issue for YEARS  now with slow starts under McDermott. The players have changed to some extent. This is not " hey they had a bad half" discussion.  This is a proven trend. That's on coaching. 

The team has the second best record in the NFL since 2020....."years"   How significant of a problem is this really?  They have like the most points scored and least points against in that timeframe.  I cannot image what their output would be if they did not always start soooooo slow.   So you say they have slow starts, do you have data that backs that up or is it a "feeling"?  How do you reconcile the slow starts and the facts from the links below?  How does such a poorly coached team have the most points scored and least points against since 2020...YEARS?

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-wins-since-2020-nfl

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-points-scored-since-2020-nfl-team

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-defense-fewest-points-allowed-per-game-since-2020

Edited October 21 by Matt_In_NH

[JMM]

3 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The team has the second best record in the NFL since 2020....."years"   How significant of a problem is this really?  They have like the most points scored and least points against in that timeframe.  I cannot image what their output would be if they did not always start soooooo slow.   So you say they have slow starts, do you have data that backs that up or is it a "feeling"?  How do you reconcile the slow starts and the facts from the links below?  How does such a poorly coached team have the most points scored and least points against since 2020...YEARS?

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-wins-since-2020-nfl

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-points-scored-since-2020-nfl-team

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-team-defense-fewest-points-allowed-per-game-since-2020

The slow starts are a documented fact and have been discussed by both the media, this board AND the team and the players themselves. Look its obvious you're a Mcd fanboy and that's fine. We will agree to disagree. To not be able to admit that coaching is involved in the issues with this team in this area is simply denial. 

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, JMM said:

The slow starts are a documented fact and have been discussed by both the media, this board AND the team and the players themselves. Look its obvious you're a Mcd fanboy and that's fine. We will agree to disagree. To not be able to admit that coaching is involved in the issues with this team in this area is simply denial. 

I go by facts, you go by uncheck emotions.