Defense: 1st Half vs 2nd Half - What is going on?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

That's true but they also benefitted by a couple of bad drops by Ridley and an insane 4th down call by Callahan.

 

Oh yea obviously when it is that awful that is in part execution on the offense as well. But I was just responding to the idea that it took until halftime to adjust. They adjusted on defense early 2nd Quarter. 

 

And agree the 4th down call was nuts.

[Boatdrinks]

13 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Yup I got the impression that the Titans' entire gameplan on offense was to give some kind of fake or misdirection on every single play, and in the first half it worked like a charm.

Not surprising , as we’ve been getting gashed by those types of plays since @BAL game. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This isn't true by the way.

 

If they finish outside the top TEN in first quarter point scored this season (they are currently 14th) it will be the first time since 2019 and they were top FIVE twice in 2021 and 2022. 

 

On first quarter points allowed they were bad in 2022 and only average in 2023 but they were BEST in the league in 2021 and 2020 and THIRD in 2019. 

 

So no, they haven't had issues for years with slow starts.

Yea we seem to be worse early but it’s usually we’re good early and even better late so context is important.  This year has been a little bumpier than usual though so I guess we’ll see how it goes lol

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 hours ago, colin said:

whatever it is on the coaches side, it is clearly impacting the players too.  josh was wound up tight to start, the backs (cook really) was slow to get going out of the hole, cooper dropped a 3rd down conversion (first JA pass ever, so maybe that's not really an issue).  on d, it generally looks like the d line not getting anything going (i presume it's because of blocking scheme vs our rush, because they are all fresh) and our lbs and dbs just tend to bite on underneath stuff.

 

the big pass to nico vs houston and the run by henry vs baltimore are great examples.  one was early and bishop blew his assignment and it was just so easy for their o, and w the henry run, they had a perfect play called and we lined up like suckers and let it go for nearly 90 and 6!

 

i think the solution involves getting the players better prepared -- they are thinking too much and it causes hesitation to start, and i think there needs to be a little more creativity on both sides of the ball.  instead of disguising or whatever all the time on D, maybe show some different alignments, and on o i think we need a script with some creative audibles (other teams always seem to have them).

 

one extra stop early and maybe one extra good drive on o would make these games a lot less stressful, and would have us at 6-1 with our loss vs baltimore prolly looking less disgusting.

Probably up to personal interpretation and there’s no ‘wrong’ answer but I think a lot of what you mentioned up top is execution more than coaching (not that the coaching can’t improve too lol)

That cooper drop killed a drive, a Dawkins false start erased a 5 yard gain on the previous play and killed a drive, and a bad sack where our oline got whooped killed a drive early in the game..  People were going off about first down runs in the gameday thread but the first down runs were setting us up nicely when the offense was struggling early and we still botched it 

 

everyone hates running the ball but it really wore that titans front 7 out making everything easier too as the game went on 

[HappyDays]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't true to say it took them a whole half to adjust. The adjustment happened right after the Titans TD drive (which started 1st Q and finished early 2nd). 

 

Between that and the last play of the half where they had 33 yards to Ridley with the Bills defending a potential HM the Titans ran 13 plays for 22 yards. Basically after their touchdown drive the Bills made the adjustments and shut them down the rest of the way.

 

I didn't mean just in this game, I mean in general. 27th in EPA per play in the 1st half is abysmal, and the stark difference in the 2nd half indicates that we can and should be much better than that early on. I can even forgive them a bit for the Titans game specifically - having to adjust at the last minute from a Will Levis led offense to Mason Rudolph may have impacted whatever game plan they had to start. But on the season as a whole there is a larger problem there.

[GunnerBill]

 

For sure they have to be better early on in games. I think the pattern has been dreadful 1st quarter, sort of average 2nd quarter, very good 2nd half. But they haven't just sat back to halftime and waited before adjusting. That is my point.

Edited October 21 by GunnerBill

[Mikie2times]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I don't think it is a McDermott issue - though of course ultimately the buck stops with him - so much as it is a bit of a sign of the inexperienced coordinators. 

 

Brady in particular has gotta do a better job with his first 15. At the moment I feel like his first 15 are mainly used as a way of establishing to the opponent that the Bills are willing to run it at you if you make them. But run run pass punt; pass pass pass punt; run run pass punt - was the first three drives yesterday and I feel like that has been a common combination on early drives this year. When Dorsey had the O cooking in early 2022 he was a fan of the 1st down pass, 2nd down run combination and I wonder now with a better run game whether Joe could mix some more of that in. We have also got away from the shifts and motion that was so successful in the early weeks and for me we have to get back to it.

 

On D I just think break tendency a bit earlier. Maybe run more cover 3 on those early drives and less 2 deep shell and dare teams to beat you over the top a bit. I know it is riskier but might just get teams out of their nicely scripted opening 15 if they think they have a chance for an explosive and maybe they overthink, take a penalty, make a mental error, throw a pick etc. Once the game is in its flow they mix it up well but they are a bit predictable early.

How is McDermott/coaching not the issue? My post was about defense specifically and at the end you specifically say reasons that we are performing poorly that are directly related to coaching. I'm very happy about the 2nd half adjustments but after a 3rd of the season is complete and teams are coming out every game and picking apart our defense if it doesn't dawn on our coaching staff to adjust, it's just not acceptable right?

Edited October 21 by Mikie2times

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

How is McDermott/coaching not the issue? My post was about defense specifically and at the end you specifically say reasons that we are performing poorly that are directly related to coaching. I'm very happy about the 2nd half adjustments but after a 3rd of the season is complete and teams are coming out every game and picking apart our defense if it doesn't dawn on our coaching staff to adjust, it's just not acceptable right?

 

Read what I wrote in the first paragraph. It answers your question. 

[Udubalum07]

Without Coop's drop on the opening 3rd and 1, I do wonder if they wouldn't have found a better flow on offense much earlier in the game, but luckily they have the fire power to go 34 unanswered including 27 in the second half alone. 

[Coach Tuesday]

6 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think the staff believes if they play base normal defense early - they can see exactly how teams want to attack their defense and how they will react and then exploit that later.  If they break tendencies early - they do not see the response to things like simulated pressure and then have to adjust later.  

My biggest issue with this approach on D is that it lets young/backup QBs get into a rhythm and gain confidence early in games.  Skylar Thompson in the playoffs for example.  

[Mikie2times]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Read what I wrote in the first paragraph. It answers your question. 

I don't know what you're saying. The first paragraph is about offense. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I don't know what you're saying. The first paragraph is about offense. 

 

No it isn't. The first paragraph reads:

 

Yea I don't think it is a McDermott issue - though of course ultimately the buck stops with him - so much as it is a bit of a sign of the inexperienced coordinators. 

 

There is then a para about what I think is going wrong early on O and one about what I think is going wrong early on D.

Edited October 21 by GunnerBill

[colin]

22 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

My biggest issue with this approach on D is that it lets young/backup QBs get into a rhythm and gain confidence early in games.  Skylar Thompson in the playoffs for example.  

 

our d got trucked badly vs baltimore, but bmore has pure cheeks pass d.  not being able to get a single thing on passing the ball really shows our corches were out to lunch in a sad and big way that game.  yes, we didn't have cooper etc etc, but we can't just get pantsed every time an opposing coach changes a single thing.

[Mikie2times]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No it isn't. The first paragraph reads:

 

Yea I don't think it is a McDermott issue - though of course ultimately the buck stops with him - so much as it is a bit of a sign of the inexperienced coordinators. 

 

There is then a para about what I think is going wrong early on O and one about what I think is going wrong early on D.

You think McD is letting Babich create game plans for the first half with no input? 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

We have a rookie DC that everyone wanted the HC to leave alone.

 

It’s called growing pains. 

[ddaryl]

14 hours ago, JMM said:

How about have good game plans to start? Not get outcoached and have to make crazy adjustments.  How about have your team ready to play?

 

 

We also are seeing a turnover in personel, and a new DC.

 

Yes would like to see more consistency in the 1st half, but the ability to make those 2nd half adjustments is very notable.

 

But agree the 1st half has to get better on allu sides of the ball

Edited October 21 by ddaryl

[PromoTheRobot]

15 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I have no answer, but when we were down 10-0 , I put in a large bet for Bills -3 , +155, for a decent amount..

 

For some reason I have no explanation for, they've been starting awful but make phenomenal adjustments at halftime. 

 

It's definitely a concern,  can't continue to start slow on both sides

 

15 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Was kinda similar to the Cardinals game.

 

It's the NFL. Teams game plan well. Bills are caught off guard. Thankfully they can adjust. 

[Draconator]

16 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

How are we getting caught off guard so frequently in the first half? The numbers are crazy at this point.

 

First Half

236 plays

1,402 yards = 200.28 Yards Per Game  

95 points = 13.57 per game

5.94 Yards Per Play

 

Second Half

224 plays

910 yards = 130 Yards Per Game

33 points = 4.71 per game

4.06 Yards Per Play

 

It seems as though that we are somehow surprised by teams coming right at us in the run game. We get completely gashed. Then we make adjustments in the 2nd half and we totally shut it down (in all but the Ravens game). We see more pressures getting home as well. Our 2nd half defense has been completely dominating all year while our first half defense has been below average, even bad.  Look at some of these trends below in addition to the numbers. 

 

-4 of 7 opponents have scored 17 or more in the first half

-5 of 7 opponents have over 200 yards in the first half 

 

-Only 2 teams have even got to 7 in the second half

-0 of 7 teams have gained 175 yards in the second half

 

Why can't you just be happy with a good win?

Are you every happy?

[GASabresIUFan]

1st half vs 2nd half

 

1st half - bad game plan

2nd half - good adjustments

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Draconator said:

Why can't you just be happy with a good win?

Are you every happy?

 

Maybe briefly if McD gets fired? You know, the guy with the best winning % in team history? The guy who has the second best winning % in professional US sports in recent years. Yeah, firing that coach would probably make him happy. 

 

I hated the start as much as anyone. But it sure felt good to see things turn around and watch Josh, Coleman and Cooper make plays. It felt good again and I enjoyed watching. A lot to work on, but it was fun to watch again. I want to see the “Good Bills” show up in the playoffs! 

 

.

Edited October 21 by Augie