Where's Cole Bishop?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Lets not forget that Rapp is playing well this season.  He basically won the Jets game for us.  Playing behind Rapp as a rookie is not a failure in my opinion.  I don't think either Rapp or Bishop is suited for the Hamlin role in this defense.  

 

I agree with this too. If you play Bishop for Hamlin you are moving Rapp as the vet to the centre field role. Although arguably with us playing so much 2 high this year to protect both safeties the difference is less important than in the Poyer / Hyde era.

[gonzo1105]

16 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Do you see him as a FS?  Do you see Rapp as a FS?  This is where I’m confused.  Rapp is likely our SS for the next 2 seasons (after this season).  I always saw Bishop as a SS.  Did they really plan on moving one of them and playing them side by side?  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

I think ideally you would line him up in the box and let him man up a TE or a RB and Blitz him. He’s not great as a high safety right now. He’s seldom played it at Utah. So probably more Rapp. The athletic traits are there for him to be that guy but McDermott ideally likes his Safeties to be positionless and interchangeable 

[NewEra]

24 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

This is the only explanation isn’t it … unless they had doubts about Rapp ( like 99 percent of people here) and Bishop was an expensive insurance policy if Rapp didn’t work out …

 

 

💯 

[ChrisWatson#21]

Taylor Rapp made a great open field tackle on Taylor to save a TD that turned into a field goal.  Same as with the open field tackle on Breece Hall that took points off the board.  He has been big time.

Edited November 11 by ChrisWatson#21

[4BillsintheBurgh]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Lets not forget that Rapp is playing well this season.  He basically won the Jets game for us.  Playing behind Rapp as a rookie is not a failure in my opinion.  I don't think either Rapp or Bishop is suited for the Hamlin role in this defense.  

Well, Rapp isn't crushing his own teammates as often, that's for sure. No doubt he's been better, I'm just not a huge fan.

 

When we drafted Bishop I thought ok, there's the Hyde replacement not the box safety. It seems like that is not the general consensus on TBD based on his college work and I'm a little disappointed if that's all Bishop can be. We have been talking about having playmakers to win big games, and the athletic ability in the 2nd round would hopefully translate to more range and interceptions from that deeper Hamlin/Hyde safety position. In my mind Bishop was making plays on the ball like Hyde did but having greater range. Even though McDermott can take a lesser athlete and make them good, I was hoping a 2nd round athlete could be a guy that makes game changing plays, making a strength even stronger and helping us get over the hump. I'm not so convinced the Rapp/Poyer position can be a game changer, it seems like more of a complementary role even with Bishop in there.

 

I'll wait and see with Bishop, they have a plan for him and I'm sure they're pretty anxious to get him on the field when he's ready.

[Warriorspikes51]

At the moment,  I would expect Hamlin to cost us big in the playoffs 

[appoo]

17 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

Bishop needs to replace Hamlin yesterday. Hamlin is a liability week in and week out. The chiefs will be coming at him all day because he can’t cover 

I figured this post was coming. 

 

Athletically Damar is - frankly - terrible. Maybe the least athletic starting safety in the league and I'm not sure it's even that close. 

 

But you gotta remember this is a Sean McDermott scheme being coached by a Sean McDermott disciple. Those two safeties are 2 of the 3 most important players fo his scheme (the Mike backer being the other one), and 3 have to be on top of their crap mentally. If a players is 50% better athletically than a starter, but 20% worse mentally, you absolutely want the smarter player starting and playing almost exclusively. The disguises and varied coverages and zones that McDermott uses is HIGHLY respected if you listen to some of the ex-coaches and QBs who played against it. Belichak talked about, Brady and Cam talked about it. 

 

Hamlin is a liability athletically, but makes almost 0 mental mistakes and that's why you want him starting.  

 

The hope for Cole is that by next season he marries his exceptional athletic ability and learns the scheme over the course of this season through all the meetings and such, and puts it together during the off season. We saw a similar RS season for Terel Bernard.  

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, appoo said:

I figured this post was coming. 

 

Athletically Damar is - frankly - terrible. Maybe the least athletic starting safety in the league and I'm not sure it's even that close. 

 

But you gotta remember this is a Sean McDermott scheme being coached by a Sean McDermott disciple. Those two safeties are 2 of the 3 most important players fo his scheme (the Mike backer being the other one), and 3 have to be on top of their crap mentally. If a players is 50% better athletically than a starter, but 20% worse mentally, you absolutely want the smarter player starting and playing almost exclusively. The disguises and varied coverages and zones that McDermott uses is HIGHLY respected if you listen to some of the ex-coaches and QBs who played against it. Belichak talked about, Brady and Cam talked about it. 

 

Hamlin is a liability athletically, but makes almost 0 mental mistakes and that's why you want him starting.  

 

The hope for Cole is that by next season he marries his exceptional athletic ability and learns the scheme over the course of this season through all the meetings and such, and puts it together during the off season. We saw a similar RS season for Terel Bernard.  

McDermott's scheme wouldn't work as well if we didn't have the front seven , especially our eight-man defensive line rotation 

 

Even the best corners and safeties in the world can't cover for 5 seconds if your defense can't create pressure..  multiple D lineman in the first round multiple in the second Carter in the third..  signed von Miller to 100 million dollars and let Edmunds walk

 

The d line is way more important to McDermott and he will scheme everything around that... If Anything our nickel corner taron Johnson makes the defense go... He provides so much and run and pass support he is invaluable

 

Our two all pros at safety were free agents that their other teams didn't even want to re sign.. besides Bishop in the second round we haven't put a lot of early resources into safety ... 

 

 

Edited November 11 by Buffalo716

[appoo]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

McDermott's scheme wouldn't work as well if we didn't have the front seven , especially our eight-man defensive line rotation 

 

Even the best corners and safeties in the world can't cover for 5 seconds if your defense can't create pressure..  multiple D lineman in the first round multiple in the second Carter in the third..  signed von Miller to 100 million dollars and let Edmunds walk

 

The d line is way more important to McDermott and he will scheme everything around that

 

 

To be elite yes that's the DLine. To be good that's the Mike and 2 safeties and corners who can play zone (with some man principles). 

 

This year the Bills have a fairly average DLine, and are tied for 12th in Defensive EPA, 14th in Pass EPA, and 9th in Rush EPA.  You have the slowest secondary in the league, Taron Johnson missing about half the season, Matt Milano missing the entire season, Von Miller missing 4 games (and only semi-effective), DaQuon Jones falling off the cliff...that's almost all scheme, and that's also why Hamlin has like the 2nd highest participation rate on the roster.

 

Edmunds struggled in man, while Bernard could do both zone (where Edmunds excels) and man effectively, which is why I don't think they wanted to spend the money on Edmunds. Bernard gave him a lot more versatility for disguising coverages. Everyone knows you're not leaving Edmunds in man no matter what you show pre-snap

Edited November 11 by appoo

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, gonzo1105 said:

I think ideally you would line him up in the box and let him man up a TE or a RB and Blitz him. He’s not great as a high safety right now. He’s seldom played it at Utah. So probably more Rapp. The athletic traits are there for him to be that guy but McDermott ideally likes his Safeties to be positionless and interchangeable 

 

Agree with this. I think they likely think down the line he can be an interchangeable piece - Po could play single high (and indeed 2017 and 2018 he did more of that than Hyde, it was 2019 where they really took off with Micah playing single high and Po coming into the box) - but he was an all pro playing closer to the line and I think that is sort of what they'd hope for Cole. But given he missed almost the entire camp and what we saw at Houston I imagine they are very conscious not to overload him at this stage. 

[Buffalo716]

29 minutes ago, appoo said:

To be elite yes that's the DLine. To be good that's the Mike and 2 safeties and corners who can play zone (with some man principles). 

 

This year the Bills have a fairly average DLine, and are tied for 12th in Defensive EPA, 14th in Pass EPA, and 9th in Rush EPA.  You have the slowest secondary in the league, Taron Johnson missing about half the season, Matt Milano missing the entire season, Von Miller missing 4 games (and only semi-effective), DaQuon Jones falling off the cliff...that's almost all scheme, and that's also why Hamlin has like the 2nd highest participation rate on the roster

We didn't even retain our pro bowl middle linebacker... Who we drafted 15th overall 

 

Yet we re sign Ed Oliver... We are going to resign Greg...  Signed von Miller 100 million contract... Even drafted guys like boogie in the second

 

The bills were top five in sacks last year and are pushing top 10 this year.. a defensive line of Greg Rousseau and Oliver and AJ and von is not average.. even if it doesn't seem like they're taking over games every week ... NFL games are won in the trenches and we're 8-2

 

There's not 10 defensive lines better than ours

 

McDermott has been here 8 years... Two safeties drafted.. one was the sixth round 

 

In his eight drafts he has two corners in the top three rounds .. including a trade so we'll say three

 

But six defensive lineman in the top three 

 

And three linebackers in the top three 

 

Sean McDermott is a secondary guru who thinks he can get more with less at those spots 

 

Nobody in the world thought poyer or Hyde were all pros at their old teams... What Sean McDermott did was identify what they were good at and solely put them in good positions to succeed..  like he does with all of our secondary players.. that's why undrafted guys like Levi Wallace could start here for years and look good in the system 

 

But Levi Wallace can't play at that level around the league for other teams.. McDermott puts him in the best spot week in and week out 

 

McDermott values defensive line , linebacker , corner , safety 

 

We could plug in castaways from other teams or sixth round picks like Benford or dame Jackson and they play great because of McDermott scheme... Defensive line are either pushing people around or getting pushed around.. you can't mask that 

 

And our NFL best point differential over the last few years shows we win in the trenches

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11 by Buffalo716

[NeverOutNick]

46 minutes ago, appoo said:

I figured this post was coming. 

 

Athletically Damar is - frankly - terrible. Maybe the least athletic starting safety in the league and I'm not sure it's even that close. 

 

But you gotta remember this is a Sean McDermott scheme being coached by a Sean McDermott disciple. Those two safeties are 2 of the 3 most important players fo his scheme (the Mike backer being the other one), and 3 have to be on top of their crap mentally. If a players is 50% better athletically than a starter, but 20% worse mentally, you absolutely want the smarter player starting and playing almost exclusively. The disguises and varied coverages and zones that McDermott uses is HIGHLY respected if you listen to some of the ex-coaches and QBs who played against it. Belichak talked about, Brady and Cam talked about it. 

 

Hamlin is a liability athletically, but makes almost 0 mental mistakes and that's why you want him starting.  

 

The hope for Cole is that by next season he marries his exceptional athletic ability and learns the scheme over the course of this season through all the meetings and such, and puts it together during the off season. We saw a similar RS season for Terel Bernard.  

Mental mistakes are off the chart brother. Watch the game. He wasn’t even aware a football was out near his feet. He consistently takes the wrong angle (see the JT big run) and he never helps out his corners in coverage leaving them on an island. Just because he’s a good tackler is not a good enough reason to keep him on the field over bishop and i totally get why Edwards was frustrated seeing this guy start over him every week 

[VW82]

Hamlin is an inspiration story. He survived instant death and beat the odds to come back and play. Andrew Catalon was talking about it right before Hamlin recovered the fumble and then went nuts celebrating after. Everyone wants to see him succeed. 

 

We shouldn't underestimate how much the fact it's Hamlin playing impacts the locker room and McD's decision making. From a heartless Bills fan perspective, it doesn't matter, but for everyone else, it does. 

Edited November 11 by VW82

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

To be elite yes that's the DLine. To be good that's the Mike and 2 safeties and corners who can play zone (with some man principles). 

 

This year the Bills have a fairly average DLine, and are tied for 12th in Defensive EPA, 14th in Pass EPA, and 9th in Rush EPA.  You have the slowest secondary in the league, Taron Johnson missing about half the season, Matt Milano missing the entire season, Von Miller missing 4 games (and only semi-effective), DaQuon Jones falling off the cliff...that's almost all scheme, and that's also why Hamlin has like the 2nd highest participation rate on the roster.

 

Edmunds struggled in man, while Bernard could do both zone (where Edmunds excels) and man effectively, which is why I don't think they wanted to spend the money on Edmunds. Bernard gave him a lot more versatility for disguising coverages. Everyone knows you're not leaving Edmunds in man no matter what you show pre-snap

When we drafted Bernard in the third 95% of his board said he's overdrafted

 

His play as a rookie when he got on the field left a lot to be desired... He didn't look good when he saw the field 

 

So much so that in the off-season again 95% of this board did not feel comfortable with him as the starting middle linebacker... People thought that was our biggest question mark

 

He did not look anything like a pro bowl linebacker in his snaps as a rookie... 

 

But that's because players get better with Repetition thank God.. as a back-up line backer even in practice you're doing scout teamwork mimicking the opposing teams defense , not perfecting your own 

 

But hindsight is 20/20 ... But 95% of this board was not comfortable with Bernard out the gate... The coaching staff was , this board was second guessing it... 

 

But it's because the coaching staff knows how to plug players into their system and get the most out of them.. Dodson looked good here... Our system is very linebacker friendly

 

And Edmunds did go man to man over 30% of the time in his career here.. he would man up on running backs and occasional slot receivers when we disguised coverage 

 

I would much rather have Terrell Bernard , because his IQ is so high .. but Tremaine and Milano definitely played man coverage around 35%.. Milano would normally man up on tight ends , Tremaine would man up on running backs and occasional slot wide receivers in a bracket coverage... So he would only follow them if they cross face

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11 by Buffalo716

[DCofNC]

22 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

Mental mistakes are off the chart brother. Watch the game. He wasn’t even aware a football was out near his feet. He consistently takes the wrong angle (see the JT big run) and he never helps out his corners in coverage leaving them on an island. Just because he’s a good tackler is not a good enough reason to keep him on the field over bishop and i totally get why Edwards was frustrated seeing this guy start over him every week 

Im with you, he was so bad he was in the right spot for the fumble recovery, pure luck.   I’m going to lose it if Edwards goes and plays well somewhere else this year.

[appoo]

https://bsky.app/profile/aaronquinn716.bsky.social/post/3laohl4xgi22l
 

Hamlin does a ton of good stuff out there, just because he’s so good positionally and at reading the game and reacting

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

https://bsky.app/profile/aaronquinn716.bsky.social/post/3laohl4xgi22l
 

Hamlin does a ton of good stuff out there, just because he’s so good positionally and at reading the game and reacting

 

He knows the defense. This scheme asks a lot of its safeties mentally. Hamlin makes few mental mistakes. I'm on record as saying I think he is a borderline NFL talent physically and I stick by that but he is smart and he knows his job and the idea that you just throw someone out there who doesn't because they are more physically talented is the epitome of fan logic over reality. 

[finn]

For me, with little football knowledge and no access to tape, I just have to trust the coaches on Hamlin over Bishop and, previously, Edwards. He's likely improving, too. But why invest such a high pick in a safety, then? Was it lack of trust in Rapp? What role does Bishop have next year and beyond, if Rapp is playing well signed for two more years and Hamlin is coming on? That's a big investment for a developmental player. 

[Dave_Bills]

Athletically and physically it would be nice if Bishop was out there but as many have said the mental requirements of playing safety in McDermott’s defence outweigh pure physical ability. 
 

Bishop missed too much time and is behind. This off season will be important for him.

 

For those that want him out there rewatch the Baltimore and especially Houston game.

 

Yes Damar is limited but he is our best option

[appoo]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He knows the defense. This scheme asks a lot of its safeties mentally. Hamlin makes few mental mistakes. I'm on record as saying I think he is a borderline NFL talent physically and I stick by that but he is smart and he knows his job and the idea that you just throw someone out there who doesn't because they are more physically talented is the epitome of fan logic over reality. 

I think borderline is being generous honestly but I agree with the sentiment, and the people I trust to analyze A22 stuff, say he doesn’t really make mistakes, very similar to Poyer and Hyde who were also limited athletes. 
 

I think mostly I think Hamlin gets a lot attention in general than he deserves. He’s a transitional starter

3 hours ago, finn said:

For me, with little football knowledge and no access to tape, I just have to trust the coaches on Hamlin over Bishop and, previously, Edwards. He's likely improving, too. But why invest such a high pick in a safety, then? Was it lack of trust in Rapp? What role does Bishop have next year and beyond, if Rapp is playing well signed for two more years and Hamlin is coming on? That's a big investment for a developmental player. 

While the 2 safeties aren’t quite interchangeable in McDermotts system there’s a ton of flexibility and overlap.  
 

Rapp has done well enough that I think it’s his job next few years, but you’ll see Cole given the opportunity to unseat Hamlin IMO.