Where's Cole Bishop?

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Bishop got caught looking on the long TD, I didn't see what happened on the other one.  But to your points about him costing us more games, what if he does something many here including  you think unheard of and learns from his mistakes?  What if he cuts way down on his mistakes next game?  What if McD instead plugs him in for a series or two in games when we have a comfortable lead?

 

Every NFL player has to adjust to the speed of the game, secondary is particularly rough but it has to happen in a game.  Practice can't simulate it.

 

For those that say coach will put him in when he shows ready in practice, it didn't happen that way for Terrel Bernard so I don't trust the coaches.  TB did get in early 2022 but of course made mistakes and was never seen again that year.  Yet when Edmunds left they knew TB was the answer so much so they didn't draft anybody.  That implies to me he earned it in practice but the coaches still held him out.  

 

TB was a revelation when he started 2023, smart, attacking.  Everything Edmunds wasn't.  And he elevated Milano's game as well.  Would have been interesting if he and Milano could have had more chances to develop that in 2022.  

 

The other thing about giving Bishop some opportunities here and there is you challenge Rapp and Hamlin, let them know why Bishop is getting some time and how they need to pick up their play.

 

I agree with BananaB that this defense isn't good enough to survive deep in the playoffs, especially with how slow our safeties are to react with little anticipation.  We need to be doing everything we can to get better in time for that.

 

Of course I think players can get better. What a nonsense thing to say. Bishop gave up both touchdowns against Houston he hit the wrong gap for the rushing touchdown and the guy sauntered right through the hole where Bishop should have been. As for playing him a series or two where we have a comfortable lead.... I mean that is what we have done. He got a series late against the Titans. He played late in games earlier in the year against Jacksonville and Baltimore when games were done. 

 

Otherwise the ask is to take a player off the field who is avoiding making back breaking mistakes to put one in who is. 

 

And your argument is actually hurt by your Bernard example. In 2022 he was bad when he played. He didn't then play again and "learn from his mistakes" while getting beat on the field. The Bills worked with him in practice and in the classroom and when he got his shot again in 2023 he earned the right to stay on the field with his play. 

 

The NFL is too hard to have guys out there who are not ready mentally to play in the league. Other teams (even the bad ones) are too clever and well coached and will just spot your weakness and go at it relentlessly. We shouldn't need more proof. The Texans did it with Cole and the week before the Ravens attacked our 2nd level - Spector, Williams, Lewis and Morrow - in the absence of Bernard and Taron with all but one play on offense in that first half on the way to a big lead. When NFL teams know you have a weak spot they go after it.

 

I wanted Cole starting by now. I want him on the field. But he is going to have go some to earn back the trust he lost in Houston. It isn't just with the coaches either. If the other players see a teammate benched for a high draft pick even when that guy is hurting the team they soon let you know about it. 

[Sierra Foothills]

There's a clear pattern of opinions on this topic (as in almost all the topics).

 

So far Bishop's played 133 of 571 defensive snaps which is 23% but since his disastrous start in week 5 he's only played 4 defensive snaps in 4 weeks. The crux is how to get Bishop live game action to accelerate his development. Most everyone would like to see him get more snaps in the name of development and being game ready if an injury were to happen to one of the starters.

 

The problem as everyone knows is trust from the coaching staff.

 

Consider that even with a "comfortable lead" most teams will keep their starters in. Say that the Bills are leading by 15 points late in the 3rd quarter... is that an appropriate time to get some of the reserves more snaps?

 

Probably not because if they make a mistake which costs the team a TD suddenly the opponent is down 8 points (technically a one score game) and has some momentum... they've gone from likely losing the game to feeling like they have a chance to win. As we saw again in the Bengals-Ravens, games swing on one play all the time.

 

THIS is why it's hard to get Bishop (and others) more meaningful reps. 

 

Coaches are simply not willing to give young players PT if doing so increases the chances of losing a game.

 

[machine gun kelly]

I wouldn’t get to riled up over Bishop still learning.  Someone else wrote correctly, Bernard had a bad rookie year, but was forced into it with injuries.  He grew in year 2, just as Bishop may grow in year 2.  Hamlin and Rapp are performing at least from PFF analytics towards the top of the league.

 

Why rush it with Bishop?

[TH3]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course I think players can get better. What a nonsense thing to say. Bishop gave up both touchdowns against Houston he hit the wrong gap for the rushing touchdown and the guy sauntered right through the hole where Bishop should have been. As for playing him a series or two where we have a comfortable lead.... I mean that is what we have done. He got a series late against the Titans. He played late in games earlier in the year against Jacksonville and Baltimore when games were done. 

 

Otherwise the ask is to take a player off the field who is avoiding making back breaking mistakes to put one in who is. 

 

And your argument is actually hurt by your Bernard example. In 2022 he was bad when he played. He didn't then play again and "learn from his mistakes" while getting beat on the field. The Bills worked with him in practice and in the classroom and when he got his shot again in 2023 he earned the right to stay on the field with his play. 

 

The NFL is too hard to have guys out there who are not ready mentally to play in the league. Other teams (even the bad ones) are too clever and well coached and will just spot your weakness and go at it relentlessly. We shouldn't need more proof. The Texans did it with Cole and the week before the Ravens attacked our 2nd level - Spector, Williams, Lewis and Morrow - in the absence of Bernard and Taron with all but one play on offense in that first half on the way to a big lead. When NFL teams know you have a weak spot they go after it.

 

I wanted Cole starting by now. I want him on the field. But he is going to have go some to earn back the trust he lost in Houston. It isn't just with the coaches either. If the other players see a teammate benched for a high draft pick even when that guy is hurting the team they soon let you know about it. 

Good lord this is a bad take

 

YOU “wanted Cole starting”….oh.  Ok

Edited November 10 by TH3

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Good lord this is a bad take

 

YOU “wanted Cole starting”….oh.  Ok

 

What's bad about it? Which but do you think is in accurate? Most if it is demonstrably true.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, BananaB said:

We lose in the same fashion every playoffs. Defensive minded coach who’s D plays like ***** in the playoffs. Me and you are on different pages. I want this team to be at its very best in the playoffs, and if it means taking a few lumps in regular season to get there, do it.  Your ok winning with average play during regular season even if you know it ain’t gonna hold up in playoffs 

You seem to not believe a player should earn playing time.  He is a second round pick so you play him regardless.  
 

You don’t know where Bishop is in his progression because you aren’t at practice or the film room…you just play him.

 

McDermott will play rookies if they are ready.  There are plenty of examples of that.

[BananaB]

26 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

You seem to not believe a player should earn playing time.  He is a second round pick so you play him regardless.  
 

You don’t know where Bishop is in his progression because you aren’t at practice or the film room…you just play him.

 

McDermott will play rookies if they are ready.  There are plenty of examples of that.

I believe a player needs to see the field to reach his full potential. Hamlin is who he is, he ain’t getting any better. How does that help us in playoffs when we start playing better teams? How was Hamlins game against Baltimore and what changes from him if we see them again.  People act like we’re getting solid play from our safeties because we have beaten some average teams.  Have we beaten anyone with a winning record? Seems like every QB we play against has a pretty solid game completing a shitload of passes. Even if they’re bad QBs. Bishop got burned against probably the best QB/WR duo we faced all year and the book is out on him. Gotta wait till next year, he ain’t got it 🙄 Makes no sense to me. Hamlin lets Henry run right past him numerous times in Baltimore and everyone still thinks hes doing a good job. 

Edited November 10 by BananaB

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I believe a player needs to see the field to reach his full potential. Hamlin is who he is, he ain’t getting any better. How does that help us in playoffs when we start playing better teams? How was Hamlins game against Baltimore and what changes from him if we see them again.  People act like we’re getting solid play from our safeties because we have beaten some average teams.  Have we beaten anyone with a winning record? Seems like every QB we play against has a pretty solid game completing a shitload of passes. Even if they’re bad QBs. Bishop got burned against probably the best QB/WR duo we faced all year and the book is out on him. Gotta wait till next year, he ain’t got it 🙄 Makes no sense to me. Hamlin lets Henry run right past him numerous times in Baltimore and everyone still thinks hes doing a good job. 

 

Hamlin was outmatched against Baltimore and he is outmatched physically most weeks. But none of those big plays were mental errors the likes of which Bishop made. I am not high on our current safeties at all, but that doesn't mean you throw a guy out there who you don't think is ready. And as I say above, I am not sure throw a guy in and watch him get burned is necessarily the best way to develop a player anyway. It isn't how the Bills developed Bernard. And it isn't how Rasul Douglas developed. He kept bing thrown out there as a young player by Philly and kept making mistakes. It was only when he was cut and ended up elsewhere as a backup watching, learning and time in the film room that he developed into a starter.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I believe a player needs to see the field to reach his full potential. Hamlin is who he is, he ain’t getting any better. How does that help us in playoffs when we start playing better teams? How was Hamlins game against Baltimore and what changes from him if we see them again.  People act like we’re getting solid play from our safeties because we have beaten some average teams.  Have we beaten anyone with a winning record? Seems like every QB we play against has a pretty solid game completing a shitload of passes. Even if they’re bad QBs. Bishop got burned against probably the best QB/WR duo we faced all year and the book is out on him. Gotta wait till next year, he ain’t got it 🙄 Makes no sense to me. Hamlin lets Henry run right past him numerous times in Baltimore and everyone still thinks hes doing a good job. 

Okay so you don’t believe a player needs to earn playing time.  You just give them the position even if they haven’t showed they are ready.

 

No one is saying we are getting good play at safety but if a rookie isn’t showing he’s ready, you don’t play him.  Do you not believe the mental aspect of the game?  Just completely ruin the confidence of a player by throwing then out there if they are not ready?

 

Again, McDermott has no issue playing rookies and if he was showing he was ready, he would be playing.

[JohnNord]

On 10/16/2024 at 12:15 PM, billsgpr88 said:

Is there any specific reason why he's hardly playing? I know he was injured early on in the year, and he did fill in for Rapp when he was injured, but it is strange to me that even local media never mentions him. Is it assumed that he is adjusting to the system, or has he just underperformed? Given that he was a 2nd round pick, I was hoping for a player who could come in and start almost immediately. It's frustrating to see players routinely getting open with space to run, and to my untrained eye the subpar play of Hamlin is a big reason for that. Maybe someone can fill me in if they know something I don't about Bishop's role on the team thus far.

No, they don’t want to start him only to have Micah Hyde take his spot later this season when he returns. 

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hamlin was outmatched against Baltimore and he is outmatched physically most weeks. But none of those big plays were mental errors the likes of which Bishop made. I am not high on our current safeties at all, but that doesn't mean you throw a guy out there who you don't think is ready. And as I say above, I am not sure throw a guy in and watch him get burned is necessarily the best way to develop a player anyway. It isn't how the Bills developed Bernard. And it isn't how Rasul Douglas developed. He kept bing thrown out there as a young player by Philly and kept making mistakes. It was only when he was cut and ended up elsewhere as a backup watching, learning and time in the film room that he developed into a starter.

Bernard sat his rookie year because Edmunds and Milano both played  most of the games. There is no comparison to this situation with Bishop sitting for Hamlin. Not even ***** close

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

Bernard sat his rookie year because Edmunds and Milano both played  most of the games. There is no comparison to this situation with Bishop sitting for Hamlin. Not even ***** close

 

So I agree with that. Bernard had better players ahead him by a long way. But that wasn't the comparison I was seeking to draw. Your point was you only improve by playing. Bernard is a good example of someone whose improvement came out of the public eye in the film room and the practice field and when he got his second chance he was ready to grab it. And it wasn't a done deal that. His position wasn't totally secure he and Dodson had battled through the summer. Dodson is a good player and is now an NFL starter too and if Bernard hadn't been ready the Bills would have made a change. But he took his chance, he took the opportunity and never looked back. We have to hope that when the coaches believe Bishop is ready for his next shot the same happens.

[BananaB]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

So I agree with that. Bernard had better players ahead him by a long way. But that wasn't the comparison I was seeking to draw. Your point was you only improve by playing. Bernard is a good example of someone whose improvement came out of the public eye in the film room and the practice field and when he got his second chance he was ready to grab it. And it wasn't a done deal that. His position wasn't totally secure he and Dodson had battled through the summer. Dodson is a good player and is now an NFL starter too and if Bernard hadn't been ready the Bills would have made a change. But he took his chance, he took the opportunity and never looked back. We have to hope that when the coaches believe Bishop is ready for his next shot the same happens.

And everyone is different so you can’t just say he’ll be ready next year because Bernard was. I still think it’s best for this team to get him playing now in hopes he got it locked down come playoffs because Hamlin just ain’t that guy. We have seen enough of him to know that

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

And everyone is different so you can’t just say he’ll be ready next year because Bernard was. I still think it’s best for this team to get him playing now in hopes he got it locked down come playoffs because Hamlin just ain’t that guy. We have seen enough of him to know that

 

I think it’s best not to lose games because you wanted to see him get playing time before he’s ready. We saw the Houston game and how quickly one bad read can change the game, especially at safety. I trust our coaches to know how far along he is and when he’s ready. 

[BananaB]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

I think it’s best not to lose games because you wanted to see him get playing time before he’s ready. We saw the Houston game and how quickly one bad read can change the game, especially at safety. I trust our coaches to know how far along he is and when he’s ready. 

Again, against the best QB/WR duo we seen all yea. People keep forgetting that. We haven’t played to many offences that been hitting on all cylinders in the passing game but we are still struggling to stop it every ***** game. . . 🙄

Edited November 10 by BananaB

[Augie]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

Again, against the best QB/WR duo we seen all year. 🙄

 

So? He made the wrong reads and gave up easy points. He wasn’t ready then, and I don’t want to ruin him by putting him in a position to fail. That hurts him, the team, and it makes my neighbors talk about the screaming coming from my house.  

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Again, against the best QB/WR duo we seen all yea. People keep forgetting that. We haven’t played to many offences that been hitting on all cylinders in the passing game but we are still struggling to stop it every ***** game. . . 🙄

 

If that was the ONLY mistake he made, sure. It most definitely wasn't. 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, BananaB said:

And everyone is different so you can’t just say he’ll be ready next year because Bernard was. I still think it’s best for this team to get him playing now in hopes he got it locked down come playoffs because Hamlin just ain’t that guy. We have seen enough of him to know that

 

For sure. There is no on size fits all. I wasn't the one arguing there is.

[BananaB]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If that was the ONLY mistake he made, sure. It most definitely wasn't. 

 

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

So? He made the wrong reads and gave up easy points. He wasn’t ready then, and I don’t want to ruin him by putting him in a position to fail. That hurts him, the team, and it makes my neighbors talk about the screaming coming from my house.  

Well in the playoffs when Hamlin is physically outmatched like you said he is most games, what options do we have?Plug Bishop in part way through a game and see if watching from the bench the whole season helped him. What’s the point of moving forward if we know the outcome?  
 

I’m not sure how Bishop will handle more time, just like your not. He could be a player that learns quick from his mistakes, but then again maybe he isn’t.  We don’t know unless you give him some more time and see.  If it’s still not working a few games down the road you can always go back to Hamlin. People got this guy pegged as a player who can’t help us based off one ***** start.  I want to see him now in hopes that he’ll make an impact by playoffs. There is nothing you can argue that will change my mind.  

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, BananaB said:

 

Well in the playoffs when Hamlin is physically outmatched like you said he is most games, what options do we have?Plug Bishop in part way through a game and see if watching from the bench the whole season helped him. What’s the point of moving forward if we know the outcome?  
 

I’m not sure how Bishop will handle more time, just like your not. He could be a player that learns quick from his mistakes, but then again maybe he isn’t.  We don’t know unless you give him some more time and see.  If it’s still not working a few games down the road you can always go back to Hamlin. People got this guy pegged as a player who can’t help us based off one ***** start.  I want to see him now in hopes that he’ll make an impact by playoffs. There is nothing you can argue that will change my mind.  

 

I almost stopped reading at the first sentence, because that is simply not true. I never said anything about Hamlin being outmatched in the playoffs. That may have been you or somebody else. 

 

Regardless, I’m not at practice every day, and I bet you aren’t either. We have professional coaches there to teach, observe and evaluate. McD may have flaws, but one of his strengths is developing DB’s. I’ll trust him over us in our comfy recliners.