The Diggs - Cooper trade

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The way I see it, proper context IS that Diggs didn’t want to be here anymore and the HAD to trade him.  This happened after free agency.  The only real upgrade left at the time of the trade was to trade up for BTj.  That’s the only way we could’ve “won”.  I don’t think any of the WRs available when we picked are so much better than Keon, if at all, that we would’ve “won”.  It’s was a BTj or bust kind of offseason.  
 

Considering the Diggs dilemma, I think Beane did a good job.  Samuel, being the caveat.  He’s been a terrible signing to date, but that could change.  Turf toe for a WR with his skill set and size is a beast to deal with.  Let’s hope that’s been a major problem with his play. 

 

 

I agree they had to trade them. That was implicit in what I said in point 1. But I don't think they didn't realise until after free agency. That was known sooner. So that is an arbitrary cut off date IMO. As for who should they have taken... let's see. BTJ would certainly have been a win. We will see where Keon is at the end of the year. 

 

But I repeat: the Diggs contract decision, the lack of draft investment at receiver 2021-2023 and the way they handled things this spring might have elements of misfortune but they have strong elements of bad decision making too. 

[balln]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The way I see it, proper context IS that Diggs didn’t want to be here anymore and the HAD to trade him.  This happened after free agency.  The only real upgrade left at the time of the trade was to trade up for BTj.  That’s the only way we could’ve “won”.  I don’t think any of the WRs available when we picked are so much better than Keon, if at all, that we would’ve “won”.  It’s was a BTj or bust kind of offseason.  
 

Considering the Diggs dilemma, I think Beane did a good job.  Samuel, being the caveat.  He’s been a terrible signing to date, but that could change.  Turf toe for a WR with his skill set and size is a beast to deal with.  Let’s hope that’s been a major problem with his play. 

Do the back to back LB picks currently leave you sour?  I think those picks hit everyone the same at the time of the selections.  But now, they are looking like steals.

I like what both have turned into. But they won’t do diddly vs the ravens. Their pff grades are pretty telling (I’ll give you a hint- bad). Just because you see a tackle here and there- and Bernard had an ELITE int does not tell the whole 60-70 snaps a game over weeks- story.  They were drafted as backups and special teams players. Hopefully to turn into starters. Beane said as much. We spend SO much rd 2-3 draft capital at non premium positions: RB, G, LB. 
 

Needed more picks at WR , DE 

 

make no mistake about it. The way this D is constructed. They are slow. Poor tacklers. And the ONLY way the D plays well is if their DL is dominant. It is a DL critical D. BB on manning cast laid it out. Good watch in first half 

Edited October 17 by balln

[Kirby Jackson]

Diggs is still the better player (although that gap isn’t huge). For THIS year alone, I’d still say Diggs. Moving forward, taking the cap hit, getting the pick, and clearing the deck, all while getting Cooper, will be better imo.
 

The Bills were also able to do this in a year where they are already 4-2 & still in control of the division. Sometimes you have to take a step back to take 2 steps forward. In this case, the passing game took a step back for 6 weeks but the team did not. At 4-2, with this schedule, they’re actually a game ahead of where I thought they’d be at this point. Everything is still in front of them and they’re a much better team than they were when they took the field Monday. 
 

I also think, that the Bills will extend Cooper for 2-3 years if this goes well. His game feels like it will age well (as does Stef’s). Guys that are technicians age better than guys that win with pure athleticism. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

the lack of draft investment at receiver 2021-2023 

This is what keeps getting overlooked in these discussions.  This offseason did not take place in a vacuum.  There were plenty of opportunities prior to this offseason to invest in young receivers to eventually (or quickly) take the reins from Diggs (or better yet add options in addition to Diggs).  This regime constantly talks itself into other priorities - every offseason they need to draft a running back and overpay a middling veteran d lineman or three.  It is the Curse of Dave Gettleman.  It seemingly just never occurs to them to leverage their best asset and lean into it: their generational QB.

 

They are meatheads, pure and simple, just like their mentor.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree they had to trade them. That was implicit in what I said in point 1. But I don't think they didn't realise until after free agency. That was known sooner. So that is an arbitrary cut off date IMO. As for who should they have taken... let's see. BTJ would certainly have been a win. We will see where Keon is at the end of the year. 

 

But I repeat: the Diggs contract decision, the lack of draft investment at receiver 2021-2023 and the way they handled things this spring might have elements of misfortune but they have strong elements of bad decision making too. 

I absolutely agree with the lack of investment in WR from 21-23 has hurt our offensive progression and roster make up.  Beane certainly mismanaged that unit.

 

regarding the Diggs extension…..iirc, they needed to free up the money to sign Von Miller.   The majority of the room came from that extension.  Beamer did what he had to do in order to secure a vital piece in capturing a Lombardi.  Then the injury happened and we lost 2 playoff runs partly because he wasn’t there/was useless.  In hindsight, it was a terrible move with the Miller injury and Diggs regressed some as a WR while also bringing too much drama and eventually forced his way out in an offseason where he carried a massive dead cap.
 

at the time of the moves, i thought they were fine.  The moves gave us the best chance to win a SB over the next 3 seasons.  It’s hard to predict acl tears and that tear really compounded the Diggs extension.  
 

In my post, I was commenting on this offseason, not what led us to this offseason 

Edited October 17 by NewEra

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

This is what keeps getting overlooked in these discussions.  This offseason did not take place in a vacuum.  There were plenty of opportunities prior to this offseason to invest in young receivers to eventually (or quickly) take the reins from Diggs (or better yet add options in addition to Diggs).  This regime constantly talks itself into other priorities - every offseason they need to draft a running back and overpay a middling veteran d lineman or three.  It is the Curse of Dave Gettleman.  It seemingly just never occurs to them to leverage their best asset and lean into it: their generational QB.

 

They are meatheads, pure and simple, just like their mentor.

 

It's what I say every time someone tries to tell me Beane is forced to draft this way by McDermott...... his team building approach bears remarkable similarity to Hurney and Gettleman - the two guys he learned under. This is how he believes in building a roster. Don't get me wrong I don't think McDermott needs much encouragement to prioritise defensive tackles and linebackers, but his General Manager isn't some puppet having his strings pulled. He is a guy executing a team building strategy he believes in with a Head Coach he is in lock step with. 

 

How many defensive line rebuilds are we up to now in Beane's 7 offseasons? Three? 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Considering the Diggs dilemma, I think Beane did a good job.  Samuel, being the caveat.  He’s been a terrible signing to date, but that could change.  Turf toe for a WR with his skill set and size is a beast to deal with.  Let’s hope that’s been a major problem with his play. 

 

As of right now it seems like the move was to sign Darnell Mooney instead of Curtis Samuel. Not a true #1 but a legit WR that can play outside and can separate. It likely would have come at the cost of re-signing someone like Daquan Jones. Instead they went the cheap route at WR and ended up with a predictably poor result.

 

And they knew well before Diggs was actually traded that he would be gone. It is not a case of being surprised by a sudden last minute change in his attitude. They had time to prepare for his departure and failed to do so.

[Joe Mama]

13 hours ago, finn said:

Yes, essentially we traded Diggs for Cooper, with the small additional salary (the $807k) offset by a getting a second-round pick for a third and a sixth for a seventh. 

 

In this light, it was a slam dunk on Beane's part. 

Minor note, we also gave up a 6th in Diggs trade I think.

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

As of right now it seems like the move was to sign Darnell Mooney instead of Curtis Samuel. Not a true #1 but a legit WR that can play outside and can separate. It likely would have come at the cost of re-signing someone like Daquan Jones. Instead they went the cheap route at WR and ended up with a predictably poor result.

 

And they knew well before Diggs was actually traded that he would be gone. It is not a case of being surprised by a sudden last minute change in his attitude. They had time to prepare for his departure and failed to do so.

agree about Mooney being the MUCH better signing, but 3-39 was too steep for his tastes considering our need for DTs.  
 

If the choice was Daquan and Samuel or Mooney, I’d take Daquan and Samuel.  I know you don’t notice him very much, but he’s a presence and a huge part of our D.  

 

 

[SoMAn]

22 hours ago, JP51 said:

Wow, was it Travon or another brother

The key word is 'ACCUSED'. 

 

Sadly, we seem to be in a culture fueled by social media that has made honest Americans forget all about our laws and a justice system based on 'innocent until proven guilty'. Because of this 'jump to conclusions' mentality, there are bad actors who use it to create false narratives against their adversaries, knowing their shallow audience will never look further than the salacious headlines.

 

We had a young punter who appeared to have been falsely accused of sexual assault. Though it was never proven, the accusations were enough to derail his career, at least temporarily.

 

These allegations about Diggs may prove to be true, but for anyone with limited or zero knowledge of the supposed event to pass judgement, they should take a step back and keep quiet until they're better informed.  

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

agree about Mooney being the MUCH better signing, but 3-39 was too steep for his tastes considering our need for DTs.  
 

If the choice was Daquan and Samuel or Mooney, I’d take Daquan and Samuel.  I know you don’t notice him very much, but he’s a presence and a huge part of our D.  

 

 

 

I completely disagree about DQ. I was one of the few that didn't like the signing to begin with, for a multitude of reasons but primarily because it once again meant we were choosing to invest in the defense at the expense of the offense. And DQ has been invisible. We have the worst run defense in the league... You can't spend moderate money on a 1T and have the worst run defense in the league, you just can't.

 

So what if we had a need at DT? It is plainly obvious that Mooney would mean more to this team right now than DQ. And that is not hindsight, it was easily predictable way back in March. As I said all offseason the Bills should have made a real attempt to build around Josh first and the defense second. Instead they made the same mistake they've made every offseason for several years in a row now, and as expected the offense dropped off and the defense has been a disappointment in spite of the investments. There's really no justification or excuse for failing to sign a legit outside WR when one was sitting right there for the taking and we chose the gadget WR instead.

 

Also that $2.25M we set on fire when we signed MVS could have gone towards Mooney. But because we overspent on yet another aging defensive lineman, we were forced to make a panic move at WR. I'd like to think Beane will learn from this experience but he hasn't learned the other half dozen times so unfortunately I'm coming to realize that this is just who he is. Just once I'd like this regime to try the one path they really haven't tried yet which is to OVER invest in the offense and see where that takes you.

 

Edited October 17 by HappyDays

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

As of right now it seems like the move was to sign Darnell Mooney instead of Curtis Samuel. Not a true #1 but a legit WR that can play outside and can separate. It likely would have come at the cost of re-signing someone like Daquan Jones. Instead they went the cheap route at WR and ended up with a predictably poor result.

 

And they knew well before Diggs was actually traded that he would be gone. It is not a case of being surprised by a sudden last minute change in his attitude. They had time to prepare for his departure and failed to do so.

 

He was the guy I was calling for before FA!

[HappyDays]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He was the guy I was calling for before FA!

 

I liked the Samuel signing, but that was before I knew that Diggs would be traded. The front office at that time knew that Diggs was very likely not going to be here. So they knew they were going to have a gaping void at outside WR... and with that knowledge they signed a slot/gadget WR and Mack Hollins? I don't really blame Beane for Samuel's drop off - whether from injury or bad luck it came out of nowhere - but I do blame him for coming into the season without a plan at such an important position.

 

Part of me also wonders, if we had signed Mooney would we still have traded for Cooper? Would this regime be willing to really stack the position and try to build a shootout caliber offense? Or are they content with doing the bare minimum?

[JP51]

6 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

The key word is 'ACCUSED'. 

 

Sadly, we seem to be in a culture fueled by social media that has made honest Americans forget all about our laws and a justice system based on 'innocent until proven guilty'. Because of this 'jump to conclusions' mentality, there are bad actors who use it to create false narratives against their adversaries, knowing their shallow audience will never look further than the salacious headlines.

 

We had a young punter who appeared to have been falsely accused of sexual assault. Though it was never proven, the accusations were enough to derail his career, at least temporarily.

 

These allegations about Diggs may prove to be true, but for anyone with limited or zero knowledge of the supposed event to pass judgement, they should take a step back and keep quiet until they're better informed.  

Interesting, to be honest I subscribe deeply to the concept of waiting until the facts come out before passing judgement as you have illustrated here. Too many people are cancelled on innuendo or rumor and it takes one person accusing to do this... akin to the Salem witch trials at this point...  (although subsequently looked up a video and if indeed the person on the video was Diggs brother its pretty damning)  

 

With regards to my simply asking which brother was accused as I was unaware this even happened.... to translate that into me passing judgement and telling me effectively to shut up....  Is a bit of a reach in my book.  Sadly, we seem to be in a culture fueled by a rush to judgement were we jump to conclusions and create false narratives, as I clearly did not say or condemn anyone, I was simply looking to understand what was even being said as the allegation seemed shocking to me...  We are so quick to tell people in our society to be quiet or shut up before we understand their intent. And I agree this is disturbing. 

[Heavy Kevi]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I completely disagree about DQ. I was one of the few that didn't like the signing to begin with, for a multitude of reasons but primarily because it once again meant we were choosing to invest in the defense at the expense of the offense. And DQ has been invisible. We have the worst run defense in the league... You can't spend moderate money on a 1T and have the worst run defense in the league, you just can't.

 

So what if we had a need at DT? It is plainly obvious that Mooney would mean more to this team right now than DQ. And that is not hindsight, it was easily predictable way back in March. As I said all offseason the Bills should have made a real attempt to build around Josh first and the defense second. Instead they made the same mistake they've made every offseason for several years in a row now, and as expected the offense dropped off and the defense has been a disappointment in spite of the investments. There's really no justification or excuse for failing to sign a legit outside WR when one was sitting right there for the taking and we chose the gadget WR instead.

 

Also that $2.25M we set on fire when we signed MVS could have gone towards Mooney. But because we overspent on yet another aging defensive lineman, we were forced to make a panic move at WR. I'd like to think Beane will learn from this experience but he hasn't learned the other half dozen times so unfortunately I'm coming to realize that this is just who he is. Just once I'd like this regime to try the one path they really haven't tried yet which is to OVER invest in the offense and see where that takes you.

 

 

DQ aside, I think Beans just outsmarted himself with the WR room this year. He did at WR what he's done at other positions previously (with better results than the WR "rebuild").

 

He signed a bunch of guys who either had above average/elite physical traits or needed a reset, hoping one or more would emerge. MVS and Claypool with legit chances to break through. Samuel and Hollins with real opportunities to step into the light. And of course all of this with the expectation Kincaid would be Kelce 2.0. But obviously it all fell straight on it's collective face and he looks like a dumbass.

 

Had his plan worked, he'd look like a genius. That's what he was hoping for.

 

I also think that the expectations have shifted. I think beane and FO generally expected a "down" cap correction year, or as Beane put it himself "a transition year"...

 

But then they found themselves 2 games ahead in the east, Tua/phins toast and Jets looking bad. Beane says "F it", stops the failed "everybody eats" at WR BS, and goes out and gets a real WR. I'll give him credit for reading the room and making a move.

 

That Samuel contract though, yowza. And it didn't have to get to this. As you said he could have just gotten us a real WR to begin with and cut out all the nonsense. He obviously didn't, but at least we aren't the team we used to root for, who would assuredly do NOTHING until the next off-season.

 

I will completely agree with you I'd like to see over investment in the offense as well. We have Josh freaking Allen. Just outscore everyone else and save the experimentation for the defense. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

Cooper has lost a step so it's not a boon of a trade...but clearly Diggs was done here so Coop's the answer almost by default

[SCBills]

4 hours ago, balln said:

I like what both have turned into. But they won’t do diddly vs the ravens. Their pff grades are pretty telling (I’ll give you a hint- bad). Just because you see a tackle here and there- and Bernard had an ELITE int does not tell the whole 60-70 snaps a game over weeks- story.  They were drafted as backups and special teams players. Hopefully to turn into starters. Beane said as much. We spend SO much rd 2-3 draft capital at non premium positions: RB, G, LB. 
 

Needed more picks at WR , DE 

 

make no mistake about it. The way this D is constructed. They are slow. Poor tacklers. And the ONLY way the D plays well is if their DL is dominant. It is a DL critical D. BB on manning cast laid it out. Good watch in first half 

 

If the Bills make another move before the deadline, I'd think it has to be with a potential Ravens rematch in mind.  

 

We match up fine with everyone else (Chiefs, Texans, Bengals etc.)  Now whether our defense actually plays to their ability when it matters is another story.

 

Our undersized defense does not match up well with this new Ravens attack at all.   And I might want to amend it and say the Texans with Mixon could be a problem as well.

 

Tend to think any additional trade deadline move might want to be for a run stuffing DT.. because we have to keep Bernard/Williams/Johnson clean and having 5 DT's, one a sixth round rookie and the others not exactly being big plugging DT's, we might need to look and see what's available there.

 

 

[SoMAn]

16 minutes ago, JP51 said:

Interesting, to be honest I subscribe deeply to the concept of waiting until the facts come out before passing judgement as you have illustrated here. Too many people are cancelled on innuendo or rumor and it takes one person accusing to do this... akin to the Salem witch trials at this point...  (although subsequently looked up a video and if indeed the person on the video was Diggs brother its pretty damning)  

 

With regards to my simply asking which brother was accused as I was unaware this even happened.... to translate that into me passing judgement and telling me effectively to shut up....  Is a bit of a reach in my book.  Sadly, we seem to be in a culture fueled by a rush to judgement were we jump to conclusions and create false narratives, as I clearly did not say or condemn anyone, I was simply looking to understand what was even being said as the allegation seemed shocking to me...  We are so quick to tell people in our society to be quiet or shut up before we understand their intent. And I agree this is disturbing. 

I wasn't pointing a finger at you specifically. Just chiming in on the original thread, primarily the part about the Bill Cosby tactic drugging (with another man!) that Diggs is being accused of. It sounds like the sort of thing that's been used in celebrity circles to extort money from public figures. I have no idea what happened with Diggs (if anything), and really don't care. Just glad the apparent cancer is no longer part of the Bills.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

23 hours ago, Sweats said:

Any time we don't have Diggs on the roster, we are in a better position

Diggs owes his super star status to Allen. He barely cracked a thousand yards only 2/5 seasons and never had double digit TDs in Minny. Then gets traded and goes on to have one of the best team debuts of all time and ends up w/ 5372 yards + 37 TDs in 4 years.
 

Even during losses, u can see Allen’s body language much more relaxed on the sidelines. Probably happy he doesn’t have to worry about being screamed at by a grown man w/ the temperament of a 4 year old. I’m convinced this guy would be a glorified Brandin Cooks if he went to any team without a top 5 QB. Does Diggs think he is the sole reason Josh Allen has the most TDs all time thru their first 6 seasons? It really is a shame what this guy did to tarnish his name in Buffalo. He could’ve still went to Houston, left on a good note praising his time here, and would’ve been a legend for life in Western NY. Or he could’ve kept his mouth shut while he was here and aged gracefully. There are definitely Bills players that have done much more horrible things and deserve much worse. But as far as personality, Diggs has the most unlikeable of all time for me. 

[JP51]

4 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

I wasn't pointing a finger at you specifically. Just chiming in on the original thread, primarily the part about the Bill Cosby tactic drugging (with another man!) that Diggs is being accused of. It sounds like the sort of thing that's been used in celebrity circles to extort money from public figures. I have no idea what happened with Diggs (if anything), and really don't care. Just glad the apparent cancer is no longer part of the Bills.

To be honest I figured it had to be but I think when you referenced my quote my thought was that you were referencing ... well my quote lol... anyways I am super focused on the impacts of innuendo especially in a leadership role... its sad... we see it with athletes, cops, priests, talking heads, buisness people, no one is immune and in the end some are bad actors and some are bad accusers with alterior motives... and I hate it.  But I do very much appreciate your clarification as I never want to come off as one of those people who wanna gossip and inflame.