Buffalo trades for Amari Cooper! (for a 3rd rnd pick and a late round swap)

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Diggs’ stats got a josh Allen boost for sure though and cooper hasn’t had that opportunity yet so that method of comparison is pretty misleading 

 

The qbs cooper has played for have not been nearly as good as what diggs had in buffalo

 

not trying to say you’re wrong for preferring diggs necessarily it’s just not that ridiculous of a take 

I don’t really see it as an argument ender…I don’t see how cooper or any other good wr wouldn’t have made the same play in the same situation.  The defender mistimed the hit and had to go super low to avoid an obvious pi 

 

that’s gotta be top 10 worst plays by an nfl defender of all time 

It was a hard balancing and then he had to swivel and go. Many receivers would simply have gone out of bounds or gone down. It was a great play. Let's not diminish it. 

 

Edited October 16 by dave mcbride

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was a hard balancing and then he had to swivel and go. Many receivers would simply have gone out of bounds or gone down. It was a great play. Let's not diminish it. 

 

Oh yea it’s a great play but can cooper not do that? Like how is that a mic drop for diggs vs cooper is what I’m saying 

[wppete]

What number did Cooper get? #19?

[stevestojan]

im sure this has been mentioned but can someone help me out? Will he dress Sunday? 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

A few things:

 

There is no way someone can, with 100% accuracy, determine the first read in a play simply by watching all-22. Beyond that, who is compiling/vetting these charts? Credentials? Bottom line, this is not an objective stat and should t be treated as one.

 

Second, even if this stat is 100% true, I think you are committing a logical fallacy due to confirmation bias. Your premise is the WR suck, and this “stat” which doesn’t say if the first read was open or not, if the first read was even a WR, or the type of defense being played against the call confirms it because the first read isn’t good enough to get open.

 

there are a lot of reasons this is happening, and I don’t even know wr is at the top of the list. First, Josh has always had a tendency to hold the ball…he’s not really an anticipatory thrower AND he has a ton of confidence in his ability to extend plays. Second, this offense has changed to more of a “run your route” style offense, which means the post snap defense has a lot of influence on where the ball is going. His first read is going to be based on his presnap read. It’s not like he picks a receiver and says “get open” and the receiver can’t, so he moves on.

 

Honestly, I don’t think the problem is the receivers, per se. I think trying to read the whole field under pressure while trying to not make a mistake is causing Josh to be indecisive. It doesn’t help that none of the receivers can just destroy man coverage and make it easy for him, I guess…but he shouldn’t need that if he is who we think he is. 
 

pretty much, I think Josh is the best thrower of the football in the NFL and I don’t think it is close…that covers up the fact that he is middle of the pack when it comes to decision making, and this offense and receiver core is exposing that to a certain extent. Hopefully some more “easy” reads with Cooper gets the job done.

 

Come on man... There can't be any WR truthers left on here!! The debate is over. The group wasn't remotely good enough and Beane made the ONLY possible move to give this team any kind of chance.

 

BTW 1st read percentage is compiled by PFF as part of the data package that real NFL teams pay thousands of dollars for. It isn't a fake stat just because you don't understand it. They're also very generous with how they assign a 1st read to a play - if 3 WRs are bunched to one side and the QB throws to any one of those WRs, they call that a 1st read throw even though technically it could have been the 2nd WR the QB went to on that side.

 

Watch the all-22 footage from this year, or find one of the accounts on Twitter that compiles clips. The WRs are not separating consistently. Allen regularly has nowhere to go with the ball. It was especially evident against the Jets. It isn't because of his decision making, it's because the talent in the room stinks. Beane has admitted that by trading for Cooper. Why can't you do the same?

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

So Tucker isn’t credible enough? Harmon has an agenda? Orlovsky taking about the inability to win vs. man good enough?

 

There’s plenty more where that came from. Instead of discrediting the data and experts, can you provide the data and experts refuting the separation concerns (prior to Cooper of course)?
 

The Bills receivers were awful prior to this move. They are now average and that may be enough because the league is pretty open.  Credit to the Bills for realizing their massive mistake and giving Josh a real weapon. Progress

Maybe I can ask this way...

 

What is more likely, last season...that Stephon Diggs lost a step and could no longer "separate" or that changes to the scheme limited his ability to do so in favor of a more team-based offensive system?

 

In other words, certain routes and/or route combinations make it easier for receivers to win against man. So do certain alignments and personnel groupings. This idea that a good receiver just constantly separates from coverage regardless of who is covering them, where they line up, or what route they run is ridiculous and not at all realistic. 

 

I would bet money that teams that more frequently use 6 OL, 12 personnel, and condensed sets tend to have a lower average WR separation regardless of their perceived talent. They also probably have a better epa and running game, so it's a trade off.

Edited October 16 by Mikey152

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Oh yea it’s a great play but can cooper not do that? Like how is that a mic drop for diggs vs cooper is what I’m saying 

it was terrible DB play and a missed tackle

 

90% of NFL wideouts can do that

[Warriorspikes51]

11 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

im sure this has been mentioned but can someone help me out? Will he dress Sunday? 

He better!  Especially since he played 2 seasons under our WR coach and was very good.  Also, the Dorsey playbook may have similar terms on plays to ours 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

10 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

im sure this has been mentioned but can someone help me out? Will he dress Sunday? 

 

I would assume he's going to practice a couple of times before they say much of anything.  Whether he plays much vs. dress vs. start is probably completely unknown.  

[Danger Mouse]

So excited with this trade. Feels like it should be illegal. 

 

We basically swapped a 30 yo Diggs for a 30 yo Cooper and got a 2nd for a 3rd and a 6th for a 7th. 

 

(unless i've misunderstood that)

Edited October 16 by Danger Mouse

[Billz4ever]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

100% agree with this too. Sometimes you want to let things play out to see if the issues can be resolved. This was a clear lack of talent and the Bills recognized it and upgraded. That’s strong.

 

Not to mention that the longer we waited, the stronger the chances more teams get in the Cooper sweepstakes and drive the asking price up along with the chances he goes somewhere else...and in this case, by somewhere else, I mean KC.  I did NOT want to see him go there while we sat on our hands.

 

44 minutes ago, Danger Mouse said:

So excited with this trade. Feels like it should be illegal. 

 

We basically swapped a 30 yo Diggs for a 30 yo Cooper and got a 2nd for a 3rd and a 6th for a 7th. 

 

And minus the drama too.

 

Someone like Cooper is much better for Josh mentally.  He won't feel as obligated to try and force balls to him to keep him happy.

Edited October 16 by Billz4ever

[notpolian]

1 hour ago, sven233 said:

 

Honestly, in terms of playing style, they are very similar.  Both premier route runners that can create immediate separation off the line.  While neither are burners, Cooper does seem to have more of a knack of being able to make the tough catches down the field with good coverage.  That said, Cooper may drop a couple more balls here and there.  In the end, though, I do think they are pretty close, but if you take away the constant drama that seemed to follow Diggs around, I think Allen will be happier overall with Cooper than Diggs.  Talent-wise?  Probably pretty close to be honest.

 

One thing's for sure, though.  Even though the slant pass has been MIA in our playbook for years, Brady needs to find it and make it a fixture of our offense.  Cooper excels at it and, quite honestly, if we want Coleman to help us this year in a meaningful way, he should be seeing slants a lot too.  He struggles to separate as routes extend, but with his basketball background, one thing he can do is box people out early and make something out of those quick slants.  Why we haven't used them more, I will never understand.

I was thinking this very same thought the other day whilst daydreaming about Andre Reed.  The slant is really effective against some defenses.  I don't know how many TDs Reed had with a slant but it had to be a lot.  Especially with the way WRs are protected these days I'm surprised it's not run more.  Back then you could be mortally wounded and it was a legal hit.

[Billz4ever]

Just now, notpolian said:

I was thinking this very same thought the other day whilst daydreaming about Andre Reed.  The slant is really effective against some defenses.  I don't know how many TDs Reed had with a slant but it had to be a lot.  Especially with the way WRs are protected these days I'm surprised it's not run more.  Back then you could be mortally wounded and it was a legal hit.

 

Yep, back in those days, you were taking your life in your own hands on routes like that and your QB could get you killed with a bad ball.

 

Guys like Ronnie Lott were waiting to take you head off.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, notpolian said:

I was thinking this very same thought the other day whilst daydreaming about Andre Reed.  The slant is really effective against some defenses.  I don't know how many TDs Reed had with a slant but it had to be a lot.  Especially with the way WRs are protected these days I'm surprised it's not run more.  Back then you could be mortally wounded and it was a legal hit.

I think they are quite different actually

 

Diggs has (had) a lot of short area burst and could really get/present open...he really was one of the more QB friendly targets I can remember

 

Cooper is more your traditional wideout, very strong at catch point, open when he isn't, presents more physicality in his route running and probably better straight line speed than Diggs

 

In their prime I would say Diggs was perfect for a developing Allen, Cooper is perfect for a developed Allen...granted neither are in their prime anymore but no fixing that

[mannc]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

In their prime I would say Diggs was perfect for a developing Allen, Cooper is perfect for a developed Allen...granted neither are in their prime anymore but no fixing that

And yet Amari Cooper had the best statistical year of his career in 2023…1250 yards on nearly 18 YPC.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

And yet Amari Cooper had the best statistical year of his career in 2023…1250 yards on nearly 18 YPC.  

he can still play no doubt

[Orlando Buffalo]

I am happy with the trade, low cost, high potential gain, but I really am unsure what he can bring to the table this year. Receivers seem to take some time to get used to Allen, so I am expecting anything too impressive for at least 6 games. Of course that being said if he and Allen get on sync by the playoffs he might be out MVP receiver 

[Doc]

34 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

im sure this has been mentioned but can someone help me out? Will he dress Sunday? 

I said earlier (tongue in cheek) that they can afford to have him sit out, but there’s no reason to and he should dress. Get him up to speed asap. He’ll be a big boost to the offense. 

Edited October 16 by Doc

[notpolian]

To me, the three big things are:

1.  Cooper is a very big upgrade from any of our existing "boundary" receivers.  He should make a difference.  Maybe he can even mentor Coleman some.

2. The money works out very well this year. 

3. I'm honestly surprised Beane made the deal.  I sorta thought the regime looked at this as somewhat of a throwaway year given what they had at WR.  I'm very glad to be wrong.

[stuvian]

Cooper is in the tail end of his prime. This is urgency on his part as well