Buffalo trades for Amari Cooper! (for a 3rd rnd pick and a late round swap)

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

A few things:

 

There is no way someone can, with 100% accuracy, determine the first read in a play simply by watching all-22. Beyond that, who is compiling/vetting these charts? Credentials? Bottom line, this is not an objective stat and should t be treated as one.

 

Second, even if this stat is 100% true, I think you are committing a logical fallacy due to confirmation bias. Your premise is the WR suck, and this “stat” which doesn’t say if the first read was open or not, if the first read was even a WR, or the type of defense being played against the call confirms it because the first read isn’t good enough to get open.

 

there are a lot of reasons this is happening, and I don’t even know wr is at the top of the list. First, Josh has always had a tendency to hold the ball…he’s not really an anticipatory thrower AND he has a ton of confidence in his ability to extend plays. Second, this offense has changed to more of a “run your route” style offense, which means the post snap defense has a lot of influence on where the ball is going. His first read is going to be based on his presnap read. It’s not like he picks a receiver and says “get open” and the receiver can’t, so he moves on.

 

Honestly, I don’t think the problem is the receivers, per se. I think trying to read the whole field under pressure while trying to not make a mistake is causing Josh to be indecisive. It doesn’t help that none of the receivers can just destroy man coverage and make it easy for him, I guess…but he shouldn’t need that if he is who we think he is. 
 

pretty much, I think Josh is the best thrower of the football in the NFL and I don’t think it is close…that covers up the fact that he is middle of the pack when it comes to decision making, and this offense and receiver core is exposing that to a certain extent. Hopefully some more “easy” reads with Cooper gets the job done.

 

While I’m not 100% with you, I think your points have a lot of merit.   To that end, why can other teams scheme to player strengths and we continue to try to force a scheme to work regardless of the pieces?  It’s beyond infuriating to know what JA CAN DO, then watch this JV scheme struggle to move the ball.

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

 

This is what he said.  Look, I'm one of the biggest McD critics there is, but I think people are reading into it too much.  McDermott wasn't crapping on Cooper. He was trying to strike a balance between making sure the current WR room knows he still has faith in them and at the same time, be optimistic how Cooper can make it better.

Outside of Coleman and Kincaid I don't give a damn if McDermott has faith in the WR room or they need affirmation from him. They have sucked to this point and sorry Sean ONE GUY has saved your sorry ass in Buffalo and his name is Josh Allen. McDermotts same old BS has gotten beyond old.  

[Mikey152]

16 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

 

While I’m not 100% with you, I think your points have a lot of merit.   To that end, why can other teams scheme to player strengths and we continue to try to force a scheme to work regardless of the pieces?  It’s beyond infuriating to know what JA CAN DO, then watch this JV scheme struggle to move the ball.

Dorsey had a JA friendly system...

[DCofNC]

2 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Dorsey had a JA friendly system...

Did he? Seems as though Dorsey’s scheme isn’t working in Cleveland either.

 

Daboll did, Dorsey left too much to the WRs and caused confusion.

[starrymessenger]

With Coop this year's WR room is now as good and probably even a little better than last year's group. True we took a big cap hit for Diggs but now we are paying an equivalent player peanuts, plus we have scooped a 2nd rounder from Houston.

[Billz4ever]

11 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Outside of Coleman and Kincaid I don't give a damn if McDermott has faith in the WR room or they need affirmation from him. They have sucked to this point and sorry Sean ONE GUY has saved your sorry ass in Buffalo and his name is Josh Allen. McDermotts same old BS has gotten beyond old.  

 

I'm not even going to argue that because you're right about Josh, but as the HC, you have a team to manage and expecting him to kiss the rear end of a guy who hasn't even walked through the door yet or taken a snap in a Bills uni isn't a good look.

 

You really think Cooper is on this team without McD's blessing or input?

 

You left out Shakir, who's also been great.

 

 

Edited October 16 by Billz4ever

[NoName]

I'm watching the Facility (on FS1), and they are saying that Amari Cooper will be the best receiver that Josh has ever played with.  Is Amari a better receiver than Diggs?

Edited October 16 by NoName

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s not what this is saying. It is where you intend to throw the ball, not what’s closest to the LOS.

With all due respect I’m not sure anyone knows what this saying. And my point still stands. Offensive routes are complicated and intended to open in sequence. While I understand the desire to blame our WRs it’s quite possible this isn’t their ‘fault’. There are many variables at play. 

[Kirby Jackson]

28 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Ah yes, I am sure Ross Tucker poured over hours of tape before making that claim...

 

And I have watched the games and some all-22, including some posted on here. In fact, there were just two clips the other day "proving" that our WR don't get separation...Only, the first they showed had 7 DBs in cover 2 and Kincaid could have been wide open but he ran right at the safety, not to mention the back was available and Josh didn't even look at him. But please, tell me all about how that was on the WR.

 

FWIW, Diggs wasn't really getting separation when they made the switch to Brady, either...everyone assumed he just lost a step or was disinterested. But maybe it has more to do with the scheme, and more specifically with the type of adjustments they are allowed to run. It's pretty clear (to me) that, unlike under Dorsey, the WR are being coached to run the routes as assigned. That pretty much means the route combinations become the coverage beater, not the player. In theory, that works...but it forces your QB to process a lot more information pre and post snap and generally only one or two guys will be open on a given play.

 

 

Oh and as for teams with bad receivers throwing less to first read...maybe you should take off the blinders and look at the other teams below average in that stat...Bears, Packers, Lions, Niners, Vikings...those are all good receiver teams.

Matt Harmon’s expertise on the subject good enough?

 

 

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

No, I don't think he should do anything of the sort, stop being stupid.  He should express confidence in what we have.  But his "I don't know, we'll see when he gets here.  It's never about one guy...  It's not about one guy" is middle-school level garbage.  He could actually welcome the guy and his talents a little more warmly while not harping on a non-existent problem.   Cooper will fit in with our culture, I think McD implies otherwise and that's a bad move for a first impression.

He was discussing Cooper’s prospective role against the Titans.  If you were just looking for reasons to be salty, then assuming McD meant more than that was a neat trick.  Congrats.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect I’m not sure anyone knows what this saying. And my point still stands. Offensive routes are complicated and intended to open in sequence. While I understand the desire to blame our WRs it’s quite possible this isn’t their ‘fault’. There are many variables at play. 

We are in agreement that multiple factors are at play. Josh holds a small part. Brady holds a larger part. The WRs hold the largest part (imo). Cooper should alleviate a lot of that. 

[Mikey152]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Matt Harmon’s expertise on the subject good enough?

 

 

I don't know, does it?  Matt Harmon also loves Curtis Samuel because he separates...

 

Matt Harmon has an agenda. The idea that on a given play all the receivers will be open/separating is just silly. 

Edited October 16 by Mikey152

[mannc]

36 minutes ago, Doc said:

Great move and a no-brainer given the salary. And the Bills have an extra 2nd rounder that they can trade down with to recoup the 3rd. 

Or bundle one or more of their three fourth-round picks to move up…

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Or bundle one or more of their three fourth-round picks to move up…

The Bills have a ridiculous amount of draft picks next year: 10 total, 6 in the first four rounds, and zero in the seventh round. Giving up the third rounder for the upgrade is a no-brainer. 

[Billz4ever]

11 minutes ago, NoName said:

I'm watching the Facility (on FS1), and they are saying that Amari Cooper will be the best receiver that Josh has ever played with.  Is Amari a better receiver than Diggs?

In the sense there should be a lot less drama and Josh shouldn't feel he needs to force feed him the ball, I would agree.

 

Diggs might have had a slight edge on overall talent, but at the stage where both are in their careers, I think whatever gap there might have been there has closed.

[starrymessenger]

16 minutes ago, NoName said:

I'm watching the Facility (on FS1), and they are saying that Amari Cooper will be the best receiver that Josh has ever played with.  Is Amari a better receiver than Diggs?

They are equivalent talents imo. Cooper is much less the diva than Diggs personality wise. Complete professional.

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The Bills have a ridiculous amount of draft picks next year: 10 total, 6 in the first four rounds, and zero in the seventh round. Giving up the third rounder for the upgrade is a no-brainer. 

And if they choose not to re-sign Cooper at the end of the year, he will likely return a 2026 4th or 5th round comp pick.

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

And if they choose not to re-sign Cooper at the end of the year, he will likely return a 2026 4th or 5th round comp pick.

He can’t get us a comp pick because he has void years on his deal

[Bangarang]

22 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Did he? Seems as though Dorsey’s scheme isn’t working in Cleveland either.

 

Daboll did, Dorsey left too much to the WRs and caused confusion.

 

Dorsey doesn't run the offense in Cleveland fwiw 

[Bruffalo]

11 minutes ago, NoName said:

I'm watching the Facility (on FS1), and they are saying that Amari Cooper will be the best receiver that Josh has ever played with.  Is Amari a better receiver than Diggs?

He's certainly comparable. Diggs may be a slightly better route runner, Cooper is probably slightly better at contested catches. Neither is a top tier deep threat at this point in their careers (although he's certainly better than anyone on the roster right now).

 

Cooper has had way more playoff success, and probably more success as a WR with less.