Chris Simms- good and detailed breakdown of Allen’s struggles vs Houston

[Magox]

This was without doubt Josh Allen's worst game.

 

He threw balls that easily could have been intercepted, he was forcing passes down the field when there were many times throughout the game open receivers for underneath routes.   He bailed out of the pocket too early missing receivers on numerous opportunities.

 

On that last drive where everyone were blaming the receivers and McD/Brady, on two of the plays, specially the 2nd down play he had Kincaid open for an easy 7 yarder with a possibility of more yards afterwards, he also had the WR at the bottom for a 6 yarder and he also had Shavers who would have been open on an anticipation throw that would have been for about 12 yards.   

 

Honestly, I think his mental timing was off because Houston was getting decent pressure and he began rushing himself and in the 2nd half he tried to make big plays down the field rather than going for the easy stuff which was there.

 

It happens to the best of them, hopefully he gets back to basics and looks for those underneath passes that are there to be had.  

[Einstein]

5 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The one Simms said he should have thrown to Cook that you keep disagreeing with was lack of anticipation. He should be able to understand leverage and momentum but he struggles with it at times. Big reason why RAC was poor most of his career. 

Ok, let me explain what happened here, since it appears that Chris Simms really confused you.

Here is the route tree for this play:



The red routes are not actual progressions. They exist only to clear out defenders. 

 

At the bottom of the screen, Coleman is clearing out for Cook, who is running the wheel route. At the top of the screen, Knox is clearing out for Kincaid, who is running upfield.

The problem? Knox fails MISERABLY on the rub route. As seen in the picture below, Knox's job is to delay Kincaid's defender, so Kincaid can turn up field for a big gain.



But instead of boxing Kincaid's defender out temporarily, he whiffs (with the help of a little tug by the CB on him) and lets the defender go right past him and stick to Kincaid like glue.



Because of this one whiff on the rub, the ENTIRE right side of the field is blanketed.

Now let's bring it back to Cook.

 

Allen knows that he has 3 options on this play. Cook on the wheel, Kincaid on the out and up with a rub from Knox, or a checkdown to Samuel.

He snaps the ball and looks to Cook. At this time in his progression, Cook has not yet beat the LB.

Your point is that Josh should just anticipate that Cook will beat the LB and throw it up.

 

Problem with that? Allen also knows there is a deeper defender (the DB on Coleman), who Coleman didn't take far enough inside to clear him out from the play.

 

Allen knows that as soon as he throws this ball, the deeper defender has the chance to beat Cook to the ball, as he is not only further downfield than Cook, but also has the angle. If you look at Allen’s head here, it’s not looking at Cook - he’s looking at the deep defender who could break off and nab the ball if the throws it.

In other words, Allen sees an INT happening if he throws this ball here.



As mentioned above, what likely happened here is that Coleman didn't take his slant deep enough inside. He didn't do a good enough job of clearing out, which left his defender in position to possibly make a play on the ball to Cook.

So Allen is likely thinking.... "I can throw this up to Cook, hope he beats the LB, AND hope the backside defender doesn't go and INT it. Orrrrrr... I could move on to my rub route on the other side of the field which has one of my most sure handed receivers."

So he moves on to his next progression.

Of course, Allen doesn't know that Knox whiffed on his rub route responsibilities and that the play is blown up over there.

The above is what actually happened on this play. It was extremely lazy analysis by Simms, who I typically like.

But here's the thing - all these talking heads who played pro ball - they know this stuff. They're not stupid. But they don't actually have time to analyze these plays because they're talking about 32 different teams each week. So instead, its probably just an intern grabbing screenshots and giving them talking points and guys like Simms have to talk about it, perhaps on the fly, while looking at the the play for only the first or second time without breaking it down themselves.

If you want someone to blame on this play:

1) Knox, who doesnt complete the rub.
2) Coleman, who didnt take his route far enough inside to clear the DB from peeling off and helping with Cook if Allen throws it.
 

20 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No surprises (that) 90% of this board doesn't know what they're seeing

Agreed. 

We have a disaster class happening at WR, TE, and O-line and people are pointing at Allen. Lineman not picking up blocks, WR's dropping balls, TE's missing rub responsibilities. But it's Allen... Boggles my mind.

Edited October 11 by Einstein

[Royale with Cheese]

Greg Cossell is on WGR

51 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Ok, let me explain what happened here, since it appears that Chris Simms really confused you.

Here is the route tree for this play:



The red routes are not actual progressions. They exist only to clear out defenders. 

 

At the bottom of the screen, Coleman is clearing out for Cook, who is running the wheel route. At the top of the screen, Knox is clearing out for Kincaid, who is running upfield.

The problem? Knox fails MISERABLY on the rub route. As seen in the picture below, Knox's job is to delay Kincaid's defender, so Kincaid can turn up field for a big gain.



But instead of boxing Kincaid's defender out temporarily, he whiffs (with the help of a little tug by the CB on him) and lets the defender go right past him and stick to Kincaid like glue.



Because of this one whiff on the rub, the ENTIRE right side of the field is blanketed.

Now let's bring it back to Cook.

 

Allen knows that he has 3 options on this play. Cook on the wheel, Kincaid on the out and up with a rub from Knox, or a checkdown to Samuel.

He snaps the ball and looks to Cook. At this time in his progression, Cook has not yet beat the LB.

Your point is that Josh should just anticipate that Cook will beat the LB and throw it up.

 

Problem with that? Allen also knows there is a deeper defender (the DB on Coleman), who Coleman didn't take far enough inside to clear him out from the play. Allen knows that as soon as he throws this ball, the deeper defender has the chance to beat Cook to the ball, as he is not only further downfield than Cook, but also has the angle. 

In other words, Allen sees an INT happening if he throws this ball here.



As mentioned above, what likely happened here is that Coleman didn't take his slant deep enough inside. He didn't do a good enough job of clearing out, which left his defender in position to possibly make a play on the ball to Cook.

So Allen is likely thinking.... "I can throw this up to Cook, hope he beats the LB, AND hope the backside defender doesn't go and INT it. Orrrrrr... I could move on to my rub route on the other side of the field which has one of my most sure handed receivers."

So he moves on to his next progression.

Of course, Allen doesn't know that Knox whiffed on his rub route responsibilities and that the play is blown up over there.

The above is what actually happened on this play. It was extremely lazy analysis by Simms, who I typically like.

But here's the thing - all these talking heads who played pro ball - they know this stuff. They're not stupid. But they don't actually have time to analyze these plays because they're talking about 32 different teams each week. So instead, its probably just an intern grabbing screenshots and giving them talking points and guys like Simms have to talk about it, perhaps on the fly, while looking at the the play for only the first or second time without breaking it down themselves.

If you want someone to blame on this play:

1) Knox, who doesnt complete the rub.
2) Coleman, who didnt take his route far enough inside to clear the DB from peeling off and helping with Cook if Allen throws it.
 

Agreed. 

We have a disaster class happening at WR, TE, and O-line and people are pointing at Allen. Lineman not picking up blocks, WR's dropping balls, TE's missing rub responsibilities. But it's Allen... Boggles my mind.

 

It actually boggles the mind that people are claiming it's ONLY Allen.  No one has said that, they just said he had a bad game and everyone contributed to it. 

 

Does it boggle your mind that PFF graded Allen's passing against HOU in the 30's?

You keep disagreeing with people that said Allen played poorly but when it comes to PFF, in which you hold in ultra high regard....you don't answer that question.

Edited October 11 by Royale with Cheese

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

 

i posted this in another thread.  As Diggs stated after the game, last weeks game did mean more to him.  Maybe the same was true here for Allen.  He wanted to show that the comment "Sure about that" WRT Allen wasn't because of Diggs, but was mostly due to him.  It seems like in general it doesn't take much to Allen a little amped up and playing against Diggs could have done that.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, Magox said:

This was without doubt Josh Allen's worst game.

 

He threw balls that easily could have been intercepted, he was forcing passes down the field when there were many times throughout the game open receivers for underneath routes.   He bailed out of the pocket too early missing receivers on numerous opportunities.

 

On that last drive where everyone were blaming the receivers and McD/Brady, on two of the plays, specially the 2nd down play he had Kincaid open for an easy 7 yarder with a possibility of more yards afterwards, he also had the WR at the bottom for a 6 yarder and he also had Shavers who would have been open on an anticipation throw that would have been for about 12 yards.   

 

Honestly, I think his mental timing was off because Houston was getting decent pressure and he began rushing himself and in the 2nd half he tried to make big plays down the field rather than going for the easy stuff which was there.

 

It happens to the best of them, hopefully he gets back to basics and looks for those underneath passes that are there to be had.  

I think he gave up on the underneath middle stuff knowing Houston was mostly doing a good job taking it away so even on the plays where he had it he was passing it up too.

 

that 6-9 jags loss a couple years back gave me worse vibes than this one lol 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

 

Problem with that? Allen also knows there is a deeper defender (the DB on Coleman), who Coleman didn't take far enough inside to clear him out from the play. Allen knows that as soon as he throws this ball, the deeper defender has the chance to beat Cook to the ball, as he is not only further downfield than Cook, but also has the angle. 

In other words, Allen sees an INT happening if he throws this ball here.


 

Is Usain Bolts faster twin covering Coleman?  If not, there’s no chance he can recover from his momentum from covering Coleman.  Cook would’ve roasted him no matter what.  
 

To me, this looks like you’re just doing your best to throw 💩 on the wall with hopes that it will stick.   I can’t blame you though-  when you can’t ever come to say that you’re wrong, you have to do what you have to do.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

We have a disaster class happening at WR, TE, and O-line and people are pointing at Allen. Lineman not picking up blocks, WR's dropping balls, TE's missing rub responsibilities. But it's Allen... Boggles my mind.

 

In the first half on Sunday, yea, a chunk of it WAS Allen. That isn't to dispute we have all the other stuff going on too and he isn't getting a lot of help. Both can be true at the same time. 

 

On the specific play I agree that Coleman doesn't clear the defender out as well as he should the ball should still go to Cook on that play. There is plenty of room to put that ball outside and in a place where only Cook can make a play - even if that is a safer throw and restricts the YAC that is less of a concern because it's first down. And he comes off and then ends up trying a much lower percentage play. It is exactly my point above. I understand why Josh comes off it, people did not execute around him. But he still makes a wrong decision and in that first half he made too many of them. I think Josh played a really good first 4 games. Even at Baltimore where the offense struggled I think for the most part Josh did as much as he could. He did not play well in that first half at Houston. I understand why people want to leap to his defence, but you gotta shut the emotion off and judge how he played. And it was a poor half from him. It happens.

[Repulsif]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:39 PM, finn said:

Allen played so badly (as did others) that I wonder if he was concussed before he hit his head the first time. I'm convinced he was definitely concussed afterwards. As bad as his receivers and line were--and are--he's played with worse. That was a different quarterback out there. 

He was concussed 

Watch the video and at his head then arm

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Is Usain Bolts faster twin covering Coleman?  If not, there’s no chance he can recover from his momentum from covering Coleman.  Cook would’ve roasted him no matter what.  
 

To me, this looks like you’re just doing your best to throw 💩 on the wall with hopes that it will stick.   I can’t blame you though-  when you can’t ever come to say that you’re wrong, you have to do what you have to do.  

Stop protecting Simms. He was terrible in this analysis. Yes there are valid reasons as to why, maybe he's working w a new film intern or just had a bad day. It's weird how any criticism of Simms is met w such hostility. Blah blah blah

[nedboy7]

Ignore the people who played and analyze the game for a living.  Trust TBD.  Nah. 

[Royale with Cheese]

30 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

Ignore the people who played and analyze the game for a living.  Trust TBD.  Nah. 

It boggles my mind.  

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Is Usain Bolts faster twin covering Coleman?  If not, there’s no chance he can recover from his momentum from covering Coleman.  Cook would’ve roasted him no matter what.  
 

To me, this looks like you’re just doing your best to throw 💩 on the wall with hopes that it will stick.   I can’t blame you though-  when you can’t ever come to say that you’re wrong, you have to do what you have to do.  

The only chance, the ONLY chance, Coleman’s defender had to take Cook out of the play is if he and the LB communicated before the snap to switch off (which would’ve been highly unlikely given the player each is guarding). In that instance we all would’ve saw the DB bail on Coleman once he settles and start sprinting back to defend Cook on the long ball. Here he stays tight on his responsibility and remains in Coleman’s hip pocket, so he has zero chance of playing any upfield pass that goes to Cook. Not even Usain Bolt or Christian Coleman could’ve got to Cook flat footed like that. Wouldn’t even happen in a video game with speed levels at 99.

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

Ok, let me explain what happened here, since it appears that Chris Simms really confused you.

Here is the route tree for this play:



The red routes are not actual progressions. They exist only to clear out defenders. 

 

At the bottom of the screen, Coleman is clearing out for Cook, who is running the wheel route. At the top of the screen, Knox is clearing out for Kincaid, who is running upfield.

The problem? Knox fails MISERABLY on the rub route. As seen in the picture below, Knox's job is to delay Kincaid's defender, so Kincaid can turn up field for a big gain.



But instead of boxing Kincaid's defender out temporarily, he whiffs (with the help of a little tug by the CB on him) and lets the defender go right past him and stick to Kincaid like glue.



Because of this one whiff on the rub, the ENTIRE right side of the field is blanketed.

Now let's bring it back to Cook.

 

Allen knows that he has 3 options on this play. Cook on the wheel, Kincaid on the out and up with a rub from Knox, or a checkdown to Samuel.

He snaps the ball and looks to Cook. At this time in his progression, Cook has not yet beat the LB.

Your point is that Josh should just anticipate that Cook will beat the LB and throw it up.

 

Problem with that? Allen also knows there is a deeper defender (the DB on Coleman), who Coleman didn't take far enough inside to clear him out from the play.

 

Allen knows that as soon as he throws this ball, the deeper defender has the chance to beat Cook to the ball, as he is not only further downfield than Cook, but also has the angle. If you look at Allen’s head here, it’s not looking at Cook - he’s looking at the deep defender who could break off and nab the ball if the throws it.

In other words, Allen sees an INT happening if he throws this ball here.



As mentioned above, what likely happened here is that Coleman didn't take his slant deep enough inside. He didn't do a good enough job of clearing out, which left his defender in position to possibly make a play on the ball to Cook.

So Allen is likely thinking.... "I can throw this up to Cook, hope he beats the LB, AND hope the backside defender doesn't go and INT it. Orrrrrr... I could move on to my rub route on the other side of the field which has one of my most sure handed receivers."

So he moves on to his next progression.

Of course, Allen doesn't know that Knox whiffed on his rub route responsibilities and that the play is blown up over there.

The above is what actually happened on this play. It was extremely lazy analysis by Simms, who I typically like.

But here's the thing - all these talking heads who played pro ball - they know this stuff. They're not stupid. But they don't actually have time to analyze these plays because they're talking about 32 different teams each week. So instead, its probably just an intern grabbing screenshots and giving them talking points and guys like Simms have to talk about it, perhaps on the fly, while looking at the the play for only the first or second time without breaking it down themselves.

If you want someone to blame on this play:

1) Knox, who doesnt complete the rub.
2) Coleman, who didnt take his route far enough inside to clear the DB from peeling off and helping with Cook if Allen throws it.
 

Agreed. 

We have a disaster class happening at WR, TE, and O-line and people are pointing at Allen. Lineman not picking up blocks, WR's dropping balls, TE's missing rub responsibilities. But it's Allen... Boggles my mind.

Keep saying....Knox is useless 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Brand J said:

The only chance, the ONLY chance, Coleman’s defender had to take Cook out of the play is if he and the LB communicated before the snap to switch off (which would’ve been highly unlikely given the player each is guarding). In that instance we all would’ve saw the DB bail on Coleman once he settles and start sprinting back to defend Cook on the long ball. Here he stays tight on his responsibility and remains in Coleman’s hip pocket, so he has zero chance of playing any upfield pass that goes to Cook. Not even Usain Bolt or Christian Coleman could’ve got to Cook flat footed like that. Wouldn’t even happen in a video game with speed levels at 99.

wrong

 

Coleman's man is why Allen moves off the read

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Is Usain Bolts faster twin covering Coleman?  If not, there’s no chance he can recover from his momentum from covering Coleman.  Cook would’ve roasted him no matter what.  
 

To me, this looks like you’re just doing your best to throw 💩 on the wall with hopes that it will stick.   I can’t blame you though-  when you can’t ever come to say that you’re wrong, you have to do what you have to do.  

Read the last sentence in his post lol.

Not to mention, earlier in this thread, Einstein called PFF ridiculous with their grade on Mack Hollins lmfao!

 

He still hasn’t answered my question about PFF grading Allen not just poorly, downright awful in his passing last game. 
Make it make sense.

 

 

On 3/14/2023 at 12:42 PM, Einstein said:

 

Trusting an organization does not mean you like every decision they make. 

 

I trust my wife but I do not agree with every decision she makes. I trust my kids but I do not agree with every decision they make. 

 

You say NFL teams use the data and analytics but not the players grades. Where do you think the player grades are derived from!? The data and analytics!

 

You do not trust PFF because you find anecdotal evidence that their grades are wrong. But that's, again, just the opinion of the person writing that. And the interesting part is the person writing those articles watches WAY less film than PFF does. The PFF analysts watch every snap of every game all season long. They are often former coaches, players and scouts. The person judging PFF watches just their team and likely very little ALL-22 tape. That's the funny part to me. You and others criticize the grades of people who watch and know significantly more football than you do.

 

 

 

.

 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

wrong

 

Coleman's man is why Allen moves off the read

Tell me you haven’t been on a field without telling me you haven’t been on a field. Coleman’s defender can’t guard two players at the same time. He never bails from his responsibility, he wouldn’t have factored into a pass thrown over his head. Some of you posters in here are wild 😂

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Brand J said:

Tell me you haven’t been on a field without telling me you haven’t been on a field. Coleman’s defender can’t guard two players at the same time. He never bails from his responsibility, he wouldn’t have factored into a pass thrown over his head. Some of you posters in here are wild 😂

ill spare you the details of playing corner in hs lol

 

Allen motions Cook out presnap to ID the LB on the wheel. He knows exactly what that coverage is going to be. Coleman is *probably* supposed to either take his route inside or run a pick to spring him.

 

We've seen him make this throw a ton, he doesn't throw it because Coleman's man has eyes in the backfield the whole time

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

ill spare you the details of playing corner in hs lol

 

Allen motions Cook out presnap to ID the LB on the wheel. He knows exactly what that coverage is going to be. Coleman is *probably* supposed to either take his route inside or run a pick to spring him.

 

We've seen him make this throw a ton, he doesn't throw it because Coleman's man has eyes in the backfield the whole time

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what Coleman is doing on that route. It almost looks like he's trying to block the guy with his butt to free up the wheel. There's a ton of open space over the middle and if he just ran to that space he would have brought his man with him and the wheel would be wide open. Maybe Coleman didn't have the play call right? I mean later in the game a ball bounced off the back of his helmet so that's entirely possible. Otherwise the route spacing there makes no sense.

 

Edited October 11 by HappyDays

[Brand J]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

ill spare you the details of playing corner in hs lol

 

Allen motions Cook out presnap to ID the LB on the wheel. He knows exactly what that coverage is going to be. Coleman is *probably* supposed to either take his route inside or run a pick to spring him.

 

We've seen him make this throw a ton, he doesn't throw it because Coleman's man has eyes in the backfield the whole time

 

 

 

 

That’s right, Coleman’s defender is on him tight, facing Allen. His eyes are in the backfield. The ball can’t go to Coleman or it’ll be a break up at best. Where it can go is OVER that defender’s head, down the field. If you’ve played the sport you’d know that man would have no chance to turn around and run with Cook who already has a full head of steam. The fastest sprinters in the world wouldn’t factor into the play. He can’t peel off of Coleman to guard Cook unless that was his intention from the snap. In that scenario you would’ve seen him bail on his primary responsibility to pick up Cook while he’s streaking down the field. It can’t be after.

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have no idea what Coleman is doing on that route. It almost looks like he's trying to block the guy with his butt to free up the wheel. There's a ton of open space over the middle and if he just ran to that space he would have brought his man with him and the wheel would be wide open. Maybe Coleman didn't have the play call right? I mean later in the game a ball bounced off the back of his helmet so that's entirely possible. Otherwise the route spacing there makes no sense.

 

Ideally would’ve liked to see Coleman carry his route to that safety playing middle field to occupy him too. As it is, if Josh throws a perfect ball there Cook will still have to make that safety miss in order to score.

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have no idea what Coleman is doing on that route. It almost looks like he's trying to block the guy with his butt to free up the wheel. There's a ton of open space over the middle and if he just ran to that space he would have brought his man with him and the wheel would be wide open. Maybe Coleman didn't have the play call right? I mean later in the game a ball bounced off the back of his helmet so that's entirely possible. Otherwise the route spacing there makes no sense.

 

Either bad design or bad spacing from miscommunication 

 

This throw is typically layered in over the primary defender so all these guys saying Colemans man would have to be Usain Bolt have somehow never seen us run this play before