Chris Simms- good and detailed breakdown of Allen’s struggles vs Houston

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Perhaps as a former NFL QB he understands how play design and progressions are supposed to work and the rules they have in place usually?

 

Only if we agree with him lol.

 

If we don't, he's an idiot right.

 

Kinda like when a guy passes us on the road in the other lane, he's an idiot.  When we do it, we are correctly doing it.

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Yea I just made a more detailed post about it responding to someone else haha I think if he could devote more time on air to each game it would be different,  but it’s just the handful of plays that support their narrative and then the narrative.  They are tv personalities too and the narratives are what sells.   He knows more about football than I can learn in 5 lifetimes for sure 😂

That’s not really what I was trying to say haha but I mostly agree with you overall.  I think they get caught up pushing a narrative on air sometimes cuz it’s good tv 

 

In this case, I don't think there is a narrative.  Simms is a huge Allen supporter and understands the game. 

If it was the Gigantic Nose Guy on Fox Sports, then yes...definitely a narrative.

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I agree with this.

 

Simms and other NFL players can analyze film better than any of us on here.  

 

It's not just looking to see who is about to be open or open...there is so much more to it than that in which most of us don't even have an intermediate level of understanding.  I have watched film at the HS level and that's it.  I mean there are some obvious ones but to argue with someone that has played the position at the highest level like they don't have a clue, it's fan arrogance.

 

We are fans.  We argue based on mostly emotion and what we "feel".  

such a drag of a take

 

why criticize Allen at all then, he's an NFL QB and knows 100x more about the position than you

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Yea I just made a more detailed post about it responding to someone else haha I think if he could devote more time on air to each game it would be different,  but it’s just the handful of plays that support their narrative and then the narrative.  They are tv personalities too and the narratives are what sells.   He knows more about football than I can learn in 5 lifetimes for sure 😂

That’s not really what I was trying to say haha but I mostly agree with you overall.  I think they get caught up pushing a narrative on air sometimes cuz it’s good tv.  

Simms loves Allen.

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

such a drag of a take

 

why criticize Allen at all then, he's an NFL QB and knows 100x more about the position than you

 

Well I did say there are obvious ones and I also pointed we argue based on emotion....and arrogance.

 

Are you one of those guys that watches a professional boxing match and say "I could take him"?

Edited October 10 by Royale with Cheese

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Well I did say there are obvious ones and I also pointed we argue based on emotion.

 

Are you one of those guys that watches a professional boxing match and say "I could take him"?

can you just please go and watch the play im talking about

 

im not saying it's the correct decision but i am pretty sure i understand why Allen didn't throw the wheel to Cook

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Simms loves Allen.

Oh yea I’m not trying to say he doesn’t…maybe going the opposite way with it will illustrate the point better.

 

theres games where we see josh make some mistakes but he’s overall really good and chris simms will be like look at these four plays he’s the best player in football hands down 😂. It’s just better tv that way.  Doesn’t mean that Simms can’t run circles around all of us in film analysis he’s just gotta wear that tv personality hat too and it gets pretty grating for me at times even when he’s talking josh up lol

 

florio has that limitation also and knows way less so he’s much worse 

 

I don’t think it’s ever as bad or as good as the several plays they pick for analysis makes it look 

Edited October 10 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

can you just please go and watch the play im talking about

 

im not saying it's the correct decision but i am pretty sure i understand why Allen didn't throw the wheel to Cook

 

What is your interpretation on why he didn't throw it to Cook?  If you said it already, I didn't see your post on it.

 

I do agree with Simms that since Cook is running vertically against a slower linebacker running horizontally, Allen should have thrown it to Cook.  It's an anticipation throw and needed to have it delivered on that first screen shot, probably completed at the 45 yard line.

Probably wouldn't have to put too much air under it to avoid the safety from coming in.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

What is your interpretation on why he didn't throw it to Cook?  If you said it already, I didn't see your post on it.

 

I do agree with Simms that since Cook is running vertically against a slower linebacker running horizontally, Allen should have thrown it to Cook.  It's an anticipation throw and needed to have it delivered on that first screen shot, probably completed at the 45 yard line.

Probably wouldn't have to put too much air under it to avoid the safety from coming in.  

 

44 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

ok i am again going to stand in opposition. look at this play and tell me you see it differently ill listen

 

i don't like the route design on the cook play he singles out. they have Coleman run a little stop route right in front of Cook's wheel where the DB on Coleman has eyes in the backfield the whole time. i dont know if he's supposed to rub Cook's LB but it doesn't do anything except allow Coleman's man to keep his eyes on Allen and cover the route over the top. I think Allen moves off it because Coleman is supposed to run a clear out or the design just isn't good and he knows Coleman's DB can still play the shot to Cook.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

 

I can see that but I think the ball should still be thrown because Cook does speed and the angle.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I can see that but I think the ball should still be thrown because Cook does speed and the angle.

i can remember quite a few picks last year where either poor route design or just lazy running brought another defender into the play that shouldn't have been

 

im not saying there's nowhere for this throw to go. but if you are going to critique the decision you have to bring up Coleman's route and defender here

that has got to be a very muddy read from the pocket

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i can remember quite a few picks last year where either poor route design or just lazy running brought another defender into the play that shouldn't have been

 

im not saying there's nowhere for this throw to go. but if you are going to critique the decision you have to bring up Coleman's route and defender here

that has got to be a very muddy read from the pocket

 

I don't know the specific plays you're talking about so I can't comment on them.

 

I think there is enough field vision there for Allen to see but I don't know what he saw.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't know the specific plays you're talking about so I can't comment on them.

 

I think there is enough field vision there for Allen to see but I don't know what he saw.

this is immediately after Allen moves off Cook

 

 

Coleman's DB had eyes on QB the entire time

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really thought they were gonna lose this one because they decided to force a ball to diggs which would’ve been pretty great haha that would definitely be better though 

I think when qbs get pressured a bit they lose confidence in the oline then start pressing and it throws them all out of whack.  He might’ve played bad because the oline let him down a few times early but it’s still

pretty justifiable to say he played bad 

Yup. Both things can be true - and more. I managed to get through the first halves of All 22 on the Baltimore and Houston games. Not only do I think pressure and Allen’s play were issues, I would add the receivers to the list of problems. In fact, they're the biggest issue IMO. Ability to separate used to be the #1 trait the Bills looked for in their WR corps and I think Allen works a lot better on those “see receiver-throw ball” situations versus anticipation throws (though he does a good job with MOF anticipation throws). I’m just not seeing separation on most plays.

 

What is even more concerning is that defenses aren’t even keeping 7 or 8 back in coverage to do it. Receivers are pretty well covered despite seeing a lot of man coverage with a single high safety. It’s allowing defenses to show a loaded fronts where the OL has to determine who is coming and who is bailing. Then we have the added issue of Allen extending plays and taking more hits. He is getting paid large to perform, even in difficult circumstances, but it’s disappointing to see so much piled onto his shoulders. No QB is perfect and putting your elite QB into the best possible circumstances to help your team win should be job 1. The Bills obviously have not done that. They need to get him more help. 

[DapperCam]

I can understand Allen deciding not to pass on a Cook wheel route 20+ yards down the field where he just has half a step on his guy (that is when Allen would have needed to decide to throw it).

 

It’s a low percentage play because:

- It’s a very difficult throw

- Cook seems to drop these 50% of the time.

- His coverage probably catches back up to interrupt the play (maybe draw PI?) unless it is a flawless throw.

[JerseyBills]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The two worst games I have seen Allen play was at Green Bay in 2018 and this past Sunday.  

 

I really, I really hope we meet Houston again in the playoffs.  He isn't playing like that again. 

 

With how bad we played on Sunday and still should have won....I don't think it's close the second time.

Agreed but they were without a top 5 WR most of the game, he still left his mark with 80× yards and a TD.

 

We were missing our #1 as well all game

 

[ren1701]

3 hours ago, Brand J said:

I remember Dan Orlovsky last year said that Allen needs to “grow up,” after that Jets performance. Said he literally holds the future of the staff in his hands with every throw he attempts. This game against Houston was another one of those mind-numbingly bad games he seems to have every year and I don’t get it. A 7 year vet who at this point has seen every defense you want to throw at him, by all accounts is very smart, can literally make any throw on the field, but is still getting taken to the wood shed mentally. Regardless of whatever offensive system he’s in, or who he’s surrounded by, his floor should be much higher than this and I don’t understand why it’s not. If you could be a fly on the wall in the box where Brady calls the game, no doubt he’s said at least once “he (Josh) is killing us.”

Totally agree but it is just masking the real issue. When Superman can't find his cape, either there is no play makers or they have no plan and I am going to think a little of both. When Allen plays like this, you are seeing the Bills for what they are, whether you want to admit it or not - a .500 club with mediocre coaching and until they can play a game with Allen on the bench and win, I think teams will exploit this all day long. The coaches failed 100%, they saw he was having a bad day (everybody does) and they had NO answer for it.

[JerseyBills]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

this is immediately after Allen moves off Cook

 

 

Coleman's DB had eyes on QB the entire time

Should've ran for 7-10 yards 

[HappyDays]

37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

ok i am again going to stand in opposition. look at this play and tell me you see it differently ill listen

 

i don't like the route design on the cook play he singles out. they have Coleman run a little stop route right in front of Cook's wheel where the DB on Coleman has eyes in the backfield the whole time. i dont know if he's supposed to rub Cook's LB but it doesn't do anything except allow Coleman's man to keep his eyes on Allen and cover the route over the top. I think Allen moves off it because Coleman is supposed to run a clear out or the design just isn't good and he knows Coleman's DB can still play the shot to Cook.

 

I can appreciate this analysis. Here's the play for anyone that wants to watch it:

 

Last year some of Allen's INTs came when defenders that weren't covering the intended target were able to read the play and uncover from their man to get into the passing window. Good example would actually be Bernard's INT against Stroud in this game. Stroud makes technically the right read but Bernard is right there and recognizes it fast enough to make the play. Something I have noticed this year is that Allen is intentionally trying to avoid that scenario. So yeah I think it's very possible on this play he sees Coleman's defender with eyes on Allen and doesn't trust that the window will be there if he throws it before Cook gets behind Coleman. Like you said I don't know if that's a good or a bad decision, but it's better analysis than "Allen doesn't know what he's seeing" so I appreciate the attempt to figure out why he didn't make a throw that he has never hesitated to throw before.

 

Allen obviously had an off game in the 1st half, I'm not going to dispute that. His internal clock seemed to be moving a tick too fast which led to the somewhat jumpy appearance of his play, before he settled down in the 2nd half. I have no doubt that trust issues with his OL and pass catchers influenced his internal clock, but he owns some of that himself either way.

 

But my biggest concern coming out of the game is that when Allen has an off half of football (which is guaranteed to happen several times over the course of a season) the offense looks completely non-functional. I mean there is just nothing in the play design or the skill sets of his pass catchers that gives us any kind of margin for error, especially without Shakir. Like okay let's say the throw to Hollins was a tad overthrown. If Hollins has even average NFL speed or body control that is still a catch. Deep completions are not typically pinpoint accurate and they're as much about timing as accuracy.

 

I couldn't tell you what our bread and butter plays are. Or even what our offensive identity is in general. We came into this game not having the necessary personnel to execute the proper game plan for Houston's defense, and not having the crispness of play designs and execution that the elite offensive coaches bring to the table. Allen will be fine. The other problems won't be. That's the takeaway that actually matters here IMO.

[GoBills808]

Just now, JerseyBills said:

Should've ran for 7-10 yards 

sure that's an option

 

but people would still be complaining he turned down the play to Cook and i don't think that decision is necessarily a mistake

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

this is immediately after Allen moves off Cook

 

 

Coleman's DB had eyes on QB the entire time

 

IMO, Cook still has the angle.  It's an anticipation throw.