The one Tweet that perfectly sums up the Bills' offensive struggles right now

[Logic]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

that's a very generous interpretation of the offense

 

i would say they constructed the it to minimize turnovers, maximize TOP, and grind games out. there's not much in our personnel or scheme, past or present, that leads me to believe this is some factory built cover2 beating machine

I think the age old myth that Sean McDermott loves low-scoring, TOP, grind-it-out games needs to die.

He likes to have a run game, which as the Chiefs and other good offenses have shown, does feel like a pretty important thing to be able to lean on at times. That's about it. 

If you think he doesn't want the offense to score 40 points a week, and that he'd rather win 17-16 games...I just don't know what evidence you have to support that claim whatsoever.

For all the things one can criticize Sean McDermott about -- and there is a decent sized list -- being a conservative, old school, "grind it out" coach just isn't one of them. That old trope needs to die.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I think the age old myth that Sean McDermott loves low-scoring, TOP, grind-it-out games needs to die.

He likes to have a run game, which as the Chiefs and other good offenses have shown, does feel like a pretty important thing to be able to lean on at times. That's about it. 

If you think he doesn't want the offense to score 40 points a week, and that he'd rather win 17-16 games...I just don't know what evidence you have to support that claim whatsoever.

For all the things one can criticize Sean McDermott about -- and there is a decent sized list -- being a conservative, old school, "grind it out" coach just isn't one of them. That old trope needs to die.

"Not good enough," McDermott repeated for the trillionth time in what will go down as the title to their 2021 highlight mix. "We've got to be able to run the football, we've got to be able to stop the run. And those things don't change. The message hasn't changed in terms of ... the necessity for physicality and what we do. That's why we start training camp the way we do, with running the football, and you've got to win the line of scrimmage."

 

and

 

"... If you were in the team meetings in training camp, you would know what style of offense I want and what style of defense I want, what style of football team I want. And that identity ... is shaped in training camp, and that identity needs to embody toughness.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

15 minutes ago, <bills4life> said:

And yet he has 9 catches in 5 games.  Explain that for me. Either he isn’t being utilized right or these stats are not accurate. Less than 2 receptions a game. 

This is my cue to provide the daily reminder that due to blowouts in either direction we are nearly missing an entire game of offensive production in a 5 game season if you’re looking at stats like total targets and stuff 
 

also watching games like the chiefs game last night seems to give people this false notion that receivers get open way more than they actually do.  If you look at those win rates the highest ones are in the high 20s…that means 70% of the time they’re not winning. 
 

and the next question is, 15% of what?  A team that runs the ball more there’s gonna be less total routes run so that factors in when you’re comparing it to per game targets 

im also not really sure how they handle situations where Keon wins but  josh is under pressure and can’t feasibly get him the ball, id assume that counts as a win still 

 

so there’s a bunch that factors into it 

Edited 3 hours ago by Generic_Bills_Fan

[HappyDays]

25 minutes ago, Logic said:

The Bills offense DOES appear to primarily be built to beat the two-deep shell the Bills (and other high powered offenses) have been seeing a ton for the better part of two seasons. 

 

I don't know. Nobody was ever saying "the Bills offense needs to be built EXCLUSIVELY to beat cover 2 shell." The thought was that we needed some kind of answers built in to win against that coverage, while still retaining the ability to beat any other coverage.

 

There has been a pervasive thought here and elsewhere in the Bills social media sphere that teams would just always let us get away with cheap yards over and over again, and as long as Allen remains patient we'll be unstoppable. It turns out well-coached defenses aren't going to just lay down and die for us. They're going to force the issue until we prove we can beat it. For two weeks now our personnel and our scheme haven't proven they can beat it. So the trend will continue.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know. Nobody was ever saying "the Bills offense needs to be built EXCLUSIVELY to beat cover 2 shell." The thought was that we needed some kind of answers built in to win against that coverage, while still retaining the ability to beat any other coverage.

 

There has been a pervasive thought here and elsewhere in the Bills social media sphere that teams would just always let us get away with cheap yards over and over again, and as long as Allen remains patient we'll be unstoppable. It turns out well-coached defenses aren't going to just lay down and die for us. They're going to force the issue until we prove we can beat it. For two weeks now our personnel and our scheme haven't proven they can beat it. So the trend will continue.

yeah that's what the 'take what the defense gives you' folk don't understand

 

the defense is giving you that because they want to. you need to be able to take what the defense doesn't want to give you

[Logic]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know. Nobody was ever saying "the Bills offense needs to be built EXCLUSIVELY to beat cover 2 shell." The thought was that we needed some kind of answers built in to win against that coverage, while still retaining the ability to beat any other coverage.

 

There has been a pervasive thought here and elsewhere in the Bills social media sphere that teams would just always let us get away with cheap yards over and over again, and as long as Allen remains patient we'll be unstoppable. It turns out well-coached defenses aren't going to just lay down and die for us. They're going to force the issue until we prove we can beat it. For two weeks now our personnel and our scheme haven't proven they can beat it. So the trend will continue.

I agree with that.

I think the general thrust of the Tweet I quoted is that the Bills leaned very heavily into re-shaping their personnel and scheme to be able to beat the two-high stuff, and that it may have come at the expense of being as effective as we once were against man coverage. 

Going from WRs like Diggs, Brown, and Sanders to big-bodied guys like Coleman and Hollins and Shavers says to me that -- right or wrong -- they prioritized blocking in the run game and beating zone coverage over separating against man coverage. 

The way the original Tweet was stated may have been an exaggeration. Surely they didn't literally say "we're gonna build our team JUST to beat two-high shell", but I do think they put conscious thought and effort into ensuring their offense was built to be able to do so, and that that evolution may have come at the expense of some of the dynamism against man coverage they once possessed.

[Simon]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

jags for sure but dolphins also iirc played us in single high a bunch

 

granted they didn't do a great job but the book is out

 

Maybe.

One thing those teams do seem to have in common is the desire to play more man coverages than other NFL teams, and that is poking the bear with Allen.

[Logic]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

"Not good enough," McDermott repeated for the trillionth time in what will go down as the title to their 2021 highlight mix. "We've got to be able to run the football, we've got to be able to stop the run. And those things don't change. The message hasn't changed in terms of ... the necessity for physicality and what we do. That's why we start training camp the way we do, with running the football, and you've got to win the line of scrimmage."

 

and

 

"... If you were in the team meetings in training camp, you would know what style of offense I want and what style of defense I want, what style of football team I want. And that identity ... is shaped in training camp, and that identity needs to embody toughness.

I don't see ANYTHING in the bolded quotes that says "I want a low scoring, TOP, grind-it-out offense".

He said he wants to be able to win the line of scrimmage, run the football, and embody toughness. Ask the 31 other coaches in the league and they'll all tell you they want to do be able to do the same things.

When things are humming with the Bills offense and they're scoring 30+ and boat racing teams, you think McDermott is upset? When Josh Allen throws for four touchdowns and wins offensive player of the week, you think he'd prefer that James Cook had won it instead?

Saying you want to win the line of scrimmage and be able to run the football does not equal "I want low scoring, grind-it-out games that prioritize time of possession over scoring". 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't see ANYTHING in the bolded quotes that says "I want a low scoring, TOP, grind-it-out offense".

He said he wants to be able to win the line of scrimmage, run the football, and embody toughness. Ask the 31 other coaches in the league and they'll all tell you they want to do be able to do the same things.

When things are humming with the Bills offense and they're scoring 30+ and boat racing teams, you think McDermott is upset? When Josh Allen throws for four touchdowns and wins offensive player of the week, you think he'd prefer that James Cook had won it instead?

Saying you want to win the line of scrimmage and be able to run the football does not equal "I want low scoring, grind-it-out games that prioritize time of possession over scoring". 

McDermott clearly doesn’t want to score points.  This is what he said before the season.  I guess he changed his mind.

 

“Yes and no," McDermott said. "When you are not scoring points on offense, is it a concern? Yeah, because that’s what we are looking to do on offense. That said, I think if you dive into it and you’re looking at why, I think there’s been some times where we have moved the chains enough to get into a rhythm and then we shoot ourselves in the foot as I mentioned.“

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-sean-mcdermott-preseason-scoring-woes

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't see ANYTHING in the bolded quotes that says "I want a low scoring, TOP, grind-it-out offense".

He said he wants to be able to win the line of scrimmage, run the football, and embody toughness. Ask the 31 other coaches in the league and they'll all tell you they want to do be able to do the same things.

When things are humming with the Bills offense and they're scoring 30+ and boat racing teams, you think McDermott is upset? When Josh Allen throws for four touchdowns and wins offensive player of the week, you think he'd prefer that James Cook had won it instead?

Saying you want to win the line of scrimmage and be able to run the football does not equal "I want low scoring, grind-it-out games that prioritize time of possession over scoring". 

Yea imagine if the quote was ‘I want to run it ok but pass it all over the place and not really stop the run’ 🤣. Like what coach doesn’t want to run it well and stop the run lol

[balln]

43 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I think that the alarming success rate of Baltimore's blitzes gave the impression that they were blitzing much more than they were.

They were certainly showing a ton, but they were backing out of most of them.

Yea I think in reality they didn’t bring that many extra man traditional blitzing. It was all simulated pressure. And our line sucked at identifying it

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

McDermott clearly doesn’t want to score points.  This is what he said before the season.  I guess he changed his mind.

 

“Yes and no," McDermott said. "When you are not scoring points on offense, is it a concern? Yeah, because that’s what we are looking to do on offense. That said, I think if you dive into it and you’re looking at why, I think there’s been some times where we have moved the chains enough to get into a rhythm and then we shoot ourselves in the foot as I mentioned.“

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-sean-mcdermott-preseason-scoring-woes

You are reaching badly on this one but I think you know that 😂. The question was are you concerned your offense hasn’t scored more points in the preseason and the answer was well yea we want more points obviously and I think if we stop making dumba** self inflicted mistakes we’ll score my points 

 

unquestionably he means he’s not overly concerned because they can clean things up and score more points. There is literally no other valid interpretation 

Edited 3 hours ago by Generic_Bills_Fan

[billsfan89]

I think teams have adjusted to how to play against WR's being "schemed" open and are daring WR's to make plays in tighter windows. This is just my eye test amateur take but it seems like teams are just saying hey we know the Bills WR's aren't very good outside of Shakir and maybe Keon so let's have them beat us so to speak. Joe Brady is going to have to adjust to the counters seen the past couple of weeks. 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I think the general thrust of the Tweet I quoted is that the Bills leaned very heavily into re-shaping their personnel and scheme to be able to beat the two-high stuff, and that it may have come at the expense of being as effective as we once were against man coverage. 

 

Yeah I know what the tweet is trying to say but I don't buy it. We didn't just "re-shape" the personnel. We failed to invest enough meaningful resources into the personnel, and the resources we did invest ended up being an overpayment pretty much across the board.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

You are reaching badly on this one but I think you know that 😂. The question was are you concerned your offense hasn’t scored more points in the preseason and the answer was well yea we want more points obviously and I think if we stop making dumba** self inflicted mistakes we’ll score my points 

Are you seriously saying he is only implying the preseason and that he wouldn’t be concerned about scoring points in the regular season?  

[balln]

29 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know. Nobody was ever saying "the Bills offense needs to be built EXCLUSIVELY to beat cover 2 shell." The thought was that we needed some kind of answers built in to win against that coverage, while still retaining the ability to beat any other coverage.

 

There has been a pervasive thought here and elsewhere in the Bills social media sphere that teams would just always let us get away with cheap yards over and over again, and as long as Allen remains patient we'll be unstoppable. It turns out well-coached defenses aren't going to just lay down and die for us. They're going to force the issue until we prove we can beat it. For two weeks now our personnel and our scheme haven't proven they can beat it. So the trend will continue.

If argue that Allen is STILL not taking the underneath relatively more open options.

[Comebackkid]

57 minutes ago, Logic said:

While I'm here and we're on the topic of receivers separating against man coverage...

As someone who was against drafting Keon Coleman, I would be remiss not to post the following.

Not too shabby, rook. #FeedKeon

 

 

With this you still have to look at the routes,  other wr on team and game dynamics between teams

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Are you seriously saying he is only implying the preseason and that he wouldn’t be concerned about scoring points in the regular season?  

No lol the CONCERN is what he’s talking about to which the answer was yes and no…it has nothing to do with preseason specifically.  His level of concern isn’t high because self inflicted mistakes were keeping points off the board and he thinks they’ll clean it up  
 

the question was not DO YOU WANT TO SCORE MORE POINTS to which he answered yes and no like you are painting it 😂. Really thought you were being at least somewhat sarcastic but I guess not haha 
 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Generic_Bills_Fan

[NewEra]

41 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

that's a very generous interpretation of the offense

 

i would say they constructed the it to minimize turnovers, maximize TOP, and grind games out. there's not much in our personnel or scheme, past or present, that leads me to believe this is some factory built cover2 beating machine

I certainly had a good idea that they were developing an offense to combat the cover 2 shell. You didn’t?  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

it’s not this hasn’t been discussed here

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

No lol the CONCERN is what he’s talking about to which the answer was yes and no…it has nothing to do with preseason specifically.  His level of concern isn’t high because self inflicted mistakes were keeping points off the board and he thinks they’ll clean it up  
 

the question was not DO YOU WANT TO SCORE MORE POINTS to which he answered yes and no like you are painting it 😂. 
 

 

 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/listen-mcdermott-its-about-points-not-yards-against-miami