Neuroscientist wants the NFL to investigate Josh Allen’s apparent head injury

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I know.  I'm saying that if he experiences symptoms after he is checked-out by them, it's up to him to report it.  If he doesn't, that's on him.  But apparently he was and still is fine.

 

so, when a patient, who feels it would be in his best interest (or that of his team), reports no symptoms, he is truly symptom free?  

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

so, when a patient, who feels it would be in his best interest (or that of his team), reports no symptoms, he is truly symptom free?  

 

Not necessarily.  And that's on them.  If objective symptoms are absent, what are you going to do?  Hold them out on a hunch?  How long do you think the Bills should have kept Josh out?  The remainder of that game?  The Jets game?

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Not necessarily.  And that's on them.  If objective symptoms are absent, what are you going to do?  Hold them out on a hunch?  How long do you think the Bills should have kept Josh out?  The remainder of that game?  The Jets game?

 

what are the objective signs a day or more after the hit?

 

I don't know how long or if they should have held him out.  that was not my point at all.  I simply said his very brief exam seemed unlikely---and that had the exact same hit and response had been on Tua and he was simply handed smelling salts and bolted the tent in 4 minutes or less, this place would be howling bout how bad the Phins were handling him.

 

that's all

[FireChans]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I know.  I'm saying that if he experiences symptoms after he is checked-out by them, it's up to him to report it.  If he doesn't, that's on him.  But apparently he was and still is fine.

I mean, if he wants to play with his brain leaking out his ears, that’s also “on him.”

 

The point of the concussion protocol is not to let these guys have perfect autonomy. You know this.

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

what are the objective signs a day or more after the hit?

 

I don't know how long or if they should have held him out.  that was not my point at all.  I simply said his very brief exam seemed unlikely---and that had the exact same hit and response had been on Tua and he was simply handed smelling salts and bolted the tent in 4 minutes or less, this place would be howling bout how bad the Phins were handling him.

 

that's all

 

Ataxia, lethargy, confusion, photophobia, nausea, mood change.  He'd be at practice and there would be signs others could see.  There's only so much he can hide.

 

And if he hides it, again, that's on him.  The same goes for Tua.  If he doesn't report that he's not doing/feeling well, that's not on the team. And now that he's secured the bag and suffered another major concussion, I bet his attitude towards concussions will change, if not his style of play.

 

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I mean, if he wants to play with his brain leaking out his ears, that’s also “on him.”

 

The point of the concussion protocol is not to let these guys have perfect autonomy. You know this.

 

Brains leaking out of his ears is an objective sign that something is wrong.  That's already been covered and you should know that.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Ataxia, lethargy, confusion, photophobia, nausea, mood change.  He'd be at practice and there would be signs others could see.  There's only so much he can hide.

 

And if he hides it, again, that's on him.  The same goes for Tua.  If he doesn't report that he's not doing/feeling well, that's not on the team. And now that he's secured the bag and suffered another major concussion, I bet his attitude towards concussions will change, if not his style of play.

 

 

Brains leaking out of his ears is an objective sign that something is wrong.  That's already been covered and you should know that.

Theirs is zero point zero part of the concussion protocol that cares about “what’s Josh Allen’s decision.”

 

This conflation is amusing. We had people wistfully talking about how McDermott, a man of integrity, probably wanted to stop the game to protect Tua. And McDaniels, his sleazy HC, put him out there “knowing” he had a concussion despite his medical evaluation. 
 

Now it’s spread to, “well it’s Josh Allen’s own fault if he lies or covers up injury” lol.

 

We can’t admit that the concussion protocol may have failed its only directive. I mean, sure it has before but that was THEN. This is NOW.

 

We can’t admit that maybe Josh’s phantom chankle injury (that disappeared entirely) sounds a little fishy.

 

No no no. Josh didn’t have a concussion because the protocol said he didn’t. And if he did, it’s HIS fault.

 

Extremely amusing. I imagine the neurologists at the NFL would love to see your resume. 

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Theirs is zero point zero part of the concussion protocol that cares about “what’s Josh Allen’s decision.”

 

This conflation is amusing. We had people wistfully talking about how McDermott, a man of integrity, probably wanted to stop the game to protect Tua. And McDaniels, his sleazy HC, put him out there “knowing” he had a concussion despite his medical evaluation. 
 

Now it’s spread to, “well it’s Josh Allen’s own fault if he lies or covers up injury” lol.

 

We can’t admit that the concussion protocol may have failed its only directive. I mean, sure it has before but that was THEN. This is NOW.

 

We can’t admit that maybe Josh’s phantom chankle injury (that disappeared entirely) sounds a little fishy.

 

No no no. Josh didn’t have a concussion because the protocol said he didn’t. And if he did, it’s HIS fault.

 

Extremely amusing. I imagine the neurologists at the NFL would love to see your resume. 

posters here doing more posturing than Tua on his second concussion….

[Doc]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Theirs is zero point zero part of the concussion protocol that cares about “what’s Josh Allen’s decision.”

 

This conflation is amusing. We had people wistfully talking about how McDermott, a man of integrity, probably wanted to stop the game to protect Tua. And McDaniels, his sleazy HC, put him out there “knowing” he had a concussion despite his medical evaluation. 
 

Now it’s spread to, “well it’s Josh Allen’s own fault if he lies or covers up injury” lol.

 

We can’t admit that the concussion protocol may have failed its only directive. I mean, sure it has before but that was THEN. This is NOW.

 

We can’t admit that maybe Josh’s phantom chankle injury (that disappeared entirely) sounds a little fishy.

 

No no no. Josh didn’t have a concussion because the protocol said he didn’t. And if he did, it’s HIS fault.

 

Extremely amusing. I imagine the neurologists at the NFL would love to see your resume. 

 

The NFLPA, who would have no reason to lie, agreed that "steps required by the concussion protocol were followed" and "there was no loss of consciousness."  So if he passed the objective portion of the exam and didn't lose consciousness, why do you still believe he was concussed?  Because your degree allowed you to diagnose him from the footage from the game?  LOL!  Let's see your resume.

 

In order to continue to insist that he was concussed, you must believe a) the NFLPA is lying and/or b) that Josh had subjective symptoms that he decided to hide and which could have gotten him placed in the concussion protocol. 

 

And great, one person wistfully talked about McD "probably" wanting to stop the game to protect Tua.  It's an opinion (and you know...).  There was no "spread."  But don't you think that a "man of integrity" would have pulled Josh from the game if he truly had a concussion?  Meanwhile guys like Taylor Rapp are ruled out of games?

 

Look, the time for this discussion was when Josh was reinserted back in the Houston game.  Once they trotted him out for the postgame presser, it was essentially over.  When the NFL and NFLPA issued their joint statement, it was dead.  And after Josh played against the Jets and beat them, it's beating a dead horse.

[FireChans]

28 minutes ago, Doc said:

The NFLPA, who would have no reason to lie, agreed that "steps required by the concussion protocol were followed" and "there was no loss of consciousness."

See Doc, this is where you lose.

On 10/13/2024 at 2:48 PM, FireChans said:

As Tagovailoa recovered from the concussion suffered against Cincinnati, the NFL and NFL Players Association said in a joint statement that steps should have prevented him from reentering against the Bills. While "the step-by-step process outlined in the concussion protocol was followed," the statement said, "the outcome in this case was not what was intended."

So they said the same thing they said about Tua, when the Dolphins were raked over the coals for covering up his concussion lol.

 

Where did they say there was no loss of consciousness?

 

Here's the statement:

 

So, to review.  The imperfect concussion policy was followed to the letter for Tua. Why would the NFLPA lie, right?  But of course they missed an obvious concussion (obvious to Bills fans).

 

Then, Josh smacks his dome on the floor. The new, previously imperfect, now revised, concussion policy that I assume you are arguing is 100% infallible and couldn't ever miss a concussion was followed to the letter. Josh gets offered some smelling salts, says he has phantom chankle injuries, and your argument is "its on him."

 

lol

 

lmao even

 

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

See Doc, this is where you lose.

So they said the same thing they said about Tua, when the Dolphins were raked over the coals for covering up his concussion lol.

 

Where did they say there was no loss of consciousness?

 

Here's the statement:

 

So, to review.  The imperfect concussion policy was followed to the letter for Tua. Why would the NFLPA lie, right?  But of course they missed an obvious concussion (obvious to Bills fans).

 

Then, Josh smacks his dome on the floor. The new, previously imperfect, now revised, concussion policy that I assume you are arguing is 100% infallible and couldn't ever miss a concussion was followed to the letter. Josh gets offered some smelling salts, says he has phantom chankle injuries, and your argument is "its on him."

 

lol

 

lmao even

 

"The NFL and NFL Players Association said in a joint statement that steps should have prevented (Tua) from reentering against the Bills."  And do a search to see that they agreed that there was no loss of consciousness.

 

Sit this one out.

Edited October 19 by Doc

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

"The NFL and NFL Players Association said in a joint statement that steps should have prevented (Tua) from reentering against the Bills." 

 

Sit this one out.

 

41 minutes ago, Doc said:

The NFLPA, who would have no reason to lie, agreed that "steps required by the concussion protocol were followed"

lmao.

 

Now we are moving the goalposts. First, saying that the steps required by the concussion protocol were followed PROVED Josh couldn't have had a concussion. But of course, when they say that about Tua, it doesn't count.

 

Also just FYI, the NFLPA didn't release that statement about Tua until he got knocked out again the week after.

 

Also:

43 minutes ago, Doc said:

"there was no loss of consciousness."

(citation needed)

 

Come on now. You're smart. They followed the protocol before and jeopardized Tua's career and brain health doing so because the protocol isn't perfect. To argue it's not possible and that the NFL's concussion protocol is infallible when we have evidence of it previously being VERY fallible is just being obtuse.

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

We can’t admit that maybe Josh’s phantom chankle injury (that disappeared entirely) sounds a little fishy.

 

We may want to admit that the people who are professionals and actually examined Allen may have been right or, at least, have the best answer out of any of us. That's just me though. I haven't done my own research like some of ya'll.

Edited October 19 by Malazan

[FireChans]

Just now, Malazan said:

 

We may want to admit that the people who are professionals and actually examined Allen may have been right. That's just me though. I haven't done my own research like some of ya'll.

I can certainly admit they may have been right. I'll do it right now.

 

It's possible that Josh wasn't concussed, and somehow simultaneously injured his chest and ankle on the play that saw his head bounce on the turf and lie motionless for a handful of beats. It's possible that Josh was assessed for a concussion, was deemed to not qualify for staying out of the game, and wasn't concussed at all.

 

Now, can we admit that the NFL's own neurotrauma team could've be wrong?  Is that a bridge too far? I know the NFL has an impeccable record when it comes to managing head injuries, but does that mean they are above any level of doubt?

[Malazan]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Now, can we admit that the NFL's own neurotrauma team could've be wrong?  Is that a bridge too far? I know the NFL has an impeccable record when it comes to managing head injuries, but does that mean they are above any level of doubt?

 

So there's a point of ignorance that I think affects your narrative. The neurologist is hired by both the NFL and NFLPA jointly. The NFLPA has also supported the diagnosis.

 

Also, let's just dump your attempt at a strawman. No one has argued that there is zero doubt. It has been all along that concussions are difficult to diagnose so maybe let's not leave that up to internet dudes doing their own research and making a diagnosis off a video.

 

Your idea that there is a vast conspiracy that involves Josh Allen, the NFL, the NFLPA, an independent Neurologist hired by both the NFL and NFLPA, the team doctors, and the Bills coaching staff is ridiculous. Especially when you can't answer questions about why the NFLPA would try to cover this all up when they frequently hammer the NFL on the issue of concussions and, like in the case of Tua, fired the independent neurologist .

 

He was evaluated by some of the best experts in the world on concussions using protocols developed by some of the best experts on concussions. He didn't exhibit signs of a concussion. So I'm not sure why people feel the need to gravitate toward conspiracy theories.

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

So there's a point of ignorance that I think affects your narrative. The neurologist is hired by both the NFL and NFLPA jointly. The NFLPA has also supported the diagnosis.

 

Also, let's just dump your attempt at a strawman. No one has argued that there is zero doubt. It has been all along that concussions are difficult to diagnose so maybe let's not leave that up to internet dudes doing their own research and making a diagnosis off a video.

 

Your idea that there is a vast conspiracy that involves Josh Allen, the NFL, the NFLPA, an independent Neurologist hired by both the NFL and NFLPA, the team doctors, and the Bills coaching staff is ridiculous. Especially when you can't answer questions about why the NFLPA would try to cover this all up when they frequently hammer the NFL on the issue of concussions and, like in the case of Tua, fired the independent neurologist .

 

He was evaluated by some of the best experts in the world on concussions using protocols developed by some of the best experts on concussions. He didn't exhibit signs of a concussion. So I'm not sure why people feel the need to gravitate toward conspiracy theories.

What is the point of ignorance?

 

Was the NFLPA in on the conspiracy when they let Tua back in the game vs the Bills and play the Bengals the next week?  Why or why not?

 

Please read this article, snippets bolded for emphasis:

 

During the play in question, the player was tackled and fell on his back and then hit his head on the ground. The player grabbed his helmet, shook his head several times, and after he took several steps, he stumbled and fell.

 

The Club medical team and the UNC properly viewed the video of the play in question as required by the protocol and engaged in a locker room examination of Mr. Tagovailoa before the player was cleared to return to play. The Team physician cleared Mr. Tagovailoa, following consultation with the UNC. The steps set forth in the Concussion Checklist were, therefore, conducted.

 

Mr. Tagovailoa suffered and reported back and ankle injuries earlier in the game. Mr. Tagovailoa told the medical staff involved that he aggravated his back injury on the play in question and that his back injury caused him to stumble.

 

Mr. Tagovailoa did not report or exhibit any signs or symptoms of concussion during his locker room exam, during the remainder of the game, or throughout the following week.

 

While the investigation determined that the team medical staff and unaffiliated medical professionals followed the steps of the Protocol as written, the NFL and NFLPA agree that the outcome in this case is not what was intended when the Protocols were drafted.

 

https://nflpa.com/press/joint-nfl-nflpa-statement-on-review-of-tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol

Edited October 19 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

Using the NFLPA to lend credence to a head injury discussion is lol

[Malazan]

31 minutes ago, FireChans said:

What is the point of ignorance?

 

Was the NFLPA in on the conspiracy when they let Tua back in the game vs the Bills and play the Bengals the next week?  Why or why not?

 

Please read this article, snippets bolded for emphasis:

 

During the play in question, the player was tackled and fell on his back and then hit his head on the ground. The player grabbed his helmet, shook his head several times, and after he took several steps, he stumbled and fell.

 

The Club medical team and the UNC properly viewed the video of the play in question as required by the protocol and engaged in a locker room examination of Mr. Tagovailoa before the player was cleared to return to play. The Team physician cleared Mr. Tagovailoa, following consultation with the UNC. The steps set forth in the Concussion Checklist were, therefore, conducted.

 

Mr. Tagovailoa suffered and reported back and ankle injuries earlier in the game. Mr. Tagovailoa told the medical staff involved that he aggravated his back injury on the play in question and that his back injury caused him to stumble.

 

Mr. Tagovailoa did not report or exhibit any signs or symptoms of concussion during his locker room exam, during the remainder of the game, or throughout the following week.

 

While the investigation determined that the team medical staff and unaffiliated medical professionals followed the steps of the Protocol as written, the NFL and NFLPA agree that the outcome in this case is not what was intended when the Protocols were drafted.

 

https://nflpa.com/press/joint-nfl-nflpa-statement-on-review-of-tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol

 

The NFLPA then fired the neurologist who evaluated Tua after their investigation(https://sports.yahoo.com/nflpa-reportedly-fires-independent-neurologist-who-was-at-week-3-game-where-tua-tagovailoa-returned-after-head-injury-180954740.html?guccounter=1) found the doctor committed errors.

 

Can you point me to where they fired the neurologist who evaluated Allen?

[Doc]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

lmao.

 

Now we are moving the goalposts. First, saying that the steps required by the concussion protocol were followed PROVED Josh couldn't have had a concussion. But of course, when they say that about Tua, it doesn't count.

 

Also just FYI, the NFLPA didn't release that statement about Tua until he got knocked out again the week after.

 

Also:

(citation needed)

 

Come on now. You're smart. They followed the protocol before and jeopardized Tua's career and brain health doing so because the protocol isn't perfect. To argue it's not possible and that the NFL's concussion protocol is infallible when we have evidence of it previously being VERY fallible is just being obtuse.

 

The concussion protocol was changed after what happened with Tua 2 years ago.  You know that, right?  They added ataxia as an objective criterion. 

 

Merely hitting one's head isn't a criterion for being placed in the protocol.  Neither is being diagnosed by a neuroscientist based solely on incomplete videos.  Loss of consciousness is a criterion and the NFL and NFLPA said that didn't occur:

 

(citation provided):

 

Quote

The NFL and NFLPA reviewed video of the play and agreed that Allen did not lose consciousness

 

And again, what reason would the NFLPA have to lie?  Fear of a lawsuit?  It's been over 2 years since Tua postured against the Bengals and there is no lawsuit forthcoming.

 

And yeah, I'm smart enough to know that if you're using an example of a guy who got a concussion and then got another one in his next game, and then talk about a guy who you suspect got a concussion but didn't get one in his next game, I'd say it's more proof he didn't get a concussion the first time.  Unless everyone who evaluated Josh just got lucky.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

 

The NFLPA then fired the neurologist who evaluated Tua after their investigation(https://sports.yahoo.com/nflpa-reportedly-fires-independent-neurologist-who-was-at-week-3-game-where-tua-tagovailoa-returned-after-head-injury-180954740.html?guccounter=1) found the doctor committed errors.

 

Can you point me to where they fired the neurologist who evaluated Allen?

They fired him after the second concussion, not the first lol