What’s up with the bills usage of Kincaid?

[FireChans]

On 10/1/2024 at 7:29 AM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

I mean how hard can it be? Any low level internet could go watch film of Kelce, Gronk, Kittle,  and a host of other great TEs and design 10-15 plays that exploit the defense.

 

This board was happy to see Diggs gone thinking this would open up opportunities for others.  Just the opposite so far. Maybe just maybe Diggs did draw extra attention late last year opening up opportunities for Shakir and Kincaid to make plays. 

Maybe Kincaid isn't as good as those dudes....

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Maybe Kincaid isn't as good as those dudes....

Beane traded up to get him and Laporta was still around in the second round...Hopefully he continues to develop

[White Linen]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whereas to me it almost always looks like a lack of top end talent beyond Josh. 

 

I completely disagree.  There's always a want for more but it's just not true comparatively.

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, boyst said:

not watched the visuals or all 22. too cheap but anytime i saw him against the ravens and earlier in the year when facing man coverage he didn't distinguish himself to get into a catching solution. also, i think it is fair that josh is not throwing the ball into these windows like he has before.

 

shakir is the only one he is putting the ball into certain windows with.

 

what struck me was that kincaid is running routes that are predictable and don't seem as original as they could be - maybe it's all my interpretation. 

 

right now we need a big bodied TE who can sit down in a flat like keith mckellar would - knox

we need a solid number 1 who can beat the defender with position and get the contested catch - a TO type who can fight for the ball and maybe coleman will get there

we need an underneath guy who can run inside our outside and take the hits and make the catch - beasley - and shakir maybe better than him

we need a man who can get open and shake coverage and play backyard ball - Stevie johnson.  it should be curtis samuel

we need a rb who can run a wheel route and break through or leak out to catch a big gain when josh scrambles - thurman but now james cook

 

if we get those three solutions above we can use dalton kincaid to split a seam, and be a big swiss army knife

 

it's early. caffiene kicking in.  but gosh i wish we would have pursued derrick henry. it'd have been huge to just punish the light boxes and 2 high safeties we face with josh.

No offense, but without watching the all-22, there’s no way to tell if Kincaid is getting separation.  Tv cam and QB decisions only tell a small part of the story imo. 
 

I was also in favor of Henry.  He’d add a different dimension that teams would have to respect

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No offense, but without watching the all-22, there’s no way to tell if Kincaid is getting separation.  Tv cam and QB decisions only tell a small part of the story imo. 
 

I was also in favor of Henry.  He’d add a different dimension that teams would have to respect

Let.me try to rephrase. He's not getting open and separating the distance he needs to catch. Defenses are sitting over the middle because Josh is not going deep, will run up the middle, or check the play to a James cook run who traditionallu doesn't break through the 2nd layer with carries. Outside of the tackles we can't move the ball. We don't throw outside the hashes, either. 

 

Kincaid is being sent all over the middle of the field without well enough designed plays to do anything more than treat him as a decoy. He's not able to separate from the men or man covering to make the contested catches or even give the window for Josh to throw to him. 

[Kmart128]

22 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Again, is this a case where we get him involved early, so then teams adjust and cover/double cover/triple cover, and take him away?

Could be but at i think it's not really that. I think it's more that the first couple drives are usually scripted. As an offense yoy kinda know what your gonna atleast plan to do. Afterwards it gets hard to script the next few drives.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No offense, but without watching the all-22, there’s no way to tell if Kincaid is getting separation.  Tv cam and QB decisions only tell a small part of the story imo. 
 

I was also in favor of Henry.  He’d add a different dimension that teams would have to respect

he's doing fine w the route running, it's his strength

 

i think he lacks some of the subtleties/nuance of the position that make the great TEs great. an example would be his drop on the first drive that killed us on third and short...runs a very crisp route but needs to realize he's not in a viable throwing lane and his route took him into their LB

 

 

right here he has all the information he needs and what  he needs to do to be a friendly target is sit down on top of the S in Ravens and wait for the ball for a first down

instead he drifts out of the passing lane toward #23, Allen has to wait until the next window becomes available, the timing is thrown off and Kikcaid drops it

 

 

he clearly has talent. he just doesnt have a great feel for the position yet that the great TEs have

 

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, boyst said:

Let.me try to rephrase. He's not getting open and separating the distance he needs to catch. Defenses are sitting over the middle because Josh is not going deep, will run up the middle, or check the play to a James cook run who traditionallu doesn't break through the 2nd layer with carries. Outside of the tackles we can't move the ball. We don't throw outside the hashes, either. 

 

Kincaid is being sent all over the middle of the field without well enough designed plays to do anything more than treat him as a decoy. He's not able to separate from the men or man covering to make the contested catches or even give the window for Josh to throw to him. 

Idk if the bolded is true from the tv cam.  He had a nice play vs Jax.  Unless you actually watch the all-22, I don’t see how you could come to the bolder conclusion.

 

I agree with everything else in your post, but I do think Keon is going to be a nice outside weapon and I believe that our RBs can make plays outside the tackles.  
 

Like everything, I think it starts and ends with Brady (and the OL).  What kind of confusion he’s able to create for opposing defenses + his ability to put his players in position to not be confused by opposing defenses.  Baltimore was able to dominate both sides of that battlefield. Brady won the first 3 weeks (minus the first half vs az)

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

he's doing fine w the route running, it's his strength

 

i think he lacks some of the subtleties/nuance of the position that make the great TEs great. an example would be his drop on the first drive that killed us on third and short...runs a very crisp route but needs to realize he's not in a viable throwing lane and his route took him into their LB

 

 

right here he has all the information he needs and what  he needs to do to be a friendly target is sit down on top of the S in Ravens and wait for the ball for a first down

instead he drifts out of the passing lane toward #23, Allen has to wait until the next window becomes available, the timing is thrown off and Kikcaid drops it

 

 

he clearly has talent. he just doesnt have a great feel for the position yet that the great TEs have

 

Thanks!  Contemplating buying the all-22 again but haven’t had any time with work this year. Grrrrr.

 

 

[boyst]

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Idk if the bolded is true from the tv cam.  He had a nice play vs Jax.  Unless you actually watch the all-22, I don’t see how you could come to the bolder conclusion.

 

I agree with everything else in your post, but I do think Keon is going to be a nice outside weapon and I believe that our RBs can make plays outside the tackles.  
 

Like everything, I think it starts and ends with Brady (and the OL).  What kind of confusion he’s able to create for opposing defenses + his ability to put his players in position to not be confused by opposing defenses.  Baltimore was able to dominate both sides of that battlefield. Brady won the first 3 weeks (minus the first half vs az)

Jacksonville played horribly on defense. Arizona played potent and their best. Baltimore just outmatched us.

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

he's doing fine w the route running, it's his strength

 

i think he lacks some of the subtleties/nuance of the position that make the great TEs great. an example would be his drop on the first drive that killed us on third and short...runs a very crisp route but needs to realize he's not in a viable throwing lane and his route took him into their LB

 

 

right here he has all the information he needs and what  he needs to do to be a friendly target is sit down on top of the S in Ravens and wait for the ball for a first down

instead he drifts out of the passing lane toward #23, Allen has to wait until the next window becomes available, the timing is thrown off and Kikcaid drops it

 

 

he clearly has talent. he just doesnt have a great feel for the position yet that the great TEs have

 

 

Totally agree. He needed to sit on that route. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

28 tight ends have more than 10 targets this year, he is just outside the top 10 in total targets with 18.  There's only like 20 TE's with even 100 yards receiving this season through 4 games.  The position is a gaping hole in fantasy because of the lack of production, and considering he's only played about 62% of the snaps this year - he's been an impact player, even without a major breakout game.  

[Drew21PA]

Sorry it’s my fault he’s my fantasy TE

 

in addition the world can thank me because Mahomes his my fantasy qb

 

ill take the L’s all day as long as Mahomes stays on this pace with 6tds and 6ints

 

 

[PoundingDog]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

Maybe Kincaid isn't as good as those dudes....

I'm getting around that conclusion ...

 

Kincaid is going to be 25 in 2 weeks, kind of older guy coming out of college. Those great ones breakout in their second season in NFL, like Kelce who Kincaid is often compared to, once they figure out what NFL is. How often do teams bracket Kelce and he still gets open in his heydays? When Diggs came to Buffalo, teams do the same and he still got open. Now teams do that to Kincaid and nothing happens even with the same QB throwing the ball.

Edited October 3 by PoundingDog

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, PoundingDog said:

I'm getting around that conclusion ...

 

Kincaid is going to be 25 in 2 weeks, kind of older guy coming out of college. Those great ones breakout in their second season in NFL, like Kelce who Kincaid is often compared to, once they figure out what NFL is. How often do teams bracket Kelce and he still gets open in his heydays? When Diggs came to Buffalo, teams do the same and he still got open. Now teams do that to Kincaid and nothing happens even with the same QB throwing the ball.

It’s been 4 games

[PoundingDog]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It’s been 4 games

Admit that I might be harsh. Hope he finds a way to take a step forward this season, much like he did last year where his 2nd half is clearly a step forward from his first half of the rookie season. 

[BigAl2526]

I understand that part of the problem has been the fact that opposing teams disrespect the potential of Buffalo's wide receivers to do damage on the outside.  That lack of respect for receivers on the perimeter leads to defensive coordinators shifting the weight of the defense to the middle of the field.  Either the Bills have to figure out how to make defenses respect the outside passing game, or they need to figure out how to get Kincaid (and Knox) open running some routes to the outside.

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

I understand that part of the problem has been the fact that opposing teams disrespect the potential of Buffalo's wide receivers to do damage on the outside.  That lack of respect for receivers on the perimeter leads to defensive coordinators shifting the weight of the defense to the middle of the field.  Either the Bills have to figure out how to make defenses respect the outside passing game, or they need to figure out how to get Kincaid (and Knox) open running some routes to the outside.

Agreed.  We are doing him a disservice by not having any true outside threats teams are worrying about.  
 

Would be nice if Keon could find some of what Nico Collins has developed in terms of using his strength at the top of routes to create separation and win.  
 

All 3 of those sideline passes vs the ravens impressed me.  The dropped sucked but he used the perfect amount of force to push off without getting the flag.  It’s an art and the many of the best WRs are great in that aspect.  
 

if he can continue to make plays downfield vs single coverage, it’ll open everything up.  

[without a drought]

It's limited