TNF- Gmen vs Cowpokes *Prime Video/NFLPlus 8:15 est

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

I didn't say "entire reason for Josh Allen", nor did I intend to imply that.  

However, I do disagree about "better than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 draft".  

 

Schoen is a Beane disciple.  He was there when Beane said "not gonna get the QB who will take us places picking 21st overall, and not gonna find partners on draft day to pick high enough" and systematically traded Cordy Glenn and pick 21 for the #12 pick, as well as trading other guys on the Bills roster who had shown they could play (Ronald Darby for a 3rd rounder etc) to accumulate ammunition for Draft Day.  

 

And in fact, in 2022, the Giants picked at #5 overall.  
 

Bottom line, IMHO (and you're welcome to disagree) Daboll had to have thought Jones was someone he could mold into a guy he could win with, or he would have told Schoen to get him his guy, and Schoen had the blueprint to figure it out.
 

 

Very likely

As I understand it, the Giants desperately tried to trade up in this year's draft to 3 but couldn't get the Patriots to budge.

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree it was a predictable error. And they hired him because they thought he was part of the Josh Allen story - which he was. But they didn't have to believe he "made" Josh Allen to hire him. That's nuts. They thought he could improve their football team and they likely after an era in which they been mis-aligned at GM and HC with multiple combinations wanted to replicate the Bills model where they brought in a due with a pre-existing familiarity and relationship. Remember Schoen was hired first. 

Thoughts on this? I personally think Florio is right, but I don't know what the cap situation was for them. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/giants-miss-saquon-barkley-badly

[Lost]

I thought Jones played decent enough last night.   Few noodle arm under throws but that's about it.   I thought the playcalling was more suspect.   Not much creativity there and they kept trying to run with Singletary even though it wasnt working all game long.   I mean Dallas was giving up underneath throws all night long and pass protection was actually holding up well.   Why waste those early downs for 1.7yds/carry.  

[Cash]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Numerous players have said that they hate TNF.  Micah Hyde said "I don't even start feeling good until Thursday".  Josh on Green Light said with Toradol, "you don't feel anything during the game, you don't feel anything Monday.... but Tuesday and Wednesday...."

 

Then there's the coaching prep aspect

 

If the NFLPA actually had teeth and balls, they would push to eliminate TNF games

 

Or insist that Thursday games come ONLY after a bye week or another Thursday game - so you could play TNF and Thanksgiving in back-to-back weeks but otherwise would need to be coming off a bye.  The owners wouldn't want to do it, but it's the right move whether they want it or not.  Not everything needs to be about increasing revenue IMO.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

As I understand it, the Giants desperately tried to trade up in this year's draft to 3 but couldn't get the Patriots to budge.

Thoughts on this? I personally think Florio is right, but I don't know what the cap situation was for them. https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/giants-miss-saquon-barkley-badly

 

Like... what are we doing here?  They made the playoffs one time in 6 years with Barkley, and now you have to pay him more? 

 

IMO the issue is that Daboll is not a good run game caller, and tends to get pass happy.  Look at the numbers when Jones was out last season, it's a bad rushing attack.  Now he's running less because he can't stay healthy, and the run game still sucks.  Not sure if its edge blocking by WRs and TEs, actual scheme, or weaknesses along the offensive line.  But any good rushing attacks Daboll ever coached were propped up significantly by QB runs.  

Edited September 27 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Cash said:

Or insist that Thursday games come ONLY after a bye week or another Thursday game - so you could play TNF and Thanksgiving in back-to-back weeks but otherwise would need to be coming off a bye.  The owners wouldn't want to do it, but it's the right move whether they want it or not.  Not everything needs to be about increasing revenue IMO.

 

Exactly.  This would be the perfect compromise.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Like... what are we doing here?  They made the playoffs one time in 6 years with Barkley, and now you have to pay him more? 

 

IMO the issue is that Daboll is not a good run game caller, and tends to get pass happy.  Look at the numbers when Jones was out last season, it's a bad rushing attack.  Now he's running less because he can't stay healthy, and the run game still sucks.  Not sure if its edge blocking by WRs and TEs, actual scheme, or weaknesses along the offensive line.  

The year before last (2022), the Giants were 4th in rushing yards, 4th in rushing TDs, and 5th in rushing yards per attempt. They had a ton of injuries at QB last season which really hampered the run game. The point is, Barkley isn't just a little better than what they have now at RB; he's a lot better. I don't think Singletary is a bad player by any means, but the talent differential jumps off the screen when you watch the two and Singletary's fumbling probably is the reason they're 1-3 as opposed to 2-2. Barkley has a very low fumble rate. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

The year before last (2022), the Giants were 4th in rushing yards, 4th in rushing TDs, and 5th in rushing yards per attempt. They had a ton of injuries at QB last season which really hampered the run game. The point is, Barkley isn't just a little better than what they have now at RB; he's a lot better. I don't think Singletary is a bad player by any means, but the talent differential jumps off the screen when you watch the two and Singletary's fumbling probably is the reason they're 1-3 as opposed to 2-2. Barkley has a very low fumble rate. 

 

Yes, and Daniel jones had 700 yards and a 5.9 YPC average.  Barkleys 4.4 YPC was 25th (20th among backs).  

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I didn't say "entire reason for Josh Allen", nor did I intend to imply that.  

However, I do disagree about "better than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 draft".  

 

Schoen is a Beane disciple.  He was there when Beane said "not gonna get the QB who will take us places picking 21st overall, and not gonna find partners on draft day to pick high enough" and systematically traded Cordy Glenn and pick 21 for the #12 pick, as well as trading other guys on the Bills roster who had shown they could play (Ronald Darby for a 3rd rounder etc) to accumulate ammunition for Draft Day.  

 

And in fact, in 2022, the Giants picked at #5 overall.  
 

Bottom line, IMHO (and you're welcome to disagree) Daboll had to have thought Jones was someone he could mold into a guy he could win with, or he would have told Schoen to get him his guy, and Schoen had the blueprint to figure it out.

 

Daniel Jones was DEFINITELY better than what they could have got in the top 5 even of the 2022 draft. That was the Pickett / Willis class and sure they coulda picked Mr Irrelevant he ended up being quite good, but otherwise that wasn't a class to find your QB in. I think their mistake was not following the Bills blueprint and taking the goodwill and capital they had built up from 2022 to risk going back to take a step forward. They felt they should try and roll with it. But I don't think that was because they thought Jones was the long term answer - and the proof of that was it was a 3 year extension not the 5 or 6 year extensions team signing franchise QBs give out. It was because they thought they could get the serviceable level they got in 2022 out of him and they weren't willing to risk it all on pitch or toss to try and get up for a Young or a Stroud (you'd have had to go from #25 to #2 and when Beane made his move from #21 to #7 but had lots of capital to do it with including a 2nd first round pick) and they didn't think Will Levis was better than Daniel Jones. In my opinion that is the the conclusion that the actual moves they have made lead you to. 

 

I still think the Jones extension was a mistake btw... because you could get Daniel Jones level play out of Sam Darnold or Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield or Jameis Winston or someone for a fraction of the cost. But I don't think it was ever because they believed that they could turn him into Josh Allen. Or even anything close to that. 

[VaMilBill]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Daboll's a near certainty to come back as OC if he is fired at the end of the year and Brady leaves for a HC job. 

 

Bills have been promoting from within. They could go that route again but I can't even tell you who our offensive coaches are behind Brady currently. Would any of them be ready for an OC job?

You do realize McD and Daboll don’t get along, right?

 

I would be absolutely shocked if Daboll ended up back here. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

You do realize McD and Daboll don’t get along, right?

 

I would be absolutely shocked if Daboll ended up back here. 

 

I don't think McD wants him back.  Allen could probably get his way, but I don't see it.  

 

Ben Johnson, Slowik, brady are probably the "hot 3" at the moment.  Vrabel, Carroll, and Belichick are out there.  Evero, Glenn, and Flores are available as defensive guys as well. 

 

I wouldn't say its a given Brady is gone, especially since everyone knows he has josh allen and have seen how dorsey, daboll, and even brady looked when they didn't have josh allen.  

 

Interested to see where openings crop up though.  If Taylor is let go in Cincy - that would be somewhere Brady wants to land for example.  

Edited September 27 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

18 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I don't think McD wants him back.  Allen could probably get his way, but I don't see it.  

 

Ben Johnson, Slowik, brady are probably the "hot 3" at the moment.  Vrabel, Carroll, and Belichick are out there.  Evero, Glenn, and Flores are available as defensive guys as well. 

 

I wouldn't say its a given Brady is gone, especially since everyone knows he has josh allen and have seen how dorsey, daboll, and even brady looked when they didn't have josh allen.  

 

Interested to see where openings crop up though.  If Taylor is let go in Cincy - that would be somewhere Brady wants to land for example.  

I'm looking forward to what he can do with the 14 games left and in to the playoffs. not where he's going to land if he does decide to leave.

 

 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[Fan in Chicago]

That was some gawdawful quarterbacking last night. Jones is really backup material and Dak continues to get unearned accolades

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[Sojourner]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

It's not the NFLPA's "buyer".  They are supposed to represent the players' best interests, not the league's

 

You shouldn't feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Daboll thought that he "made" Josh Allen and he could "make" Daniel Jones into a better, less mistake-prone clone.

Ok but in the world of soccer there is fixture congestion to an even greater extent, sometimes these players play 3 and even 4 matches. The PFA, AFE, IFA and other associations for players in respective leagues have made no headway in spacing out the fixtures. FIFA is pretty much the be all, end all. The NFL survey operates the same. 
 

News to me that the NFLPA are the ones who set up and decided who to sell the rights to TNF to. 

[mannc]

26 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

That was some gawdawful quarterbacking last night. Jones is really backup material and Dak continues to get unearned accolades

I'm amazed at how ineffective the Giants' pass rush is.  They have tons of top-of-the-draft talent out there but couldn't even get a whiff of Prescott.  Thibodeaux is a JAG, Burns was barely heard from last night, and Lawrence seems like he's hurt. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree it was a predictable error. And they hired him because they thought he was part of the Josh Allen story - which he was. But they didn't have to believe he "made" Josh Allen to hire him. That's nuts. They thought he could improve their football team and they likely after an era in which they been mis-aligned at GM and HC with multiple combinations wanted to replicate the Bills model where they brought in a due with a pre-existing familiarity and relationship. Remember Schoen was hired first. 

 

 

well, as you pointed out, they had years of misalignment with the staff and FO.  Hiring Schoen was the first mistake.  He had done nothing of note other than be in the building with Beane.  I have no doubt at all that they hired Daboll because they thought he could work some magic with him, as they felt he did with Allen (who was felt to be a raw prospect). 

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think he thought that Jones was a better option than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 Draft and on the back of a season where they not only made the playoffs but won a playoff game accepting a step back to go forward was not the right option. 

 

Kind of a shocking mistake. Daboll and Schoen came from a franchise that deliberately took a step back after making the playoffs with a bridge QB. They took all the good will they'd built up with that fanbase and threw it away.

[BillsfaninSB]

6 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

I could have sworn I saw the ref who threw the flag, when talking to the head ref about the penalty, pointed to the Cowboys side.  When the penalty was announced it was on the Giants, I completely expected the other ref to run over and correct it.   I was shocked it did not happen. 

[Albany,n.y.]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I disagree about thinking "better than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 draft".  

 

Schoen is a Beane disciple.  He was there when Beane said "not gonna get the QB who will take us places picking 21st overall, and not gonna find partners on draft day to pick high enough" and systematically traded Cordy Glenn and pick 21 for the #12 pick, as well as trading other guys on the Bills roster who had shown they could play (Ronald Darby for a 3rd rounder etc) to accumulate ammunition for Draft Day.  

 

And in fact, in 2022, the Giants picked at #5 overall.  So they could have gone for a QB then, too.
 

Here are the problems the Giants faced.  The 2022 draft was a QB desert. As it turned out, the only QB worth drafting was Mr. Irrelevant, Brock Purdy.  Only Purdy & Skylar Thompson, the last 2 QBs taken, are still with the teams that drafted them.  The only 1st rounder was Pickett, who busted in Pittsburgh & was given to Philly for virtually nothing. 

 

In 2023 the 1st rounders were gone by pick 4.  In 2024 the Giants only wanted one of the top 3, so when nobody was willing to trade with them, they were out of luck. 

 

When the Giants re-signed Jones, I thought they were nuts for not following the Beane model that the Bills did with Tyrod to Josh. Then I looked at the QB drafts since they got to NJ.  Unfortunately, they got stuck from the moment they got there because they really couldn't follow the Beane model since their 1st year was a bad QB draft class and later all the teams at the top wanted QBs & were unwilling to trade their picks.