TNF- Gmen vs Cowpokes *Prime Video/NFLPlus 8:15 est

[BuffaloBillyG]

Dallas can't stop the run...so Daboll of course dials up 40 pass plays. 

 

Such a Daboll move.

[GunnerBill]

Friday morning reflections!!!

 

1. Flagfest! Seriously makes a game borderline unwatchable and while some of it is just sloppy football that needs calling out I thought that crew was very ticky tacky. A couple of the illegal contact calls on defense and holding calls on offense are real technical fouls I think you need to let go for the sake of having a watchable game. 

 

2. I'm really not sure where the Cowboys think their roster is at. They have the worst running back situation in the NFL, which negates what should be a strength - the run blocking of their offensive line and forces them to throw with only really CeeDee as a viable option to throw to. I've seen criticism here and elsewhere of Dak, and sure, we all know Dak is overpaid, but I don't think this is a Quarterback problem it's a roster problem. Their offensive roster build is a mess. 

 

3. On defense they also are underperforming their talent right now. The reason for that is they made a pretty significant schematic change going from Dan Quinn to Mike Zimmer. Quinn is about smaller, faster guys, penetrative defensive linemen and long corners who play with good instincts in largely zone coverage (think not to dissimilar to what McDermott runs in Buffalo). Mike Zimmer, while still a 4-3 base guy, likes big bodies on the defensive line, aggressive linebackers who attack the line of scrimmage and physical DBs that can play man coverage. 

 

4. Watching the Giants offense is like watching too many drought Bills teams. The FG they kick to make it 15-12 from the Dallas 3 at the start of the 3rd is a FG decision I feel like I saw the Bills have to make so many times in that era. "We might never get here again so 4th and 3 we should go" as against "if we go for it and don't convert, this becomes a two score game and we are done." I thought they should have gone for it, I understand kicking it. I am delighted not to live in that world anymore. 

 

5. Malik Nabers is legit. There were people I spoke to in the draft community who had him as WR1 over Harrison. I didn't I had Harrison #1 and Nabers #2 but I had him as an elite prospect and a gap after the two of them to Odunze. To be playing this well on an offense where he is all they have is a testament to his abilities. If the Giants can find a way to get him a Quarterback next season he will be unplayable. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[skibum]

Thanks to that game, I got the best night of sleep I've had all week. It was nice to wake up in a world where the Giants and Cowboys both suck out loud. 

[Livinginthepast]

I feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Its even worse an option than some of drought era QBs. 5FGs because their offense could never close the deal and the Cowboys get off the hook again.

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Sojourner said:

they never will. it gives them a buyer for exclusive prime time. wouldn’t surprise me if one day in the distant future it’s on a friday too. would say a saturday but the ratings would go down the drain due to CFB. 

 

It's not the NFLPA's "buyer".  They are supposed to represent the players' best interests, not the league's

2 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

I feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Its even worse an option than some of drought era QBs. 5FGs because their offense could never close the deal and the Cowboys get off the hook again.

 

You shouldn't feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Daboll thought that he "made" Josh Allen and he could "make" Daniel Jones into a better, less mistake-prone clone.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

I feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Its even worse an option than some of drought era QBs. 5FGs because their offense could never close the deal and the Cowboys get off the hook again.

I mean him and schoen chose to stick with jones….definitely sealed his fate with that one

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

It's not the NFLPA's "buyer".  They are supposed to represent the players' best interests, not the league's

 

You shouldn't feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Daboll thought that he "made" Josh Allen and he could "make" Daniel Jones into a better, less mistake-prone clone.

This whole narrative that Josh was horrendous his rookie year and Daboll made him is too funny to me.  That 2018 bills roster was awful and probably pretty similar to last years giants team or worse but josh still had that team hovering around .500 in games he started.  He was that Charles clay drop away from having a winning record his rookie year 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You shouldn't feel sorry for Daboll with Jones.  Daboll thought that he "made" Josh Allen and he could "make" Daniel Jones into a better, less mistake-prone clone.

 

I don't think he thought that for a minute. I think he thought that Jones was a better option than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 Draft and on the back of a season where they not only made the playoffs but won a playoff game accepting a step back to go forward was not the right option. 

 

That judgment was wrong. And it likely will cost Schoen and Daboll their jobs unless the Giants can win at least 7 games. But that was the judgment. Brian Daboll never thought he was the entire reason for Josh Allen or that he could make Daniel Jones better than Allen. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

I’d pass on Daboll. I don’t think he was so great as an OC here. He was solid, but not the type of OC we need 

 

Daboll's a near certainty to come back as OC if he is fired at the end of the year and Brady leaves for a HC job. 

 

Bills have been promoting from within. They could go that route again but I can't even tell you who our offensive coaches are behind Brady currently. Would any of them be ready for an OC job?

[thenorthremembers]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Daboll's a near certainty to come back as OC if he is fired at the end of the year and Brady leaves for a HC job. 

 

Bills have been promoting from within. They could go that route again but I can't even tell you who our offensive coaches are behind Brady currently. Would any of them be ready for an OC job?

Given the way things went between he and McDermott his last year here and the ice cold hand shake last year, I dont think you see Daboll back here. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Daboll's a near certainty to come back as OC if he is fired at the end of the year and Brady leaves for a HC job. 

 

Bills have been promoting from within. They could go that route again but I can't even tell you who our offensive coaches are behind Brady currently. Would any of them be ready for an OC job?

Nothing is certain in life. But I am as close to certain as can be that Daboll will not be back here. That bridge has apparently been burned.

[RunTheBall]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Daboll's a near certainty to come back as OC if he is fired at the end of the year and Brady leaves for a HC job. 

 

Bills have been promoting from within. They could go that route again but I can't even tell you who our offensive coaches are behind Brady currently. Would any of them be ready for an OC job?

You are joking right? There is zero chance Dabol comes back as OC. He won’t run the offense McD wants, which is a much more balanced attack.

 

Dallas is horrendous at stopping the run and what did Daboll scheme up? Daniel “Mac” Jones tossing up 40 noodle armed passes.

 

Strong pass on Daboll.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Nothing is certain in life. But I am as close to certain as can be that Daboll will not be back here. That bridge has apparently been burned.

 

Maybe you guys are right. I don't recall bad blood when he left but do remember a story leaking after. Didn't he leave with the Bills coming off one of the greatest offensive postseason performances of all time? And multiple no punt games down the stretch of the 2021 regular season and post season?

 

I wouldn't look much into a cold handshake of the Giants game last year. That was a competitive game that the Giants loss in the final seconds. 

 

If not Daboll, then who? Probably someone outside the organization I would assume. 

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think he thought that for a minute. I think he thought that Jones was a better option than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 Draft and on the back of a season where they not only made the playoffs but won a playoff game accepting a step back to go forward was not the right option. 

 

That judgment was wrong. And it likely will cost Schoen and Daboll their jobs unless the Giants can win at least 7 games. But that was the judgment. Brian Daboll never thought he was the entire reason for Josh Allen or that he could make Daniel Jones better than Allen. 

 

This was predictable error on their part.  Everyone could see how limited Jones was--even in their "playoff year", where they went 3-4-1 after the bye. 15 passing TDs, 3200 yards (a good season, for him).  They were bereft of talent on Offense.  Sticking with Jones could only result in the prolonged death that team is dying.

 

If the owners of the Giants didn't think Daboll "made" Josh Allen, do they hire him in the first place?  They certainly would not have kept Jones unless they believed Daboll could "make" him too.

[stuvian]

Daboll is a walking Ozempic ad

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Maybe you guys are right. I don't recall bad blood when he left but do remember a story leaking after. Didn't he leave with the Bills coming off one of the greatest offensive postseason performances of all time? And multiple no punt games down the stretch of the 2021 regular season and post season?

 

I wouldn't look much into a cold handshake of the Giants game last year. That was a competitive game that the Giants loss in the final seconds. 

 

If not Daboll, then who? Probably someone outside the organization I would assume. 

why worry about where brady goes 3 games in to the season? how about wait until the season is over for this kind of take? and who knows, he may stay if they don't get the lombardi? and even if they did win it all, who's to say he doesn't stay for another try at it?

 

enjoy brady while he is here, talking about where he goes and who's going to replace him 3 games in to the season seems premature.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This was predictable error on their part.  Everyone could see how limited Jones was--even in their "playoff year", where they went 3-4-1 after the bye. 15 passing TDs, 3200 yards (a good season, for him).  They were bereft of talent on Offense.  Sticking with Jones could only result in the prolonged death that team is dying.

 

If the owners of the Giants didn't think Daboll "made" Josh Allen, do they hire him in the first place?  They certainly would not have kept Jones unless they believed Daboll could "make" him too.

 

I agree it was a predictable error. And they hired him because they thought he was part of the Josh Allen story - which he was. But they didn't have to believe he "made" Josh Allen to hire him. That's nuts. They thought he could improve their football team and they likely after an era in which they been mis-aligned at GM and HC with multiple combinations wanted to replicate the Bills model where they brought in a due with a pre-existing familiarity and relationship. Remember Schoen was hired first. 

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Friday morning reflections!!!

 

1. Flagfest! Seriously makes a game borderline unwatchable and while some of it is just sloppy football that needs calling out I thought that crew was very ticky tacky. A couple of the illegal contact calls on defense and holding calls on offense are real technical fouls I think you need to let go for the sake of having a watchable game. 

 

2. I'm really not sure where the Cowboys think their roster is at. They have the worst running back situation in the NFL, which negates what should be a strength - the run blocking of their offensive line and forces them to throw with only really CeeDee as a viable option to throw to. I've seen criticism here and elsewhere of Dak, and sure, we all know Dak is overpaid, but I don't think this is a Quarterback problem it's a roster problem. Their offensive roster build is a mess. 

 

3. On defense they also are underperforming their talent right now. The reason for that is they made a pretty significant schematic change going from Dan Quinn to Mike Zimmer. Quinn is about smaller, faster guys, penetrative defensive linemen and long corners who play with good instincts in largely zone coverage (think not to dissimilar to what McDermott runs in Buffalo). Mike Zimmer, while still a 4-3 base guy, likes big bodies on the defensive line, aggressive linebackers who attack the line of scrimmage and physical DBs that can play man coverage. 

 

4. Watching the Giants offense is like watching too many drought Bills teams. The FG they kick to make it 15-12 from the Dallas 3 at the start of the 3rd is a FG decision I feel like I saw the Bills have to make so many times in that era. "We might never get here again so 4th and 3 we should go" as against "if we go for it and don't convert, this becomes a two score game and we are done." I thought they should have gone for it, I understand kicking it. I am delighted not to live in that world anymore. 

 

5. Malik Nabers is legit. There were people I spoke to in the draft community who had him as WR1 over Harrison. I didn't I had Harrison #1 and Nabers #2 but I had him as an elite prospect and a gap after the two of them to Odunze. To be playing this well on an offense where he is all they have is a testament to his abilities. If the Giants can find a way to get him a Quarterback next season he will be unplayable. 

Re point 4, don't forget the Commanders game from 2 weeks ago, which may have shaped their thinking. They lost points by going for it in Commanders territory instead of kicking (which they had to do because they had no kicker). It cost them the game. Point is, there may have been a recency effect on that decision process last night.

 

It's also kinda funny that they kicked 5 FGs and lost and lost a game two weeks ago where they scored three TDs and the opponent had 7 FGs and no TDs (first time that's happened in NFL history). If only they had 7 instead of 5 FGs!

Edited 4 hours ago by dave mcbride

[BuffaloBillyG]

20 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Maybe you guys are right. I don't recall bad blood when he left but do remember a story leaking after. Didn't he leave with the Bills coming off one of the greatest offensive postseason performances of all time? And multiple no punt games down the stretch of the 2021 regular season and post season?

 

I wouldn't look much into a cold handshake of the Giants game last year. That was a competitive game that the Giants loss in the final seconds. 

 

If not Daboll, then who? Probably someone outside the organization I would assume. 

It's more than the cold handshake. There's also the report from the Brian Flores lawsuit that Daboll was willing to leave even if it was a lateral transfer just to get away from McDermott. And seeing how things melted down with Wink Martendale in Jersey...let's just say it's not had to buy that wherever Daboll goes, tension follows. 

 

As far as the who else...I am not sure who would be available next season, but on staff right now are a few guys I could see getting interviewed for the spot. DJ Mangas, Ronald Curry and Rob Boras come to mind. Heck, Kromer has had OC duties before as well. So I would guess that's where the search would start.

[Beck Water]

57 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think he thought that for a minute. I think he thought that Jones was a better option than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 Draft and on the back of a season where they not only made the playoffs but won a playoff game accepting a step back to go forward was not the right option. 

 

That judgment was wrong. And it likely will cost Schoen and Daboll their jobs unless the Giants can win at least 7 games. But that was the judgment. Brian Daboll never thought he was the entire reason for Josh Allen or that he could make Daniel Jones better than Allen. 

 

I didn't say "entire reason for Josh Allen", nor did I intend to imply that.  That's Man o' Straw here.   Obviously Josh Allen started as an off-the-charts physical talent with off-the-charts competitiveness, and Daboll didn't "make" that.  But Josh Allen was also a wild man mentally and Daboll takes (and probably deserves some) credit for teaching him to "beat them with your mind" and inspiring him to improve as a passer. 

 

Jones started his career as a 62%, 232 ypg passer who threw 24 TD and 12 INT his rookie season, then took a step back under Joe Judge and Jason Garrett.  I don't think it's a big stretch to think Daboll looked at Jones and said "I can coach him back to that, then I'm starting out with a more accurate Josh who makes fewer mistakes and throws fewer picks, and I can get him to use his size strategically in the run game"

I disagree about thinking "better than anyone he could get at 25th overall in the 2023 draft".  

 

Schoen is a Beane disciple.  He was there when Beane said "not gonna get the QB who will take us places picking 21st overall, and not gonna find partners on draft day to pick high enough" and systematically traded Cordy Glenn and pick 21 for the #12 pick, as well as trading other guys on the Bills roster who had shown they could play (Ronald Darby for a 3rd rounder etc) to accumulate ammunition for Draft Day.  

 

And in fact, in 2022, the Giants picked at #5 overall.  So they could have gone for a QB then, too.
 

Bottom line, IMHO (and you're welcome to disagree) Daboll had to have thought Jones was someone he could mold into a guy he could win with, or he would have told Schoen in 2023 to go get him his guy, and Schoen had the blueprint for how to get that done.

 

32 minutes ago, stuvian said:

Daboll is a walking Ozempic ad

 

Very likely

Edited 3 hours ago by Beck Water