Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[GaryPinC]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Josh does beat him when it has counted. It’s the rest of the team and coaching staff that needs to learn to elevate in the big games.

It's always a team game.  Mahomes still had to come in with 13 seconds and make all the right plays to win.  He ended up bettering Josh, through zero fault of Josh.

 

Last year Diggs dropped that deep ball, but it was Josh who made the decision and wasted that down.  And that wasn't the last play of the game.

 

But that's highly subjective and argumentative, that's why for me team end results have to factor in.  But, it doesn't mean Josh has to beat Mahomes in the playoffs.  That would be great and highly symbolic, but  KC could get beat early by another team and the Bills win a Superbowl.  That would cement things for a change of guard situation.

..

[ToGoGo]

4 hours ago, Uncle Monkeyhead said:

I can't stand the new age narrative regarding which QB is better based on head-to-head and playoffs/championships. 

NFL football is the ultimate team sport. Ppl have lost this with the media narrative of the last 10 years or so. 

 

MVP has become a QB beauty talent show.

A is better than B was never a measuring stick in the past. It was team vs team, not baseball-like pitcher wins. 

 

Josh Allen is clearly better than Pat Mahomes. Just watch the games. 

 

But Pat has SB wins, so he's better?? His team, divisional imbalance, and system is. 

 

If we use the current criteria for greatness, then Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler are greater than Jim Kelly. 

 

This is just silly and why are fans buying into this year after year now? 

 

It’s built into human biology. Who won? Who’s the leader on the winning team? That’s the best guy. 
 

It takes second level thinking to see beyond that, something the casual sports fan lacks, driven by simple and emotional media narratives. 
 

This is very evident on X where any pro-Allen post is immediately invaded by emotional one liners saying Mahomes has the SBs or Allen will throw 4 picks next week. 
 

In fact, the X posters have a strange cognitive dissonance when they are given strong stats showing Allen’s historic statistical dominance the last 5 years. They counter with weird arguments such as “Allen has so many turnovers” and “Allen is Mr. September” or “Allen sucks in the playoffs”. When shown it’s not true they counter with something else that shows they actually don’t know themselves why Allen is worse, they’re just tied emotionally to a negative opinion. 
 

With this Allen MVP run we’re seeing old narratives begin to melt away as people realize their old opinions don’t really hold anymore. Even Chiefs fans default to “3-0 SB brah” which shows how defensive and on their heels they are about Allen and how they don’t have much else to say. 

[UKBillFan]

9 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I'm not talking about team results or about past performances. I'm talking about right now.

And it's not really all that close.

Mahomes will certainly find his rhythm and close the gap, but he has a ways to go before he's as good as Allen is right now.

Bit this is Mahomes all over - in the regular season he, more than often then not, just does enough. He ticks things over, looks a game manager, puts on a basic clinic but very rarely see “wow” plays. Then he goes off in the play offs.

 

The Josh Allen experience in comparison, up to the start of 2024, has been a joyous rollercoaster. He has hit some brilliant highs, but some baffling lows, albeit he’s barely been at fault for play off exits, maybe 2022 aside but then everyone was bad and coming off a horrible year off the field, plus what happened to Hamlin.
 

This season so far there is no question he is looking like the best QB in football but there is a long way to go, and I won’t be suggesting a changing in the guard until the Bills get over the hump and/or they beat the Chiefs post season.

[BuffaloBill]

9 hours ago, Simon said:

They've been 1a and 1b for almost 5 years now, with Mahomes maintaining a slight edge.

But Josh Allen has passed Patrick Mahomes and is currently the best QB on planet Earth.

That is all.

This will not hold across the masses until Josh wins at least a couple of Lombardis. Not much different than Brady / Manning. Brady has more metal though arguably Manning was the better QB.

[Gregg]

If you put Allen on the Chiefs and Mahomes on the Bills, then it would be Allen with the Super Bowl wins and Mahomes would still be trying to get to a Super Bowl. The Chiefs have a better HC and DC then the Bills. The Chiefs players around Mahomes step up in the big moments. The Bills players (specifically the defense) have not up to this point. That is difference between the two QB's. As great as Allen is he alone can't get the Bills to the Super Bowl. Same for Mahomes.

[Mikey152]

5 hours ago, Uncle Monkeyhead said:

I can't stand the new age narrative regarding which QB is better based on head-to-head and playoffs/championships. 

NFL football is the ultimate team sport. Ppl have lost this with the media narrative of the last 10 years or so. 

 

MVP has become a QB beauty talent show.

A is better than B was never a measuring stick in the past. It was team vs team, not baseball-like pitcher wins. 

 

Josh Allen is clearly better than Pat Mahomes. Just watch the games. 

 

But Pat has SB wins, so he's better?? His team, divisional imbalance, and system is. 

 

If we use the current criteria for greatness, then Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler are greater than Jim Kelly. 

 

This is just silly and why are fans buying into this year after year now? 

 

The real answer?  It’s not new.  Just look at Tom Brady, and Joe Montana before him.

 

Marino was a better quarterback than Montana. Rodgers, Manning and maybe even Brees were better QBs than Brady. It’s just the way it is.

[zow2]

For most of the last 5 years I've said that Mahomes is the best QB while Josh is the best overall athlete in the NFL.   But yeah, now the game seems to have slowed to a crawl for Allen and he's processing everything pre-snap, during the play, etc..  He has been able to slow his heart rate or whatever at the beginning of games to where he is relaxed now.  It's crazy how good he is at this moment... so yeah now i think he's the best QB in addition to the overall best athlete.   

[Billsatlastin2018]

1 hour ago, GaryPinC said:

It's always a team game.  Mahomes still had to come in with 13 seconds and make all the right plays to win.  He ended up bettering Josh, through zero fault of Josh.

 

Last year Diggs dropped that deep ball, but it was Josh who made the decision and wasted that down.  And that wasn't the last play of the game.

 

But that's highly subjective and argumentative, that's why for me team end results have to factor in.  But, it doesn't mean Josh has to beat Mahomes in the playoffs.  That would be great and highly symbolic, but  KC could get beat early by another team and the Bills win a Superbowl.  That would cement things for a change of guard situation.

..

 

Most of us have long ago pointed to who was responsible for ‘13 Seconds’.
And it sure as shite wasn’t Josh Allen!

 

Last year, there was a miscalculation decision. On Allen or Coaching or Both? I’ve settled on both. With their 2023 D, it was ALL about the @ Baltimore game plan. Bleed all the time & Chiefs TOs and at worst, kick a tieing FG. They were doing just that until that decision. Meh. In the past.

 

On to this year. Allen has looked superhuman, so improved, that ALL outside critics have been silenced! Obviously, after 3 games, he looks like the league MVP. And Kermit has struggled. But yet again, when the dust has settled they are both 3-0.

 

The TEAM, especially on D, despite injuries looks… well… better. Everybody is making big plays. And aside from the one Cookie TD toss going through the wickets last night, have you noticed the Dropsys of the Receivers?

 

NO, YOU HAVE NOT! Yes, they are catching the easy ones, but the Shakirs, Kincaids, Colemans, hello D Knox are catching EVERYTHING this season!

The proof finally is in the Lombardi pudding. I would take 1 SB for 5 #17 MVPs… as would everybody here. Until Manning beat the GOAT, he couldn’t make any claim. Brady was rarely the best QB in all his years, but he absolutely was the finest, most intelligent leader and field general. 
 

Mahomes is a better QB than Brady. And he has those same intangible clutch dying seconds QB leadership skills! He can’t be called the GOAT until he gets by him, though. 
 

Allen to me and most here is logically a better QB than Mahomes. Because he’s 1 year behind in the All Time QB Stats, it appears that he’s far behind. But, he’s not. BOTH move up exponentially every year. Last night, Allen went to #69 on the All Time list of QB TDs. Mahomes is # 38. Both will be in the Top 40 & 70 by the end of the Year in TDs & Yards. 
 

Allen is also the Unicorn freak of nature, chasing down BOTH the QB Rushing GOATs - Vick (yards), Allen is now 7th. a+ Cam Newton TDs, Allen is already 2nd.

 

The critical keys are of course, the other Stats categories- the Playoff ones. When Josh catches Mahomes and takes a run at the GOAT,then we will no, he is the greatest!

 

And the Bills have won Lombardis! Plural!

 

The next 3 games, all away against Playoff bound teams are a significant test. Sweep and we will know the Bills are in a very good place and Josh is moving towards the MVP- SB Exactor.

 

Go 🦬!

[Ralonzo]

10 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Two years later, Ric lost his title Harley Race.  We are overdue.

 

Allen is better in regular season.  Mahomes is better in the playoffs.

 

Because in the title match the ref does a heel turn and ignores the chair shot.

[Bill from NYC]

11 hours ago, Simon said:

They've been 1a and 1b for almost 5 years now, with Mahomes maintaining a slight edge.

But Josh Allen has passed Patrick Mahomes and is currently the best QB on planet Earth.

That is all.

I am still amazed watching Allen play. He really is perhaps the most gifted QB in NFL history. He makes difficult passes look easy with his combination of touch, placement, and of course arm strength. 

 

I hope that I live long enough to see him inducted into the HOF.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Nobody in the league other than Bills fans think it’s been “1a and 1b” between Josh and Mahomes … sorry. Mahomes has been #1, then everybody else.

 

Fine but who cares but random people think? A lot of random NFL fans thought Brock Purdy belonged in the MVP conversation last year. This is the last thought on my mind in the discussion.

[peterpan]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

This will not hold across the masses until Josh wins at least a couple of Lombardis. Not much different than Brady / Manning. Brady has more metal though arguably Manning was the better QB.

Come on.  Manning was so much better than Brady.  Brady and the cheaters cheated through most if not all of their superbowl.  All of Brady’s early Superbowls, he actually sucked.  He’d throw a few screens and draws and get 160 yards passing and they’d win by knowing the other teams plays.  Without knowing the other teams plays they never win those first few. 
 

Allen can be better than Mahomes and has been at times, but not consistently.  I think some fans in this thread aren’t giving Mahomes the credit he deserves.  There are games when he is absolutely un-sackable and unstoppable.  Much like Josh can be.  When we have played them our D will play great, but still looks like Swiss cheese.  
 

They are the best two in the league.  Burrow is good too.  He’s extremely polished pocket passer with amazing accuracy.  He just can’t make the amazing scrambles that Allen and Mahomes can.  Lamar isn’t the passer of those three.  
 

That said Sam Darnold might swipe Allen’s mvp this year lol!!

[technobot]

He (obviously) seems dialed in. Those reports in training camp and preseason were true, that he has an elevated focus and it's really showing so far.

 

Gunner mentioned in the gameday thread that Allen's not trying to be Superman all the time, more like Brady (TB12) when the opportunity presents itself. Well said. He is (at this moment) more than happy to take all the easy sh*t underneath and let his weapons YAC the other guys to death, if that's what the opposing defense is exposing.

 

My (uneducated) guess is that Diggs was addition through subtraction. Obviously we lost a quality receiver but the chemistry with what is left is night and day. You have a bunch of guys that (for now) just want to do their jobs and execute and have bought into "everyone eats", but moreso when the team is winning! He's in the rearview mirror behind us but my guess is 2020 was the one year we got "best behaviour" Diggs.

 

What others have correctly mentioned about 2020 being Allen's best statistical year, matched with his best receiving corps... this iteration might not have the direct "star" power but they certainly have weapons, versatility, and an eagerness to do the grubby things, like block. It's easy when things are going your way, but for now, no one is sulking about not getting targeted 15 times in the first half.

 

[Mikie2times]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

You can get there with basic logic. Let's say a team's success is 40% offensive roster, 35% defensive roster, 10% special teams, 15% coaching. In that scenario if you want to say a QB is worth 60% of the offense's success then you are saying a QB is 24% of his team's success. Feel free to quibble with these numbers but I doubt you'll argue with the overarching point and logic I'm using.

 

Like I said this doesn't mean QBs aren't extremely important. A single player having a 25% impact on their entire team is ridiculous value actually. And that's why QB stats correlate with wins. But if you're talking about two individual teams the QB alone is not going to be the difference. Especially not in effectively a three game sample size which is what separates Allen and Mahomes in the playoffs.

 

Easier way to say it is that QBs are responsible for a plurality of their team's success but not the majority. That's why my hypothetical trade example kind of ends the discussion if you're being honest with yourself. Mahomes vs Allen does not explain the Chiefs success vs the Bills success in recent years.

So no difference in your mind between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady? How about Joe Montana and Dan Marino? Mahomes is currently in "best of all time" discussion. Josh is in hall of fame discussion. The difference, in my opinion, doesn't fit neatly into your argument. 

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So no difference in your mind between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady? How about Joe Montana and Dan Marino? Mahomes is currently in "best of all time" discussion. Josh is in hall of fame discussion. The difference, in my opinion, doesn't fit neatly into your argument. 

 

No I think Brady is the GOAT. Better than Peyton Manning for sure. But I also think that the difference between Brady and Manning does not solely explain 7 SB wins vs 2 SB wins. Making that point for me is the fact that Manning got one of his in the worst season of his career. When you combine an elite QB with an elite coaching staff and an elite playoff defense you get a dynasty. That's what the Pats had and that's what the Chiefs have now.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Pat Mahomes has won 3 Super Bowls and 2 NFL MVPs and has beaten Josh in the playoffs every single time, whether it’s Josh’s fault or not.

 

Nobody in the league other than Bills fans think it’s been “1a and 1b” between Josh and Mahomes … sorry. Mahomes has been #1, then everybody else.

 

As of now, 3 weeks into the season, it looks like Josh might finally overtake him, but he needs to beat him in the playoffs first or at least win any type of award that Mahomes has multiple of.

 

That just feels like common sense.

What josh did to the chiefs defense in the playoffs last year was significantly more impressive than what mahomes did to the bills and it’s really not close imo if we’re strictly talking qb vs qb.  The ‘whether it’s joshs fault or not’ is nonsense.  
 

The injury gods smiled on the chiefs and gave them aj klein to exploit and they still only snuck by.  Josh would’ve absolutely nuked the chiefs if you swapped Bolton for an aj klein level player.  I get the whole ‘injuries are no excuse/next man up’ shtick when it’s reasonable but that was outrageous. 

 

chiefs are very fortunate to not be 1-4 against the bills in their last 5 with the only win being 13 seconds rn. I genuinely don’t think mahomes has been as good as Allen the last year plus.

Edited September 24 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

49 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So no difference in your mind between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady? How about Joe Montana and Dan Marino? Mahomes is currently in "best of all time" discussion. Josh is in hall of fame discussion. The difference, in my opinion, doesn't fit neatly into your argument. 

Obviously we’re all guessing what’s gonna happen in the future here haha but if we extrapolate what the chiefs offense has done into the future I think mahomes is gonna fall out of the goat talks personally.  That offense seems to go as Kelce goes and he looks to be declining to my eye. Things are starting to look difficult for them.  Without sneed I don’t think that defense is quite good enough to carry them consistently but I guess we have to wait and see 

Can’t fault people for keeping the crown on mahomes if they keep winning but if they start to lose some games it’ll be on their offense for sure 

Edited September 24 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Mikie2times]

54 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I think Brady is the GOAT. Better than Peyton Manning for sure. But I also think that the difference between Brady and Manning does not solely explain 7 SB wins vs 2 SB wins. Making that point for me is the fact that Manning got one of his in the worst season of his career. When you combine an elite QB with an elite coaching staff and an elite playoff defense you get a dynasty. That's what the Pats had and that's what the Chiefs have now.

Agree to disagree here. Not worth going 20 rounds. 

[Goin Breakdown]

I just sent a ton of media hype regarding Josh being the best QB in the league. My son's response was Josh has no rings yet so most people won't care. I threatened to ban him from texting me again

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

So no difference in your mind between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady? How about Joe Montana and Dan Marino? Mahomes is currently in "best of all time" discussion. Josh is in hall of fame discussion. The difference, in my opinion, doesn't fit neatly into your argument. 

of course it does

 

verbatim people have been saying for years now that the difference between the Chiefs and Bills isn't at the QB spot. it's easier to see now but that didn't make it any less true when it was first said