Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[BullBuchanan]

20 hours ago, Sweats said:

If JA doesn't get an MVP or never hoists the Lombardi, we can all agree that he will at least be a first ballot Hall of Famer anyways, he is currently the most electric player in the NFL and is a player that everyone tunes in to watch every week and, in my eyes, that puts him miles above any player in the league right now.

 

I don't think Mahomo generates the buzz of excitement every week that JA does IMO

He will if he plays another 5 years at the same level. Mahomes could have retired last February and would be a unanimous first ballot.

[GASabresIUFan]

33 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Brady is the GOAT.

It’s a little early to be calling Joe Brady the goat.

[Scott7975]

[Success]

In a nutshell, people have generally asked "how will Allen be without Diggs," and (though maybe to a lesser extent), "how will Mahomes be without Kelce?"

 

Mahomes still has Kelce - but he's slower and not who he was.  3 games in, it's not looking so good. 

 

We know Diggs didn't make Allen. But who knows....maybe Kelce made Mahomes?

 

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, Success said:

In a nutshell, people have generally asked "how will Allen be without Diggs," and (though maybe to a lesser extent), "how will Mahomes be without Kelce?"

 

Mahomes still has Kelce - but he's slower and not who he was.  3 games in, it's not looking so good. 

 

We know Diggs didn't make Allen. But who knows....maybe Kelce made Mahomes?

 

I believe we already did the “Tyreek made Mahomes” saga and he won 2 Super Bowls after losing him. But of course, he still did have Kelce playing at an elite HoF level.

 

Boy it would be nice for Mahomes to struggle and get blasted in the WC.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:57 AM, SaulGoodman said:

 

The guy's had one of the top defenses in the league virtually every year,

 

 

And every postseason that defense plays like hot garbage when it matters the most. Even last year, K.C.'s offense was BAD an yet the Bills defense managed to allow K.C. to score the most points out of all of their 4 post season games. If the Bills D would have played to the average of the Ravens, 49ers and Dolphins (Dolphins!?!) they would have easily beat K.C. 

 

The Bills D has been BAD in 4 straight post season exists. This argument that Allen has a top defense every year doesn't hold any water when we start talking about the lack of postseason success for the Bills. You would think by blind luck they would have had at least one good defensive game out of 4 attempts. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:54 AM, Success said:

In a nutshell, people have generally asked "how will Allen be without Diggs," and (though maybe to a lesser extent), "how will Mahomes be without Kelce?"

 

Mahomes still has Kelce - but he's slower and not who he was.  3 games in, it's not looking so good. 

 

We know Diggs didn't make Allen. But who knows....maybe Kelce made Mahomes?

 

 

The sample size is actually quite larger than 3 games now. Mahomes struggled greatly last season by his standards and so far through 3 games the struggles continue or are even perhaps worse. KC won a Super Bowl last year on the back of their dominant defense and Chris Jones. The sample size is 20 games and counting now of Mahomes being far below is career averages. Allen has been statistically a better QB for 20+ games and counting now.

 

On 9/25/2024 at 10:57 AM, RoscoeParrish said:

I believe we already did the “Tyreek made Mahomes” saga and he won 2 Super Bowls after losing him. But of course, he still did have Kelce playing at an elite HoF level.

 

Boy it would be nice for Mahomes to struggle and get blasted in the WC.

 

Mahomes had a honeymoon period in his first year without Tyreek where Mahomes some of the best ball of his career and would go on to win MVP. Second to only his first MVP season. But that honeymoon ended last season as Mahomes and the Chiefs offense struggled all year. Fortunately, for them and not for the rest of the league, the Chiefs offensive dip coincided with their defense turning into one of the top units in the league.

 

This year Mahomes has a #1 WR again in Rice but so far it has not made a difference. Mahomes and the Chiefs offense continues to struggle. 

 

Are Allen and the Bills in a similar offensive honeymoon period with perceived lack of talent at the skill positions? How long will the honeymoon last? 

[RoscoeParrish]

28 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The sample size is actually quite larger than 3 games now. Mahomes struggled greatly last season by his standards and so far through 3 games the struggles continue or are even perhaps worse. KC won a Super Bowl last year on the back of their dominant defense and Chris Jones. The sample size is 20 games and counting now of Mahomes being far below is career averages. Allen has been statistically a better QB for 20+ games and counting now.

 

 

Mahomes had a honeymoon period in his first year without Tyreek where Mahomes some of the best ball of his career and would go on to win MVP. Second to only his first MVP season. But that honeymoon ended last season as Mahomes and the Chiefs offense struggled all year. Fortunately, for them and not for the rest of the league, the Chiefs offensive dip coincided with their defense turning into one of the top units in the league.

 

This year Mahomes has a #1 WR again in Rice but so far it has not made a difference. Mahomes and the Chiefs offense continues to struggle. 

 

Are Allen and the Bills in a similar offensive honeymoon period with perceived lack of talent at the skill positions? How long will the honeymoon last? 

As long as the honeymoon lasts until after the SB parade, I’m good with it

 

All we need is one. I don’t mind if Josh Allen doesn’t go down as the best QB in NFL history, but he gets one and he gets the honors of being the best Bills QB/player ever. Which is what he and this fan base deserve imo.

[ToGoGo]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:57 PM, RoscoeParrish said:

I believe we already did the “Tyreek made Mahomes” saga and he won 2 Super Bowls after losing him. But of course, he still did have Kelce playing at an elite HoF level.

 

Boy it would be nice for Mahomes to struggle and get blasted in the WC.

 

It's beginning to look like Tyreek was replaceable, but Kelce was not. 

[mjd1001]

I have felt the same way about Mahomes and Allen, and although things seem a BIT different this year, I'm still feeling the same:

 

-Overall, especially in 'must win' or 'must score' situations, they are both great, but Mahomes is a bit better. But again, in 'most' situations, Mahomes has the slight edge still.

 

-"Peak" Mahomes, vs "Peak" Allen, both playing at their absolute best, Allen is better.  Allen at his absolute peak makes his offense unstoppable no matter what you do.

[ToGoGo]

51 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

As long as the honeymoon lasts until after the SB parade, I’m good with it

 

All we need is one. I don’t mind if Josh Allen doesn’t go down as the best QB in NFL history, but he gets one and he gets the honors of being the best Bills QB/player ever. Which is what he and this fan base deserve imo.

 

With the way Allen is trending, don't be surprised if there will be more than 1.

 

I'm looking at that EPA chart, and we're beginning to see Allen break out as not just the #1 QB, but a standard deviation above whoever #2 is. That's what it looks like when a high-end HOF/GOAT begins to enter their prime. Lots of casual fans are calling him Mr. September, but anybody who's watched Allen over the years knows that this feels different. It's all starting to come together.

 

It reminds me of the Kobe stories where he worked so hard for so long that he got so far ahead of everybody else, that it wasn't possible for any player to have a "great summer" and get to his level. We might be seeing that with Allen now. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The sample size is actually quite larger than 3 games now. Mahomes struggled greatly last season by his standards and so far through 3 games the struggles continue or are even perhaps worse. KC won a Super Bowl last year on the back of their dominant defense and Chris Jones. The sample size is 20 games and counting now of Mahomes being far below is career averages. Allen has been statistically a better QB for 20+ games and counting now.

 

 

Mahomes had a honeymoon period in his first year without Tyreek where Mahomes some of the best ball of his career and would go on to win MVP. Second to only his first MVP season. But that honeymoon ended last season as Mahomes and the Chiefs offense struggled all year. Fortunately, for them and not for the rest of the league, the Chiefs offensive dip coincided with their defense turning into one of the top units in the league.

 

This year Mahomes has a #1 WR again in Rice but so far it has not made a difference. Mahomes and the Chiefs offense continues to struggle. 

 

Are Allen and the Bills in a similar offensive honeymoon period with perceived lack of talent at the skill positions? How long will the honeymoon last? 

there are a couple reasons for the Chiefs' struggles on offense thus far but Mahomes' poor (for him) play is the driving factor. Once he cleans it up they will be fine and that's scary considering

[DapperCam]

On 9/23/2024 at 10:42 PM, gonzo1105 said:

Im not arguing that Josh isn’t on the same level he is, but Mahomes has 3 trophies and Allen doesn’t.  Mahomes also made plays in that 13 seconds game and took his team down and won it in OT. There is no guarantee if the Bills had all their guys last year they win. 

One of the plays that even allowed the Chiefs to be close at the end of that game was a simple crossing route where Hill ran past all of the Bills DBs. Being afraid of Hill’s speed on the subsequent drives made the Bills play passive (with the results we all know).

 

The crux of this thread is Mahomes put up gaudy numbers when he had a HOF coach/playcaller, HOF (probably GOAT) TE, and HOF caliber WR (who put up one of the best WR seasons of all time last year without Mahomes).

 

Mahomes and Allen both still have 1/2 to 2/3 of their careers left. Let’s see how it all plays out before we crown Kermit.

[ToGoGo]

1 minute ago, DapperCam said:

One of the plays that even allowed the Chiefs to be close at the end of that game was a simple crossing route where Hill ran past all of the Bills DBs. Being afraid of Hill’s speed on the subsequent drives made the Bills play passive (with the results we all know).

 

The crux of this thread is Mahomes put up gaudy numbers when he had a HOF coach/playcaller, HOF (probably GOAT) TE, and HOF caliber WR (who put up one of the best WR seasons of all time last year without Mahomes).

 

Mahomes and Allen both still have 1/2 to 2/3 of their careers left. Let’s see how it all plays out before we crown Kermit.

 

I've been seeing A LOT of these "Mahomes has the rings" arguments lately. But not much else.

 

For those that have actually watched the games, it's clear that it's not Allen vs Mahomes but Bills vs Chiefs. Ever since 2021, It's been Allen > Mahomes and Bills < Chiefs. 

 

Once Bills = Chiefs or Bills > Chiefs, it's over. Mahomes will fall back in the Lamar/Burrow category and Allen will be sole #1 as he has been since 2021. 

[Dr. K]

On 9/23/2024 at 10:31 PM, Simon said:

They've been 1a and 1b for almost 5 years now, with Mahomes maintaining a slight edge.

But Josh Allen has passed Patrick Mahomes and is currently the best QB on planet Earth.

That is all.

Hold your horses. Fourteen games to go. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

On 9/23/2024 at 10:42 PM, gonzo1105 said:

Im not arguing that Josh isn’t on the same level he is, but Mahomes has 3 trophies and Allen doesn’t.  Mahomes also made plays in that 13 seconds game and took his team down and won it in OT. There is no guarantee if the Bills had all their guys last year they win. 

This feels like it’s turning into a semantics thing almost…not trying to say you’re wrong at all it really depends on how you interpret the topic.  To me, mahomes is clearly not playing anywhere near his 2018-2021 mvp indisputably better than any other qb self for the last year plus so I think those first two superbowl trophies/mvp award don’t really match what’s going on currently.  So if we’re talking about who is better currently, I don’t personally put a tremendous amount of weight in those performances from a couple years ago. 
 

they did win the superbowl last year but I think mahomes’ play is a bit inflated by getting to face hilariously injured dolphins and bills defenses.  The mahomes of old would’ve dropped 50+ on those teams.
 

 He’s still great obviously but if we’re talking future projections I think you can def make a case for Allen or Mahomes being the best depending on how you look at things 

 

 

Edited September 27 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Scott7975]

Cat fight...

 

 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:56 AM, Buffalo716 said:

 

But yes Dan Marino was widely considered to be the greatest pure passer in the history of football before Brady... Aka the best pure quarterback 

 

He retired with the most yards.. most passing touchdowns.. retired with the most game-winning drives... The most 300 yard games passing... The most 400 yard games passing... First quarterback to have a 5,000 yard season.. first quarterback to 50,000 passing yards.. first quarterback to 60,000 passing yards 

 

Even Joe Montana said he was the best quarterback ever

If the Bills draft Marino instead of passing in favor of a guy who wanted nothing to do with playing here, he still might be classified as the GOAT to this day with all the Super Bowls he would’ve won in Buffalo, providing most of the other pieces that built those Super Bowl teams somehow still fall into place… Only the Bills would draft the guy from Miami who refused to play in Buffalo, and pass on the guy who thrived in a similar climate of Pittsburgh, sending him to Miami 🤦‍♂️ 

[finn]

37 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Cat fight...

 

 

That Orlovsky quote (if it's serious) captures the absurdity of the discourse on Mahomes. It's like, "Who do you believe, me or your lying eyes?" To most NFL commentators, it wouldn't matter if Allen outplayed Mahomes all year and won the Super Bowl, while Mahomes threw 16 interceptions and KC didn't make the playoffs; he STILL would be "better" than Allen in their minds. Motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, backfire effect... pick your bias, they're guilty of it. At the bottom of it all is insecurity. They need Mahomes to be better because they've associated his success with themselves in some twisted, unconscious way, so evidence that contradicts their belief doesn't just not matter, it actually causes them to double down on their beliefs because it's so scary to admit they're wrong and Mahomes (aka, they themselves) are second best. So when Allen is hoiting the Lombardi trophy in February, they'll be even more shrilly insistent that Mahomes is better. 

[Scott7975]