Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[SaulGoodman]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

You mean the Chiefs who's combined opponents are also two wins and seven losses? 

 

The team that has needed to get bailed out? 

 

Josh has played teams with a combined record of 2 and 7 and he's high-fiving teammates and sitting on the bench in the fourth quarter.. not trying for a last second win

 

This is where I point out the chasm in overall accomplishments, before you pivot back to “it’s a team game.”

 

Records are meaningless at this point of the season. Do you actually think the Bengals and Ravens will be at the top of the draft? 
 

KC gets everyone’s best shot, and yet they appear to sleepwalk through most games. Because the regular season becomes a boring formality to a team that’s used to winning championships. 

[Mikie2times]

24 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I haven't been following your arguments in this thread, so maybe we share the same take. 

 

I would say Mahomes is the most decorated QB playing in the game today. Just as Brady is still the GOAT as he is the most decorated of all-time. Mahomes is the best QB the league has seen to date but he is not decorated enough for GOAT status.

 

Currently, Allen is the best QB in the game today and if he keeps it up he could over take Mahomes title of best QB to ever to play the game. Whether either of Mahomes or Allen achieve GOAT status is up in the air. 

I haven’t made much of an attempt to debate who currently is playing better. I think it’s pretty clear Josh is playing better. As for the rest of it, same stuff that’s been debated here for years. Mahomes and the Chiefs are that successful because of coaching and the roster, and if Josh had that, bla bla. Josh could very well end up being better than Mahomes. But for the time being the guys trajectory is second to only what Brady did.  

[SaulGoodman]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yes because everybody knows super bowls is a quarterback stat not a team stat 

 

Dan Marino was widely considered the greatest quarterback of all time before Brady and he never won a super bowl

Marino was widely considered the GOAT? He’s usually nowhere close in that argument. And specifically due to the lack of championships. 
 

No QB has ever accomplished what Mahomes has at this point in a career. And those who are in the vicinity didn’t have the unique combination of abilities that Mahomes possesses. The off-platform sidearm throws, the athleticism, improv ability, escapability, instincts, arm strength, etc. 

 

Of course you’re going to favor your guy if there’s any argument to be made. But if the roles were reversed and you were a KC fan, you’d laugh your ass off at people claiming that Allen is obviously the better player. It’s like a Chargers fan claiming that Rivers had clearly surpassed prime Brady after a couple wins over the Lions and Browns.

 

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The narrative that Allen is disrespected by the media has always been ridiculous. He’s been hyped more than any QB in history with similar accomplishments. 

[Buffalo716]

12 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Marino was widely considered the GOAT? He’s usually nowhere close in that argument. And specifically due to the lack of championships. 
 

No QB has ever accomplished what Mahomes has at this point in a career. And those who are in the vicinity didn’t have the unique combination of abilities that Mahomes possesses. The off-platform sidearm throws, the athleticism, improv ability, escapability, instincts, arm strength, etc. 

 

Of course you’re going to favor your guy if there’s any argument to be made. But if the roles were reversed and you were a KC fan, you’d laugh your ass off at people claiming that Allen is obviously the better player. It’s like a Chargers fan claiming that Rivers had clearly surpassed prime Brady after a couple wins over the Lions and Browns.

 

The narrative that Allen is disrespected by the media has always been ridiculous. He’s been hyped more than any QB in history with similar accomplishments. 

First of all nobody used the word goat 25 years ago when Marino's generation retired 

 

Second there were definitely really good quarterbacks in the era including Kelly and Warren Moon and John elway Joe Montana a little bit before them 

 

Joe Cool was again the greatest winner of all time before Brady and one of the greatest quarterbacks 

 

But yes Dan Marino was widely considered to be the greatest pure passer in the history of football before Brady... Aka the best pure quarterback 

 

He retired with the most yards.. most passing touchdowns.. retired with the most game-winning drives... The most 300 yard games passing... The most 400 yard games passing... First quarterback to have a 5,000 yard season.. first quarterback to 50,000 passing yards.. first quarterback to 60,000 passing yards 

 

Even Joe Montana said he was the best quarterback ever

[Ray Stonada]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

First of all nobody used the word goat 25 years ago when Marino's generation retired 

 

Second there were definitely really good quarterbacks in the era including Kelly and Warren Moon and John elway Joe Montana a little bit before them 

 

Joe Cool was again the greatest winner of all time before Brady and one of the greatest quarterbacks 

 

But yes Dan Marino was widely considered to be the greatest pure passer in the history of football before Brady... Aka the best pure quarterback 

 

He retired with the most yards.. most passing touchdowns.. retired with the most game-winning drives... The most 300 yard games passing... The most 400 yard games passing... First quarterback to have a 5,000 yard season.. first quarterback to 50,000 passing yards.. first quarterback to 60,000 passing yards 

 

Even Joe Montana said he was the best quarterback ever

I don’t remember this. Everyone agreed that Marino was the most productive passer ever but no one I remember said he was the best quarterback.

 

Yes, he was the best at amassing passing yards, 300 yard games, etc.

 

But Marino was also a statue who needed to get rid of the ball quickly, and didn’t create off script as well as other guys, like Montana or Elway.

[Success]

10 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

So the vast majority of analysts are casuals? 
 

 

You said fans.

 

[Success]

9 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

This is where I point out the chasm in overall accomplishments, before you pivot back to “it’s a team game.”

 

Records are meaningless at this point of the season. Do you actually think the Bengals and Ravens will be at the top of the draft? 
 

KC gets everyone’s best shot, and yet they appear to sleepwalk through most games. Because the regular season becomes a boring formality to a team that’s used to winning championships. 

 

Man, you really move the goalposts all over the place.

 

[Nelius]

I love this new contrarian sentiment about how the entire regular season is completely meaningless.

 

It’s like the try hards are already planting their discounting of Josh’s potential MVP like three months in advance.

9 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

The narrative that Allen is disrespected by the media has always been ridiculous. He’s been hyped more than any QB in history with similar accomplishments. 

Except…no other QB in history has similar accomplishments.

 

Saul really over here trying to act like Josh is maybe a step above Trevor Lawrence. Like there’s some interchangeable group of QBs every year after Mahomes and Josh is just one of them. Please enlighten us with your current QB tier list, this should be good.

[SaulGoodman]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yes you are right that he wasn't the best improviser and he needed to get rid of the ball quickly.. BUT

 

Percentage-wise he is also the least sacked quarterback of all time the modern era... He got rid of the ball very fast most of the time 

 

Sure you could argue that other guys are better.. absolutely...

 

But football is a team game...  The ultimate team game...

 

Nobody says bill Russell is the best basketball player ever cus he has 11 rings

 

 

Marino's an outlier. Every other all-time great won at least won SB, and many won multiple. Obviously it's a team game, but it's really hard to argue that a guy with zero SBs was better than someone who won several. The QB has by far the most impact on a team's success of any individual player. 

 

I'd be very surprised if Allen never wins a SB, but until he does, he doesn't deserve to be ranked ahead of guys who won several. Especially someone who's won several in a handful of years, along with multiple MVPs. 

 

The excuses are a little sad to me. If he's the most talented QB ever (as I know many of you believe), he shouldn't need superstars at every position to have a winning record in the postseason or win an AFC championship. The guy's had one of the top defenses in the league virtually every year, good coaching, good tackle play, solid receiving weapons, and decent RBs. He's had some solid rosters to work with. 

 

Mahomes hasn't had a perfect situation. His WRs were bad the last few years, tackles have been weak for much of his career, the defense was mediocre/bad every year until last season, and the running game has varied from bad to average. Plus, Nagy's held the offense back these last two years (whereas Brady is doing the exact opposite for Buffalo). 

 

KC's had a weaker roster than all four Super Bowl opponents and still won 3 of them.  I'd argue that they've had weaker rosters than several other playoff opponents too. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:05 PM by SaulGoodman

[GASabresIUFan]

Mahomes is the GOAT.  Until Josh wins a Super Bowl, he'll remain behind Mahomes even if Josh earns the MVP this season.

 

 

[SaulGoodman]

17 minutes ago, Success said:

 

You said fans.

 

 

Guess you're right. I meant unbiased parties. 

 

[Success]

13 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Marino's an outlier. Every other all-time great won at least won SB, and many won multiple. Obviously it's a team game, but it's really hard to argue that a guy with zero SBs was better than someone who won several. The QB has by far the most impact on a team's success of any individual player. 

 

I'd be very surprised if Allen never wins a SB, but until he does, he doesn't deserve to be ranked ahead of guys who won several. Especially someone who's won several in a handful of years, along with multiple MVPs. 

 

The excuses are a little sad to me. If he's the most talented QB ever (as I know many of you believe), he shouldn't need superstars at every position to have a winning record in the postseason or win an AFC championship. The guy's had one of the top defenses in the league virtually every year, good coaching, good tackle play, solid receiving weapons, and decent RBs. He's had some solid rosters to work with. 

 

Mahomes hasn't had a perfect situation. His WRs were bad the last few years, tackles have been weak for much of his career, the defense was mediocre/bad every year until last season, and the running game has varied from bad to average. Plus, Nagy's held the offense back these last two years (whereas Brady is doing the exact opposite for Buffalo). 

 

KC's had a weaker roster than all four Super Bowl opponents and still won 3 of them.  I'd argue that they've had weaker rosters than several other playoff opponents too. 

 

 

Re: the bolded - if KC had the injuries on defense that the Bills had last year and the Bills were as healthy as KC, the playoff game would have been a blowout.

 

[Don Otreply]

I’m of the opinion that we won’t know if there is a changing of the guard until game ten or so, and even then we may not know for sure , Josh in conjunction with Brady and player execution has been playing great! Fingers crossed for more outstanding play from 17!

 

GO BILLS!!!

[SaulGoodman]

30 minutes ago, Nelius said:

Except…no other QB in history has similar accomplishments.

 

Wait...what? 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

Saul really over here trying to act like Josh is maybe a step above Trevor Lawrence. Like there’s some interchangeable group of QBs every year after Mahomes and Josh is just one of them. Please enlighten us with your current QB tier list, this should be good.

 

No, he's way better than Lawrence. Not sure what makes you think I believe otherwise. 

 

For active QBs, my tiers would be something like this:

 

Mahomes

Allen

 

Jackson

Stafford

Burrow

Rodgers

Herbert

 

Stroud

Love

 

Dak

Hurts

Purdy

Goff

Carr

Cousins

Mayfield

Daniels

Murray

 

Tua, Lawrence, Geno, Darnold, etc

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:21 PM by SaulGoodman

[SaulGoodman]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Re: the bolded - if KC had the injuries on defense that the Bills had last year and the Bills were as healthy as KC, the playoff game would have been a blowout.

 

 

So you say. And I'd argue that if they switched places (Mahomes playing at home with the Bills' roster and Brady as OC), Mahomes would have still won. 

[Simon]

5 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Wait...what?

 

The kid seemingly breaks some sort of NFL record every other game.

[Nelius]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Wait...what? 

 

just that he’s already statistically unlike anything we’ve ever seen. He already has several records and will likely have several more after this season, it’s not as if there are multiple Josh Allen’s in the league. Your post read as if Josh gets unequal praise even though he’s just one of a bunch of similar QBs.

 

cant argue with your list at all, although I still don’t think that discussing the clear consensus #2 jump to #1 is an extreme discussion. We’re not acting like Darnold is making the leap  

[Success]

3 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

So you say. And I'd argue that if they switched places (Mahomes playing at home with the Bills' roster and Brady as OC), Mahomes would have still won. 

 

With Diggs dropping perfect passes while MVS was inexplicably making spectacular catches?

 

Extremely unlikely. I'd call your take very biased.

 

[Gregg]

30 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Mahomes is the GOAT.  Until Josh wins a Super Bowl, he'll remain behind Mahomes even if Josh earns the MVP this season.

 

 

 

Brady is the GOAT.

[SaulGoodman]

5 minutes ago, Success said:

 

With Diggs dropping perfect passes while MVS was inexplicably making spectacular catches?

 

Extremely unlikely. I'd call your take very biased.

 

 

And I'd say it's very biased to ignore the fortune in Allen's favor. His teammates recovering his fumble on the last drive, Hardman's goal line fumble, etc. 

 

MVS didn't make any spectacular catches. They were pretty routine. You were just surprised to see him actually hold onto the ball. 

 

By far the best catch of the game was Shakir's TD.