Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Or maybe, Any Given Sunday, and you shouldn't build theories around random events. 

 

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

An all timer would score a TD on the final drive we had vs KC.

 

I agree, you shouldn't build theories around single play high variance events.

[SaulGoodman]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

I've thought he was better than Mahomes for a few seasons now - it's just that it's more obvious this season.  

 

Kelce has slowed down, and Mahomes can't adjust.  Allen works w/ whoever he has.

 

 

 

Well, of course you think that. Most unbiased fans don't. 

 

One QB is more dialed in because he has a lot more to prove. The other has nothing to prove and is facing much better teams. 

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Probably a few times, yeah.

 

Really think about what you're saying here. Your argument boils down to nothing matters other than the QB. You recognize that makes exactly zero sense, right?

 

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

I agree, you shouldn't build theories around single play high variance events.

You're boiling my argument down to nothing else matters but QB and that drive had plenty of opportunities outside of one play. Hell, with the fumble he was lucky to even get to that play. 

[Success]

35 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Well, of course you think that. Most unbiased fans don't. 

 

One QB is more dialed in because he has a lot more to prove. The other has nothing to prove and is facing much better teams. 

 

Spin it however you want.  I'd amend your comment above - I wouldn't say "unbiased" fans. I'd say "casual."

 

[GoBills808]

49 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

I agree, you shouldn't build theories around single play high variance events.

Eli manning beats Brady twice in the Super Bowl- 'don't build theories around random events'

 

Mahomes beats Allen three times in the playoffs- 'derp Mahomes better'

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Well, of course you think that. Most unbiased fans don't. 

 

One QB is more dialed in because he has a lot more to prove. The other has nothing to prove and is facing much better teams. 

You mean the Chiefs who's combined opponents are also two wins and seven losses? 

 

The team that has needed to get bailed out? 

 

Josh has played teams with a combined record of 2 and 7 and he's high-fiving teammates and sitting on the bench in the fourth quarter.. not trying for a last second win

[skibum]

Gotta have at least one championship before we can start talking about changing of the guard. Come on.  

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, skibum said:

Gotta have at least one championship before we can start talking about changing of the guard. Come on.  

Yes because everybody knows super bowls is a quarterback stat not a team stat 

 

Dan Marino was widely considered the greatest quarterback of all time before Brady and he never won a super bowl

[BillMafia716ix]

10 hours ago, Gregg said:

If you put Allen on the Chiefs and Mahomes on the Bills, then it would be Allen with the Super Bowl wins and Mahomes would still be trying to get to a Super Bowl. The Chiefs have a better HC and DC than the Bills. The Chiefs players around Mahomes step up in the big moments. The Bills players (specifically the defense) have not up to this point. That is difference between the two QB's. As great as Allen is he alone can't get the Bills to the Super Bowl. Same for Mahomes.

Allen missed two key throws on the last drive in the last matchup vs. KC in the playoffs. That’s the difference. Both are great but Mahomes always make THE play to get his team over the jump every time 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

38 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Allen missed two key throws on the last drive in the last matchup vs. KC in the playoffs. That’s the difference. Both are great but Mahomes always make THE play to get his team over the jump every time 

Chris jones absolutely annihilated a pro bowl offensive tackle and backed him right into josh while he was throwing on that play that would’ve been a wide open td rescuing the chiefs yet again.

 

mahomes wouldn’t move the ball at all on that playoff chiefs defense…that’s the difference.  I don’t think the chiefs offense of the last year plus would hit double digits on that defense 

Edited September 24 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[MikePJ76]

its september 24th.

 

All this type of talk and this insane non stop discussion about the MVP just make no sense.

 

These are discussions that shouldn't even be started until november.  

 

This week to week conversation about end of the year individual achievements is something that has come from the crappy NBA culture that has taken over ESPN and most of the national media.  I don't recall these discussions years ago and for good reason.   

 

Lets just enjoy the games.

[Matt_In_NH]

Just want to point out Mahomes has a many ints as Josh since last season started.  Wonder if Nick wrong is mentioning that

[Simon]

1 minute ago, MikePJ76 said:

its september 24th.

 

All this type of talk and this insane non stop discussion about the MVP just make no sense.

 

These are discussions that shouldn't even be started until november.  

 

This week to week conversation about end of the year individual achievements is something that has come from the crappy NBA culture that has taken over ESPN and most of the national media.  I don't recall these discussions years ago and for good reason.   

 

Lets just enjoy the games.

 

If you don't want to have a discussion about the two best QB's in the league, that's fine.

But I can't think of a reason that you would come into my thread and tell the rest of us we shouldn't be talking about it either.

2 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

However the way Josh will be accepted by discerning football observers as the best must be connected to wins in the biggest moments

 

I don't believe that "discerning football observers" consider the quality of a QB's play to be dependent on how the rest of his team does on a given day.

[MikePJ76]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

If you don't want to have a discussion about the two best QB's in the league, that's fine.

But I can't think of a reason that you would come into my thread and tell the rest of us we shouldn't be talking about it either.

 

I don't believe that "discerning football observers" consider the quality of a QB's play to be dependent on how the rest of his team does on a given day.

i am talking about the national media and this obsession with individual awards in a team sport, 3 weeks into a long difficult season.

 

but hey I will leave Your thread and keep my opinion to my self. 

[Mikie2times]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Eli manning beats Brady twice in the Super Bowl- 'don't build theories around random events'

 

Mahomes beats Allen three times in the playoffs- 'derp Mahomes better'

 

Mahomes is better in what he has accomplished individually and with his team has accomplished in every conceivable way somebody could measure it. 

• Mahomes has best performance in NFL history in the Divisional round and the Conference Championship.  29 TD's to 2 INT's with a 10-2 record. 
• Allen has 8 TD and 2 INT's in the Divisional round and the Conference Championship with a 1-4 record. 
• Mahomes has 3 Super Bowl wins in which he has come from behind by 10 or more points / 5 playoff comebacks in the 4th quarter. Allen has zero in both columns 
• Mahomes has 3 Super Bowl MVP's and 2 NFL MVP's, Josh has zero in both columns
• Josh has never won a playoff game in OT or a regular season game in OT, Mahomes has too many to count

If somebody called out Marino as the best of all time 20 years ago you would have laughed.  Maybe they call him out as the best passer, the best release, the best accuracy. He was likely all those things, but he was not the best QB by anyway our society has decided to measure who is. Just because it seems fashionable to some Bills fans to alter that definition so our boy is number 1 does not make it accurate. It's also a bit dismissive to the overall goal which is to win a damn championship. I apologize if I'm not for supporting a Dan Marino like argument when my expectations are that Allen won't need your charity soon enough.

 

 

Edited September 25 by Mikie2times

[Saxum]

"The Whined to the Wine and Dined".

[Eastport bills]

25 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

If you don't want to have a discussion about the two best QB's in the league, that's fine.

But I can't think of a reason that you would come into my thread and tell the rest of us we shouldn't be talking about it either.

 

I don't believe that "discerning football observers" consider the quality of a QB's play to be dependent on how the rest of his team does on a given day.

You know the elite QBs and the HC gets blamed for losses and credit for wins. Do you honestly believe Josh was fairly evaluated after the losses to Cinci and KC the last 2 years. They kept saying too many turnovers, he plays hero ball, he’s not Burrow or as good as Lamar. Did anyone think the Bills would be able to compete after losing Diggs and Davis. Only Bills fans understand how great he is.

[Scott7975]

 

[SaulGoodman]

6 hours ago, Success said:

 

Spin it however you want.  I'd amend your comment above - I wouldn't say "unbiased" fans. I'd say "casual."

 

So the vast majority of analysts are casuals? 
 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Mahomes is better in what he has accomplished individually and with his team has accomplished in every conceivable way somebody could measure it. 

• Mahomes has best performance in NFL history in the Divisional round and the Conference Championship.  29 TD's to 2 INT's with a 10-2 record. 
• Allen has 8 TD and 2 INT's in the Divisional round and the Conference Championship with a 1-4 record. 
• Mahomes has 3 Super Bowl wins in which he has come from behind by 10 or more points / 5 playoff comebacks in the 4th quarter. Allen has zero in both columns 
• Mahomes has 3 Super Bowl MVP's and 2 NFL MVP's, Josh has zero in both columns
• Josh has never won a playoff game in OT or a regular season game in OT, Mahomes has too many to count

If somebody called out Marino as the best of all time 20 years ago you would have laughed.  Maybe they call him out as the best passer, the best release, the best accuracy. He was likely all those things, but he was not the best QB by anyway our society has decided to measure who is. Just because it seems fashionable to some Bills fans to alter that definition so our boy is number 1 does not make it accurate. It's also a bit dismissive to the overall goal which is to win a damn championship. I apologize if I'm not for supporting a Dan Marino like argument when my expectations are that Allen won't need your charity soon enough.

 

 

 

I haven't been following your arguments in this thread, so maybe we share the same take. 

 

I would say Mahomes is the most decorated QB playing in the game today. Just as Brady is still the GOAT as he is the most decorated of all-time. Mahomes is the best QB the league has seen to date but he is not decorated enough for GOAT status.

 

Currently, Allen is the best QB in the game today and if he keeps it up he could over take Mahomes title of best QB to ever to play the game. Whether either of Mahomes or Allen achieve GOAT status is up in the air.