Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Success said:

 

I've always thought Manning would have a few more if he played w/ Belichick instead of 5 different coaches (and Brady would have less, certainly if he played for the Colts, who weren't constructed & coached as well in those years).

 

The thought of Brady with James, Wayne, Harrison, Dallas Clark... they probably would have won more. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Mahomes and Allen have almost an identical ceiling when both on their game....

In other words,  the Infinity War to us mere mortals

 

The rest of the QB's have a visibly lower ceiling  IMO

[Success]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

The thought of Brady with James, Wayne, Harrison, Dallas Clark... they probably would have won more. 

 

Well, that was it w/ those Colts teams. They invested in skill players - not in the trenches as much.  I don't think they would have won that much more; maybe Brady would have gotten 1 more ring than Manning did there.

 

The whole argument of "head to head" falls apart w/ many examples. I mean, to look at the other Manning - Eli bested Brady TWICE in the biggest game.  Would anyone in their right mind say Eli is a better QB, or take him over Brady in their primes?

 

[zow2]

Saw this stat on TV today of Allen's last 5 games (including playoffs).

 

Comp Pct. 71.6

Pass YPG  204.6

TD-Int    11-0

Pass Rtg  118.0

Rush YPG  46.2

Rush TD    5

 

It's really astounding that he's not 5-0 in those games.  Mahomes🤬

 

169 attempts without an INT (longest active streak in the NFL currently)

 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Success said:

 

Well, that was it w/ those Colts teams. They invested in skill players - not in the trenches as much.  I don't think they would have won that much more; maybe Brady would have gotten 1 more ring than Manning did there.

 

The whole argument of "head to head" falls apart w/ many examples. I mean, to look at the other Manning - Eli bested Brady TWICE in the biggest game.  Would anyone in their right mind say Eli is a better QB, or take him over Brady in their primes?

 

It doesn't really fall apart unless you think 100% of the games played should result in exactly what was supposed to happen. 

[Eastport bills]

7 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Quarterbacks don't play each other.

 

We’re talking about anointing Josh as the best QB in football. It’s about winning games in the regular season and advancing in the playoffs. So far Josh  only done the former. Mahomes has done both. It’s a QB driven league, that’s why they’re paid 50plus million a year and usually it’s going to be Mahomes on the other team we have to beat. So as far as being considered the best, you have to vanquish Mahomes.

[Success]

1 minute ago, Eastport bills said:

We’re talking about anointing Josh as the best QB in football. It’s about winning games in the regular season and advancing in the playoffs. So far Josh  only done the former. Mahomes has done both. It’s a QB driven league, that’s why they’re paid 50plus million a year and usually it’s going to be Mahomes on the other team we have to beat. So as far as being considered the best, you have to vanquish Mahomes.

 

That's probably true for many football fans, but not for me. I don't think Eli is better than Brady because he's 2-0 against him in the playoffs.

 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Success said:

 

That's probably true for many football fans, but not for me. I don't think Eli is better than Brady because he's 2-0 against him in the playoffs.

 

So based on your logic we should be convinced the Giants had vastly better teams, better coaching, better players than those Patriots squads correct? Or maybe, Any Given Sunday, and you shouldn't build theories around random events. 

[nedboy7]

This thread has turned to a rotten piece of crap.  What a fan-base.  Attached to misery and hating their own team.  Oh god I hope we win one before I die!!!  whatever. 

[Success]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So based on your logic we should be convinced the Giants had vastly better teams, better coaching, better players than those Patriots squads correct? Or maybe, Any Given Sunday, and you shouldn't build theories around random events. 

 

So, if we're going w/ "any given Sunday" - why is Allen deemed worse than Mahomes because he has lost to those KC teams in the playoffs?  

 

 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Success said:

 

So, if we're going w/ "any given Sunday" - why is Allen deemed worse than Mahomes because he has lost to those KC teams in the playoffs?  

 

 

 

Sorry captain, but my thoughts are the prevailing ones. The burdens not on me. 

[Success]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Sorry captain, but my thoughts are the prevailing ones. The burdens not on me. 

 

I'll take the burden, and I've made my case.  I don't care a huge amount if people don't agree w/ me.  No way I'd trade Allen for Mahomes.

 

[Eastport bills]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

 

That's probably true for many football fans, but not for me. I don't think Eli is better than Brady because he's 2-0 against him in the playoffs.

 

That’s obvious because Brady has won six SBs. It’s not about beating Mahomes, it’s getting to the big game, beating whoever is there. 

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I'll take the burden, and I've made my case.  I don't care a huge amount if people don't agree w/ me.  No way I'd trade Allen for Mahomes.

 

I wouldn't trade him either. 

[Success]

Just now, Eastport bills said:

That’s obvious because Brady has won six SBs. It’s not about beating Mahomes, it’s getting to the big game, beating whoever is there. 

 

You're adding qualifiers now.  My comment was strictly based on the logic that was being presented - you said Allen had to vanquish Mahomes to be considered the best.  

 

Look, I get that this is how most people look at it.  It's not how I look at it. I think "rings" is more of an emotional appeal - rings are a team accomplishment. And I've seen the coaching & teams Mahomes has had to work with, and that Allen has had to work with. 

 

Allen has outplayed Mahomes I'd say roughly half the time in the playoffs.  I think he played better in the 13 seconds game, though it was close. It was close last year too.  But in 13 seconds, Allen did everything a QB could do to secure the win - and his D let him down.  Last year, Mahomes' defense made the big play to basically seal the game, while our depleted D simply couldn't stop the KC offense, which showed all game & had little to do w/ the disparity between the 2 QB's, if there is any.

 

[34-78-83]

Who honestly thinks Troy Aikman was a better QB than Dan Marino?

 

Those of you that say what matters is the rings do. And you're wrong.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

Eyeball test says yes, but Mahomes always manages to pull a rabbit out of the hat in a way that I've never seen from another player in my lifetime (started watching in 85).  I'm still viewing Mahomes and Josh as equals until we knock them off in the playoffs.  

 

Reading between the lines, I think you are saying that the Refs always manage to pull that yellow flag out of their belt to save them in a way never seen since the Brady/Pats era dynasty.

[Billsatlastin2018]

At THIS juncture, #17 looks like a GOAT candidate and certainly 2024 MVP front runner.

 

In the end, in February, if he isn’t hoisting the Lombardi… sorry NOT good enough!

 

It’s as simple as that.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Billsatlastin2018

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

So the Tom Brady led Colts lose to the Manning led Patriots? 

 

Probably a few times, yeah.

 

Really think about what you're saying here. Your argument boils down to nothing matters other than the QB. You recognize that makes exactly zero sense, right?

[Eastport bills]

39 minutes ago, Success said:

 

You're adding qualifiers now.  My comment was strictly based on the logic that was being presented - you said Allen had to vanquish Mahomes to be considered the best.  

 

Look, I get that this is how most people look at it.  It's not how I look at it. I think "rings" is more of an emotional appeal - rings are a team accomplishment. And I've seen the coaching & teams Mahomes has had to work with, and that Allen has had to work with. 

 

Allen has outplayed Mahomes I'd say roughly half the time in the playoffs.  I think he played better in the 13 seconds game, though it was close. It was close last year too.  But in 13 seconds, Allen did everything a QB could do to secure the win - and his D let him down.  Last year, Mahomes' defense made the big play to basically seal the game, while our depleted D simply couldn't stop the KC offense, which showed all game & had little to do w/ the disparity between the 2 QB's, if there is any.

 

Obviously your logic is sound and I don’t disagree with anything you said. However the way Josh will be accepted by discerning football observers as the best must be connected to wins in the biggest moments. Defense and coaching is always part of the equation but it’s a bottom line business and Mahomes overcame Josh’s heroics in “13 seconds” and beat the Bengals single-handedly 2 years ago on one leg. If Josh could have won that game last year and then gone into Baltimore and beat the one seed Ravens, he would have had a case. The coaching has improved and addition by subtraction with no Diggs. This is the year we get it done.