Josh Allen vs Patrick Mahomes: The changing of the guard?

[SaulGoodman]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

big gap between shutting down and not allowing 38 or 42 points like in the first two match ups.

 

and like I pointed out, the Ravens, 49ers and even Dolphins had no problem holding last year’s pedestrian Chiefs offense to under 27 points.

 

both the Ravens and 49ers shut down Chiefs offense in back to back games holding them to under 20 in regulation. Something the Bills were able to do in the regular season. But like clock work the Bills defense folded in the divisional round.

 

 

 

So, two defenses outperformed Buffalo's in that run. That doesn't mean that 27 points was insurmountable. 

 

But only SF's defense was overly successful vs KC, and not when it mattered most. Reid went very conservative in the 2nd half vs both Miami and Baltimore. When they needed plays, they got them. 

 

I wouldn't expect Allen to have quite the record that Mahomes has in the playoffs. But there's a huge difference between 15-3 and 5-5, and 4 SB appearances/3 rings vs 0. Especially when most of Allen's are WC or divisional games.  

 

If Allen is everything Bills fans claim he is, it's definitely fair to expect more. 

Edited September 29 by SaulGoodman

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Regardless of what's happened in a few playoff games, Allen has arguably the best defensive head coach in the game right now. He also has an excellent OC, and Daboll was great before him. Meanwhile, Mahomes' OC is currently holding KC's offense back. 

 

Unbiased parties like PFF have rated several of Allen's rosters either on par with KC's or better. 

 

Allen's had several years of an equal or better offensive cast than what Mahomes had the last two years. His D has been better every year but one. Kelce and Hill were a nice combo in the early years, but that's two players, and the defense was never above average while Hill was on the roster.

 

Mahomes has often faced teams with better overall rosters and usually comes out on top. All four SB opponents were clearly more stacked than KC, yet the Chiefs won 3 of 4.

 

The "he needs a great cast" line rings pretty hollow given that he's won both Super Bowls since Tyreek left, with weak receivers and weak tackles both years. 

 

Let's see Allen win a SB with Juju Smith-Schuster and MVS as his top two WRs, an average at best defense, and a high ankle sprain. Or an AFC title game with MVS, Skyy Moore and a practice squad player as his top WRs. Are you telling me that roster was loaded?

 

Teams have rarely let a QB down more than in the 2020 SB. Mahomes was running for his life the entire game (probably the worst OL play ever in a SB), yet he was still making great throws and gave the team a chance. Unfortunately for him, his receivers dropped numerous throws that hit either their facemask or hands (including three would-be TDs). His defense was torn apart, the running game did nothing, and his teammates piled up penalties. 

 

For every postseason game that Allen's defense let him down, Mahomes has a couple of his own. Aside from that one, there was the AFC title game vs NE. 37 points allowed at home, capped by Dee Ford's blunder. Mahomes never saw the ball again after getting his team in position for a tying FG in under 30 seconds. The defense allowed 35 vs the Eagles, but Mahomes still won. They allowed 36 vs the Bills (also, Butker missed multiple kicks) and put him in a hole with 13 seconds left. Still won. 

 

In '19, he was in a double digit hole in every playoff game, and won every game by double digits. Against Houston, his team put him in a 24-0 hole thanks to a comedy of errors. He had the lead by halftime and scored 51 straight points or whatever. 

 

To date, there's one playoff loss that Mahomes deserves blame for (out of 18 total playoff starts). Cincinnati in '21. And even that amounted to a handful of bad plays in the second half, after a nearly perfect first half. 

 

Something that's never mentioned when people make comparisons of playoff stats is the difference in competition. The defenses that Allen's faced have been considerably weaker on average. That's because he's only been past the divisional round once, while Mahomes is in the AFCC at a minimum every year. Facing those SF defenses, Baltimore last year, etc is not the same as Houston, IND, Miami, etc. Mahomes has put up ridiculous numbers in the early rounds of the playoffs. 

 

Why's it so hard for Bills fans to admit that Allen hasn't been perfect? That 10 points wasn't good enough vs Cincy? Or 19 in OT vs a mediocre Houston team? Or that the defense won the game vs Baltimore (17-3)? That he could've been a lot better in the AFCC game in '20? That he could've made more plays in the last matchup vs KC, and fumbled at the worst possible time? Or that he could have positioned his team better in playoff seeding in some seasons.

lol……so, who has had a better supporting cast, Allen or Mahomes?

 

Stay with me here -  I am not everyone-    talk to others about this. Allen hasn’t been perfect-  I’ve said it for years. You and I are discussing supporting casts- again-  stay with me here……who’s had the better supporting casts, Allen or Mahomes?

[NewEra]

37 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

 

 

If Allen is everything Bills fans claim he is, it's definitely fair to expect more. 

You’re so butt hurt because some Bills fans (and some non bills fans) think Josh is Mahomes equal in terms of play on the field.  
 

All my chiefs fans friends (and I have several die hard KC friends) love Josh. They hate playing him, but most  of them say he’s the most exciting player they’ve ever seen.  They know he’s going to get a Super Bowl eventually.  
 

Mahomes is in the goat talk.  Be happy-  and enjoy the runs. Why even waste your time on an opposing teams website crying about Bills fans loving their QB?  Don’t let your insecurities raise your blood pressure so much.  Life’s too short and you have an all time franchise to root for. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Or 19 in OT vs a mediocre Houston team? 

 

Anything pre 2020 season with Allen just doesn't even register on the radar. Allen wasn't even a top 10 QB up to that point. Talking about two entirely different QB's playing the position when you compare Allen's first two seasons to his last 4+. 

 

 

[Nelius]

Saul still flabbergasted that Bill fans love Bills QB Josh Allen…on a Bills message board

 

such a confusing concept. One that certainly needs another 1500 words of Saul’s frustration 

[SaulGoodman]

35 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Anything pre 2020 season with Allen just doesn't even register on the radar. Allen wasn't even a top 10 QB up to that point. Talking about two entirely different QB's playing the position when you compare Allen's first two seasons to his last 4+. 

 

 

Agreed. Which is another reason I think it’s crazy when people claim that Allen would have accomplished as much or more in Mahomes’ position.
 

In the years that Mahomes had a much better supporting cast, Allen wasn’t ready. 

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

I won't deny that board tends to be more crude than others, but most of the posters don't take it too seriously. It's just schtick in 90% of cases. 

 

Kind of the way I take your posts.

[Neo]

The dog chasing tail comparison of individual and team accomplishment probably dates to Colosseum games.  Focus.

 

For any given roster and staff, I’d start Allen over Mahomes.

Edited September 29 by Neo

[SaulGoodman]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

lol……so, who has had a better supporting cast, Allen or Mahomes?

 

Stay with me here -  I am not everyone-    talk to others about this. Allen hasn’t been perfect-  I’ve said it for years. You and I are discussing supporting casts- again-  stay with me here……who’s had the better supporting casts, Allen or Mahomes?

Like I’ve said, it varies.
 

Mahomes had a solid advantage for a few years (but during the years that Allen wasn’t the QB he is now), a couple years were a wash, and the last few years I’d say Allen had the advantage. ‘22 for sure. Multiple sources ranked the Bills’ ‘22 roster #1 in the NFL. And PFF has rated several of their rosters as comparable or better than KC’s.

Unbiased analysts don’t agree with you.

[Simon]

1 minute ago, SaulGoodman said:

Like I’ve said, it varies.
 

Mahomes had a solid advantage for a few years (but during the years that Allen wasn’t the QB he is now), a couple years were a wash, and the last few years I’d say Allen had the advantage. ‘22 for sure. Multiple sources ranked the Bills’ ‘22 roster #1 in the NFL. And PFF has rated several of their rosters as comparable or better than KC’s.

Unbiased analysts don’t agree with you.

 

You should probably stop operating under the assumption that the Bills roster at the end of the year was anywhere near as good as it was at the beginning for the last two years.

[SaulGoodman]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

You’re so butt hurt because some Bills fans (and some non bills fans) think Josh is Mahomes equal in terms of play on the field.  
 

All my chiefs fans friends (and I have several die hard KC friends) love Josh. They hate playing him, but most  of them say he’s the most exciting player they’ve ever seen.  They know he’s going to get a Super Bowl eventually.  
 

Mahomes is in the goat talk.  Be happy-  and enjoy the runs. Why even waste your time on an opposing teams website crying about Bills fans loving their QB?  Don’t let your insecurities raise your blood pressure so much.  Life’s too short and you have an all time franchise to root for. 

Not sure how stating opinions makes someone “butthurt.” I’d say that’s a better description for the posters responding to my takes. 
 

[SaulGoodman]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

You should probably stop operating under the assumption that the Bills roster at the end of the year was anywhere near as good as it was at the beginning for the last two years.

And people should stop pretending that Mahomes has consistently had everything a QB could want, when that’s far from the case. 
 

In the ‘22 AFCC, he was throwing to MVS, Skyy Moore and a practice squad guy, while hobbled with a high ankle sprain. The defense was average at best. It would be very hard for a rational person to argue he was in a better situation than Allen. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

37 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

And people should stop pretending that Mahomes has consistently had everything a QB could want, when that’s far from the case. 
 

In the ‘22 AFCC, he was throwing to MVS, Skyy Moore and a practice squad guy, while hobbled with a high ankle sprain. The defense was average at best. It would be very hard for a rational person to argue he was in a better situation than Allen. 

He had the GOAT TE that routinely plays his best in the post season. Allen had Diggs a former all pro WR who never plays his best in the post season.

 

[AZSanta]

3 Super Bowls to none so no

[SaulGoodman]

25 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

He had the GOAT TE that routinely plays his best in the post season. Allen had Diggs a former all pro WR who never plays his best in the post season.

 

Kelce had a big game vs Baltimore in the AFCC, but he’s clearly been declining the last few years. 

[Success]

33 minutes ago, AZSanta said:

3 Super Bowls to none so no

 

It's not tennis.

 

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

And people should stop pretending that Mahomes has consistently had everything a QB could want, when that’s far from the case. 
 

In the ‘22 AFCC, he was throwing to MVS, Skyy Moore and a practice squad guy, while hobbled with a high ankle sprain. The defense was average at best. It would be very hard for a rational person to argue he was in a better situation than Allen. 

 

Mahomes has inarguably had much better coaching, and more well-constructed teams.  

 

Allen had a great defense last year - until over half of it was injured heading into the KC game.

 

I don't think Mahomes has a ring if Buffalo drafted him. I think Allen probably has at least 3 if he's w/ the Chiefs.

 

Edited September 29 by Success

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

Not sure how stating opinions makes someone “butthurt.” I’d say that’s a better description for the posters responding to my takes. 
 

You are OBVIOUSLY butt hurt.  The Josh Allen love hurts you like an 🍆 kid.  Better learn to love it. 

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

Like I’ve said, it varies.
 

Mahomes had a solid advantage for a few years (but during the years that Allen wasn’t the QB he is now), a couple years were a wash, and the last few years I’d say Allen had the advantage. ‘22 for sure. Multiple sources ranked the Bills’ ‘22 roster #1 in the NFL. And PFF has rated several of their rosters as comparable or better than KC’s.

Unbiased analysts don’t agree with you.

You’re acting as if the rosters that the Bills start the season with are the same rosters that they play Mahomes with in the playoffs.  When healthy, we handle business in the regular season.  Injuries hit and the team is lesser.  You guys have suffered minimal injuries during your run.  The season that injuries hit you on the OL, Mahomes and Co got embarrassed in the Super Bowl.  
 

I’m done wasting my time with you-  carry on and put something on that rash

 

 

[Neo]

35 minutes ago, AZSanta said:

3 Super Bowls to none so no

I need your help.   I’m getting a petition together to remove Dan Marino and Jim Kelly from the hall of fame in order to replace them with Trent Dilfer and Jim Plunkett.   I’m going to need cash to take our arguement viral.  DM me for my venmo.

[AZSanta]

8 minutes ago, Neo said:

I need your help.   I’m getting a petition together to remove Dan Marino and Jim Kelly from the hall of fame in order to replace them with Trent Dilfer and Jim Plunkett.   I’m going to need cash to take our arguement viral.  DM me for my venmo.

You can chose to look at it with satirical humor but in reality if you really believe that Allen is better Mahommes you don't watch enough Chiefs games. Allen will be in  the HOF without a doubt. This is Allen's first season without the bonehead throws and turnovers. The season is only 3 weeks old and you want to anoint Allen the best QB in the league is laughable. I am a diehard Bills fan and I love that we have Allen but he is not ahead of Mahommes at this point in both their careers. 

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, AZSanta said:

You can chose to look at it with satirical humor but in reality if you really believe that Allen is better Mahommes you don't watch enough Chiefs games. Allen will be in  the HOF without a doubt. This is Allen's first season without the bonehead throws and turnovers. The season is only 3 weeks old and you want to anoint Allen the best QB in the league is laughable. I am a diehard Bills fan and I love that we have Allen but he is not ahead of Mahommes at this point in both their careers. 

Josh Allen has been consistently getting better since he entered the NFL 

 

Patrick mahomes has plateaued 

 

Josh's arrow has been up and keeps pointing up Patrick mahomes is arrow is no longer pointing up 

 

Yes it's a very valid question because super bowls is a team stat.. Josh Allen is eclipsing Patrick mahomes