Xavier Worthy: So far, not much more than a gadget guy

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

As I've said Kirby, the mistake cannot be boiled down to a single decision made 9 months ago. The mistake was to never make it a point to prioritize the WR room after 2020. It was a series of repeated mistakes that got us where we are today. From 2021-2024, Beane drafted exactly 1 WR on day one or two. That's unconscionable with Allen as the QB. It led us to a point where they were backed into a corner and absolutely had to draft a WR last year regardless of what their BPA board looked like. I can give Beane some grace for individual evaluation failures because every GM has those on his resume, but I can't forgive him for overarching philosophical mistakes that span multiple years. Here we are again backed into a corner with only 3 WRs on the roster heading into 2025 and once again he will need to draft one relatively high no matter what.

 

We are definitely in agreement here. You and I are generally in agreement but have differed on Coleman. With that desperate need, I didn’t think a project was a good idea. The needed a higher floor. Both Worthy and obviously McConkey checked that box. Beane loves to chase a high ceiling but I didn’t believe that he had that luxury last draft.

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

You can say that, and you have a fair point but the other point is that WR would still be glaring need in 2025 even if we had pulled the trigger on a BTJ trade, but we would all feel much better about the WR group in general.

 

Sure but one draft decision shouldn't make or break the entire room. KC drafting Mecole Hardman followed by Skyy Moore didn't make any difference because they just kept investing resources into the position until they got a couple hits.

[Buffalo716]

16 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That has been one of my thoughts too (although @GunnerBill doesn’t love him). 

Why not just answer the question? Which player is better right now? 

He is a dynamic athlete with natural hands .. he has experience with rpos and bubble screens with great yards after catch

 

He has a good vertical leap and can get deep too and plays with great pace

 

If he matched his sophomore year stats he would go top 10 but he still is one of the best playmakers in the draft

 

He also has a very good build

Edited 7 hours ago by Buffalo716

[ColoradoBills]

15 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Which player is better right now? 

 

Worthy had a better season.

They are both rookies.  Let's slow the roll until next year.  I wonder what you will think if Worthy is injured.  He is tiny and might not hold up.

Will you go with stats then?

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

As I've said Kirby, the mistake cannot be boiled down to a single decision made 9 months ago. The mistake was to never make it a point to prioritize the WR room after 2020. It was a series of repeated mistakes that got us where we are today. From 2021-2024, Beane drafted exactly 1 WR on day one or two. That's unconscionable with Allen as the QB. It led us to a point where they were backed into a corner and absolutely had to draft a WR last year regardless of what their BPA board looked like. I can give Beane some grace for individual evaluation failures because every GM has those on his resume, but I can't forgive him for overarching philosophical mistakes that span multiple years. Here we are again backed into a corner with only 3 WRs on the roster heading into 2025 and once again he will need to draft one relatively high no matter what.

 

 

Yea. It was a mistake. But it is never one mistake. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure but one draft decision shouldn't make or break the entire room. KC drafting Mecole Hardman followed by Skyy Moore didn't make any difference because they just kept investing resources into the position until they got a couple hits.

KC’s WR room was so bad post Hill they had to trade for Toney and Hopkins.

 
Huh?

 

Are we still talking about the same team lol

[Kirby Jackson]

44 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Fine. Worthy is better right now but I'm not disappointed with Keon as some are on this board. Did he come in as a rookie and be the alpha #1 we all wanted? No but he did display some better speed than I expected based on predraft process. He also showed playmaking ability when given a chance in space. Again I liken him to a Muhsin Mohammed. 

Appreciate you answering the question. To be clear, I’m not saying Coleman has no chance. He actually has some skills with the ball in the air and the ball in his hands. I’m saying that it was a dumb pick because the Bills needed an immediate contributor. I blame them more than him. He has some upside but I think it’s as a contributor not a focal point. In, arguably, the best WR draft ever, it sucks when that was your biggest need and you traded down twice for a role player. That’s a poor job by the Beane and co. Let’s hope that he develops into more than a 3rd or 4th receiver. 

36 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Worthy had a better season.

They are both rookies.  Let's slow the roll until next year.  I wonder what you will think if Worthy is injured.  He is tiny and might not hold up.

Will you go with stats then?

Lol, that’s my least favorite argument. The “wait until he gets hurt” argument. Worthy played every game this year I think and Coleman missed a month and a half. Why should we assume that Worthy is more likely to be injured? That’s a stupid assumption and an incredibly weak argument.  

Edited 6 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

He is a dynamic athlete with natural hands .. he has experience with rpos and bubble screens with great yards after catch

 

He has a good vertical leap and can get deep too and plays with great pace

 

If he matched his sophomore year stats he would go top 10 but he still is one of the best playmakers in the draft

 

He also has a very good build

I am on board. He was a crazy high recruit too. That reminds me of Diggs a little bit. 

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, that’s my least favorite argument. The “wait until he gets hurt” argument. Worthy played every game this year I think and Coleman missed a month and a half. Why should we assume that Worthy is more likely to be injured? That’s a stupid assumption and an I credibly weak argument.  

 

You are missing my point entirely.  Coleman WAS hurt.  Worthy had a better season staying healthy.

IF that was reversed next season, would YOU be willing to say Coleman had a better season.

 

I bet you wouldn't.  Also, your last sentence was uncalled for, I have had enough of your comments.

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

KC’s WR room was so bad post Hill they had to trade for Toney and Hopkins.

 
Huh?

 

Are we still talking about the same team lol

 

They kept using draft picks and got a big hit in Rice and a possible hit in Worthy. That's what we need to do. Last offseason I figured we were at least two WRs away - one separator, one physical WR. So this year I hope we go for the separator. And then follow the Pittsburgh (and now KC) model of drafting one every single year on day one or two.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I am on board. He was a crazy high recruit too. That reminds me of Diggs a little bit. 

He's also solidly built over 200 pounds 

 

He's a dynamite tracker of the ball as well.. if he was 6'1 -6'2 he would be a top 5 pick .. he still might go in the top 15-20

 

But like some smaller big time receivers like AB and Odell before the injuries .. he plays well above his size 

 

Missouri is a really good not great college.. and they used him like a school who just got their highest recruit ever.. just get him the ball typically quick and let the best athlete do his thing 

 

But his game has a lot more refinement than just that and he can do a lot more the next level.. type of receiver who will be a better pro than college guy because he actually has a route tree downfield and some juice

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They kept using draft picks and got a big hit in Rice and a possible hit in Worthy. That's what we need to do. Last offseason I figured we were at least two WRs away - one separator, one physical WR. So this year I hope we go for the separator. And then follow the Pittsburgh (and now KC) model of drafting one every single year on day one or two.

Yes philosophically the chiefs are playing chess to our checkers when it comes to WR.

 

I guess my point was that good vs bad process doesn’t matter as much if you get the right guy.  
 

it’s the ultimate make-up. If Beane had nailed BTJ instead of Coleman or Worthy or whoever, it erases what, 2 years of WR mistakes? It honestly does. 

[90sBills]

24 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Worthy had a better season.

They are both rookies.  Let's slow the roll until next year.  I wonder what you will think if Worthy is injured.  He is tiny and might not hold up.

Will you go with stats then?

I think both will be decent pros. But your argument in the bolded part is always brought up when discussing Worthy. It’s ironic that it’s used as a negative for the guy that has played healthy all year and a positive for a guy that actually missed time due to an injury. Just an observation. Maybe everyone can take a step back on that point with Worthy. 

[Kirby Jackson]

23 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

You are missing my point entirely.  Coleman WAS hurt.  Worthy had a better season staying healthy.

IF that was reversed next season, would YOU be willing to say Coleman had a better season.

 

I bet you wouldn't.  Also, your last sentence was uncalled for, I have had enough of your comments.

Sorry that you didn’t like saying “wait until he gets hurt” is a weak argument. Waiting until anyone gets hurt is a weak argument. Let’s just look at the resume of when they played. The comparison that I provided was the way that they ended the season. One of them flourished and appeared to be blossoming into a star. The other came back and struggled catching 10 of his last 29 targets. I’m not going to live in the hypothetical world of, “yeah but if he gets hurt and doesn’t play the other guy will be better.” That is dumb. Let’s look at what they did while playing.  When they were both healthy, Worthy was a much better player.

Edited 6 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yes philosophically the chiefs are playing chess to our checkers when it comes to WR.

 

I guess my point was that good vs bad process doesn’t matter as much if you get the right guy.  
 

it’s the ultimate make-up. If Beane had nailed BTJ instead of Coleman or Worthy or whoever, it erases what, 2 years of WR mistakes? It honestly does. 

 

Honestly I think even if we had BTJ it would still be a need right now. I was banging the drum to draft a WR high even when we had Diggs and Davis in their prime. Credit to Philly's DL but Brown and Smith being their top 2 WRs helped them build an insurmountable lead before KC could even catch their breath. That's what I want. Coleman for me was just the start of the WR infusion even if he immediately hit his ceiling. The fact that he very well could be a bust just increases the pressure.

[Kirby Jackson]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

He's also solidly built over 200 pounds 

 

He's a dynamite tracker of the ball as well.. if he was 6'1 -6'2 he would be a top 5 pick .. he still might go in the top 15-20

 

But like some smaller big time receivers like AB and Odell before the injuries .. he plays well above his size 

 

Missouri is a really good not great college.. and they used him like a school who just got their highest recruit ever.. just get him the ball typically quick and let the best athlete do his thing 

 

But his game has a lot more refinement than just that and he can do a lot more the next level.. type of receiver who will be a better pro than college guy because he actually has a route tree downfield and some juice

Burden feels like a guy with a very high floor and a high ceiling. There’s virtually no chance of him busting (even if that means he has to play primarily from the slot).  

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

As I've said Kirby, the mistake cannot be boiled down to a single decision made 9 months ago. The mistake was to never make it a point to prioritize the WR room after 2020. It was a series of repeated mistakes that got us where we are today. From 2021-2024, Beane drafted exactly 1 WR on day one or two. That's unconscionable with Allen as the QB. It led us to a point where they were backed into a corner and absolutely had to draft a WR last year regardless of what their BPA board looked like. I can give Beane some grace for individual evaluation failures because every GM has those on his resume, but I can't forgive him for overarching philosophical mistakes that span multiple years. Here we are again backed into a corner with only 3 WRs on the roster heading into 2025 and once again he will need to draft one relatively high no matter what.

 

You can’t forgive Beane for delivering the 16th greatest offense in NFL history, Allen’s first MVP, multiple NFL offensive records as a team and individual all in 2024?  You can’t forgive Beane for putting together the highest scoring team in the entire NFL over the past 5 seasons?

 

Meanwhile you seem cool with 33 PPG our defense has surrendered (worst in NFL all time) in our 5 playoff losses the past 5 years because you never ever advocate for getting better there and instead insist our highest scoring offense is the problem.  
 

I honestly cannot fathom how you can think the issue is the offense and not the defense.

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You can’t forgive Beane for delivering the 16th greatest offense in NFL history, Allen’s first MVP, multiple NFL offensive records as a team and individual all in 2024?  You can’t forgive Beane for putting together the highest scoring team in the entire NFL over the past 5 seasons?

 

Well Alpha the offense as put together by Beane has had two consecutive chances with the ball in their hands to get past the Chiefs and fell short both times. And now we have just 3 WRs on the roster with zero that can definitely be trusted outside. The half measures and the bandaids aren't getting it done. Last year was a great year to need WRs and he didn't capitalize. This year is a crappy year to need WRs and we're backed into a corner, again. Absolutely that all falls on Beane.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

With that desperate need, I didn’t think a project was a good idea. The needed a higher floor.

 

So my take on this is you should never throw out the rules. Every year you should be drafting BPA with a high ceiling in round 1. I never want us to constrain ourselves to a specific immediate outcome because of an immediate need.

 

But I say all of this as somewhat of a hypocrite because I was leading the "WR or bust" charge last year. So I get where you're coming from. It's just sad that because Beane has mismanaged the position so poorly, we got to a spot last year where it was a totally defensible opinion that we should draft a high floor player at a specific position. That should never be the goal. Coleman had the unenviable position of having to come in and be the savior for the room from day one. That was never realistic and Beane is to blame for the fans' expectations.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

So my take on this is you should never throw out the rules. Every year you should be drafting BPA with a high ceiling in round 1. I never want us to constrain ourselves to a specific immediate outcome because of an immediate need.

 

But I say all of this as somewhat of a hypocrite because I was leading the "WR or bust" charge last year. So I get where you're coming from. It's just sad that because Beane has mismanaged the position so poorly, we got to a spot last year where it was a totally defensible opinion that we should draft a high floor player at a specific position. That should never be the goal. Coleman had the unenviable position of having to come in and be the savior for the room from day one. That was never realistic and Beane is to blame for the fans' expectations.

That’s fair and I’m a bit of a hypocrite on this as well. I’m always a high ceiling guy and banged the drum for WR. As you know, I wasn’t a Coleman guy. In large part, I didn’t think that his ceiling was that high because of his lack of separation. I would have went “safer” with McConkey or Worthy. I also liked guys like Javon Baker and Ricky Pearsall who didn’t do much last year. Lol, Baker caught 1 ball all year. They should have taken multiple guys at the position either way. The WR position has been woefully mismanaged/neglected.