Xavier Worthy: So far, not much more than a gadget guy

[Kirby Jackson]

16 hours ago, JohnNord said:

They also just signed Samuel at the time too.  That’s my problem with how the WR room was constructed.  Too many duplicate skillsets 

I don’t disagree there. The biggest issue with the WR room is that they didn’t care about the most important quality. Separation is the most important quality in a WR. Can you get open? Can you find space? If the answer is yes, Josh Allen can get the ball to you. That wasn’t the case so Josh had to force balls to him like that fade the other day. They need a surgeon running routes. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:23 PM by Kirby Jackson

[EmotionallyUnstable]

1 minute ago, JohnNord said:

They also just signed Samuel at the time too.  That’s my problem with how the WR room was constructed.  Too many duplicate skillsets 

I think this was a bit by design. 
 

Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid…these guys are all movers in their own respect. The problem was when the middle of the field is closed off, we have no bodies who can win on the boundary.

 

Remember the days of 17 to 14 when those 8-14 yard hitches and comebacks just seemed like pitch and catch? We haven’t seen a single route like that all year. 
 

Losing Diggs might not have hurt statistically, but I think it was felt on the field much more than people wanted to let on.

 

Coleman is not that guy IMO. I’ve seen nothing this season that makes me (or any defense for that matter) feel like they’d need to either respect his downfield game, and he hasn’t the nuance or athleticism to win off the LOS. 

 

I think Beane was hoping for a Tee Higgins like pick here, and so far he is not even in the same realm. 

[The Jokeman]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t disagree there. The biggest issue with the WR room is that they didn’t care about the most important quality. Separation is the most importabt quality in a WR. Can you get open? Can you find space? If the answer is yes, Josh Allen can get the ball to you. That wasn’t the case so Josh had to force balls to him like that fade the other day. They need a surgeon running routes. 

We had great separators in Beasley and Diggs. They weren't good enough either. Kincaid showed separation skills as a rookie. Truth is our offense is the least of our problems. Coleman has enough short area quickness that can be schemed open. Making him catch bombs is a mistake.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, The Jokeman said:

We had great separators in Beasley and Diggs. They weren't good enough either. Kincaid showed separation skills as a rookie. Truth is our offense is the least of our problems. Coleman has enough short area quickness that can be schemed open. Making him catch bombs is a mistake.

Beasley and Diggs were all-pros as Bills. Coleman’s future is a role player. He is a slot WR playing outside. He can’t get open from there and this isn’t new. That’s how you end up catching 1/2 of the targets. Every ball is contested.

 

They had different issues then (play calling, OL, pass rush, coaching). Our offense is ahead of the defense but not good enough. The biggest impact that the Bills can make this offseason is an alpha WR and an elite pass rusher. The Bills need better talent at the most important positions (excluding QB & LT). 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

KC is playing chess.. and I don't know what we're playing.

I heard Candyland…

[Lost]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The biggest impact that the Bills can make this offseason is an alpha WR and an elite pass rusher. The Bills need better talent at the most important positions (excluding QB & LT). 

 

Watch Beane bring in someone like Dionte Johnson this offseason and act like he upgraded the WR room.

[zow2]

24 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Yeah I’m not upset they didn’t pick Worthy but it’s pretty clear that McConkey should have been the pick.   I didn’t follow Coleman closely enough to know how’d he do in the NFL.  But so far he’s as advertised and I’d agree he’ll probably never be starting caliber.

 

How about moving him into the slot?

 

Im in this camp.  I wasn’t enamored with Worthy.  I really wanted them to trade up for Brian Thomas Jr.  I’m all over the draft threads that night.  But once they didn’t, and then made the trade with KC, i was all in on McConkey.  So i can’t kill the Bills for not drafting Worthy, it hurt Sunday night but whatever.  Coleman over McConkey, in hindsight, is rough.  

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Hold up... 

1 season, less than 38 yards a game average as basically their starting WR in an offense where there are multiple options. Worthy got just over 10 ypr

 

Your point on McDuffie is right, worthy not yet.

 

Coleman got 42+ yards a game in a system that passes to everyone, in games he was seldom used with 29 receptions at that. @ 19.2 ypr

The season average is misleading for rookies. Worthy got better as the season progressed and had his best game in the most important game so far. That’s a better indicator. Coleman got worse. Let’s hope the kid takes a big jump next season. 

[BCAS Baritone]

I think the Bills FO looked at 2024 as a rebuilding year.  They drafted Coleman hoping he would grow into the role.  Separation is a skill that can be learned.  Coleman does have great body control, which is something that should be able to translate into doing the little things to shake off a player.  Now he still has to learn that skill, and obviously hasn't mastered it yet.

 

Davante Adams couldn't separate much early in his career either.  At some point (I think it was after year 2) he decided he was going to buckle down and learn it, and he did.

 

Lots of guys MIGHT be able to learn how to separate, but only some of them do. Just like lots of big strong armed guys with accuracy problems MIGHT learn how to be more accurate.  Josh Allen did learn it, but not in his rookie year.  Wil Levis has not learned it, and neither has Anthony Richardson.

 

The potential is there for Coleman.  But he has not realized it yet.

[Alphadawg7]

I find it interesting that everyone seem to blame WR's, Worthy trade, etc for our short comings.  

 

Meanwhile:

 

#1 offense in the AFC and 2nd in the NFL only to Detroit who the 2024 Lions were the 4th best offense in NFL history.  

Offense set or tied a number of NFL records such as least negative plays, most wins by 20+ points, etc.  

Allen set numerous individual records.

The Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the past 5 seasons.  

 

But...offense is the issue for so many of you?  Meanwhile, the last team to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs were the Bengals, who only did so by holding Mahomes to 3 points in the 2nd half...a week after the Bills gave up 17 points to the Chiefs in the final 3 minutes of that game where they scored 42.  Bills just this Sunday scored 29 points against a tough defense and a team that offensively had not scored 30 the whole season...yet we gave up 32 to them and lost because of it.  

 

Oh and the team before the Bengals to beat the Chiefs...Bucs in the Super Bowl where the defense dominated Mahomes and the Chiefs offense.  

 

If you need to field the greatest offense in NFL history to get to the SB, then that is a dead a** sign that there are BIGGER issues with your team.  And even having one of the greatest offenses in history has done very little for other teams.  Only 2 of the top 10 offenses in history even won a SB, several didn't even reach one.  

• #1 offense - 2013 Broncos over took the 2007 Pats as the best offense in history and got blown out in the SB by the legion of boom and a run first Seattle offense.
• #2 offense - 2007 Pats were the then greatest offense in history and got shut down by a team with a mediocre offense but elite D-Line in the SB.
• #3 offense - 2018 Chiefs was Mahomes best statistical season ever and doesn't even make the SB.  
• #4 offense - 2024 Lions didn't even make the SB.  

The only 2 in the top 10 all time to win a SB were the 2011 Packers (5th all time) and the 1983 Redskins (8th all time).  

 

We are, and have been, an elite offense...our achilles heal is our defense has no difference makers, no closers, no one to disrupt the greatness of the Chiefs and Mahomes.  The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.  Meanwhile, the Chiefs with a mediocre cast around Mahomes on the offense the past 3 years are now playing for NFL history and a 3rd straight Super Bowl.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

Watch Beane bring in someone like Dionte Johnson this offseason and act like he upgraded the WR room.

I was on board with Johnson earlier this year because I thought he could get open. He’s a disaster as a person and they need to stay away. 
 

The Bills were so concerned with how many targets that Diggs had that they overcorrected with “everybody eats.” Once they traded for Cooper they should have made a point to give him at least 6 targets a game. He’s capable of dominating games. They didn’t and the whole situation didn’t fix the problem. If they address the top of the depth chart next year they need to prioritize getting the ball to their best. It doesn’t have to be forced like it was to Diggs but you need to throw the ball to your best players more often than you throw it to your lesser players.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I find it interesting that everyone seem to blame WR's, Worthy trade, etc for our short comings.  

 

Meanwhile:

 

#1 offense in the AFC and 2nd in the NFL only to Detroit who the 2024 Lions were the 4th best offense in NFL history.  

Offense set or tied a number of NFL records such as least negative plays, most wins by 20+ points, etc.  

Allen set numerous individual records.

The Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the past 5 seasons.  

 

But...offense is the issue for so many of you?  Meanwhile, the last team to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs were the Bengals, who only did so by holding Mahomes to 3 points in the 2nd half...a week after the Bills gave up 17 points to the Chiefs in the final 3 minutes of that game where they scored 42.  Bills just this Sunday scored 29 points against a tough defense and a team that offensively had not scored 30 the whole season...yet we gave up 32 to them and lost because of it.  

 

Oh and the team before the Bengals to beat the Chiefs...Bucs in the Super Bowl where the defense dominated Mahomes and the Chiefs offense.  

 

If you need to field the greatest offense in NFL history to get to the SB, then that is a dead a** sign that there are BIGGER issues with your team.  And even having one of the greatest offenses in history has done very little for other teams.  Only 2 of the top 10 offenses in history even won a SB, several didn't even reach one.  

• #1 offense - 2013 Broncos over took the 2007 Pats as the best offense in history and got blown out in the SB by the legion of boom and a run first Seattle offense.
• #2 offense - 2007 Pats were the then greatest offense in history and got shut down by a team with a mediocre offense but elite D-Line in the SB.
• #3 offense - 2018 Chiefs was Mahomes best statistical season ever and doesn't even make the SB.  
• #4 offense - 2024 Lions didn't even make the SB.  

The only 2 in the top 10 all time to win a SB were the 2011 Packers (5th all time) and the 1983 Redskins (8th all time).  

 

We are, and have been, an elite offense...our achilles heal is our defense has no difference makers, no closers, no one to disrupt the greatness of the Chiefs and Mahomes.  The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.  Meanwhile, the Chiefs with a mediocre cast around Mahomes on the offense the past 3 years are now playing for NFL history and a 3rd straight Super Bowl.

I don’t think the question is, “what is a bigger problem offense or defense?” The question is, “what is the quickest way to close the gap with KC?” The 2 most impactful moves are an alpha WR & an elite pass rusher. Adding a good safety or run stuffing DT doesn’t make the impact of those other moves (hence the contracts those positions get). This thread is about a guy that could have potentially closed that gap by making timely, explosive plays. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I find it interesting that everyone seem to blame WR's, Worthy trade, etc for our short comings.  

 

Meanwhile:

 

#1 offense in the AFC and 2nd in the NFL only to Detroit who the 2024 Lions were the 4th best offense in NFL history.  

Offense set or tied a number of NFL records such as least negative plays, most wins by 20+ points, etc.  

Allen set numerous individual records.

The Bills have scored the most points in the NFL over the past 5 seasons.  

 

But...offense is the issue for so many of you?  Meanwhile, the last team to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs were the Bengals, who only did so by holding Mahomes to 3 points in the 2nd half...a week after the Bills gave up 17 points to the Chiefs in the final 3 minutes of that game where they scored 42.  Bills just this Sunday scored 29 points against a tough defense and a team that offensively had not scored 30 the whole season...yet we gave up 32 to them and lost because of it.  

 

Oh and the team before the Bengals to beat the Chiefs...Bucs in the Super Bowl where the defense dominated Mahomes and the Chiefs offense.  

 

If you need to field the greatest offense in NFL history to get to the SB, then that is a dead a** sign that there are BIGGER issues with your team.  And even having one of the greatest offenses in history has done very little for other teams.  Only 2 of the top 10 offenses in history even won a SB, several didn't even reach one.  

• #1 offense - 2013 Broncos over took the 2007 Pats as the best offense in history and got blown out in the SB by the legion of boom and a run first Seattle offense.
• #2 offense - 2007 Pats were the then greatest offense in history and got shut down by a team with a mediocre offense but elite D-Line in the SB.
• #3 offense - 2018 Chiefs was Mahomes best statistical season ever and doesn't even make the SB.  
• #4 offense - 2024 Lions didn't even make the SB.  

The only 2 in the top 10 all time to win a SB were the 2011 Packers (5th all time) and the 1983 Redskins (8th all time).  

 

We are, and have been, an elite offense...our achilles heal is our defense has no difference makers, no closers, no one to disrupt the greatness of the Chiefs and Mahomes.  The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.  Meanwhile, the Chiefs with a mediocre cast around Mahomes on the offense the past 3 years are now playing for NFL history and a 3rd straight Super Bowl.

Counterpoint:

 

two years in a row Josh Allen had the ball in his hand with 3 min left down 3 vs the Chiefs and scored 0 points.

 

Also very odd point to reference our #1 offense and then reference all the top 10 offenses that didn’t win Superbowls. Maybe our offense was too good to win this year? 

[SirAndrew]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

Counterpoint:

 

two years in a row Josh Allen had the ball in his hand with 3 min left down 3 vs the Chiefs and scored 0 points.

 

Also very odd point to reference our #1 offense and then reference all the top 10 offenses that didn’t win Superbowls. Maybe our offense was too good to win this year? 

Josh definitely deserves some blame, but I think there’s a reason we have zero points in those situations against the Chiefs. We hinder ourselves not letting Josh be Josh. In both three minute situations, the OC called plays based on running the clock. We never fully unleashed the offense because we wanted to score with no time left. That’s a tough game to play. It seems like we don’t want McD’s precious defense to be the reason we lose on a final possession. 

[boyst]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

Counterpoint:

 

two years in a row Josh Allen had the ball in his hand with 3 min left down 3 vs the Chiefs and scored 0 points.

 

Also very odd point to reference our #1 offense and then reference all the top 10 offenses that didn’t win Superbowls. Maybe our offense was too good to win this year? 

This.

Plus, defense wins championships. Offense wins you the regular season, coaching and defense win in the playoffs. 

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, Lost said:

 

Watch Beane bring in someone like Dionte Johnson this every offseason and act like he upgraded the WR room.

 

more like this...

 

[The Jokeman]

15 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I was on board with Johnson earlier this year because I thought he could get open. He’s a disaster as a person and they need to stay away. 
 

The Bills were so concerned with how many targets that Diggs had that they overcorrected with “everybody eats.” Once they traded for Cooper they should have made a point to give him at least 6 targets a game. He’s capable of dominating games. They didn’t and the whole situation didn’t fix the problem. If they address the top of the depth chart next year they need to prioritize getting the ball to their best. It doesn’t have to be forced like it was to Diggs but you need to throw the ball to your best players more often than you throw it to your lesser players.

I think Cooper wasn't completely healed and might be way we used him sparingly. Or some personal stuff that won't come out was going on. 

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I think Cooper wasn't completely healed and might be way we used him sparingly. Or some personal stuff that won't come out was going on. 

You are probably right. The situation was weird. It was a little like Samuel earlier in the year. I’m absolutely open to Cooper returning but I want him to play if that’s the case. If you use that 6 targets a game that I threw out there, it’s 102 targets on the year. Maybe he catches 70 of them, at an average of 14 YPR, and you are looking at a 1,000 yard(ish) WR. That’s not a stretch. 

[Mr. WEO]

not a gadget guy after all.....

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

not a gadget guy after all.....

 

Unless that gadget is some kind of button that allows you to get catches when you didn't catch the ball.