Tua’s Broken Dome (now being placed on IR-out at least 4 games)

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

So now we're going in circles again... people repeating stuff that's already been written in this topic.

 

Par for the course.

 

 

I see storm clouds on the horizon.

 

People keep saying "it's Tua's decision" but (and I'm not a doctor or a lawyer) I believe there's a scenario whereby the NFL and/or the Dolphins do not clear him to play. Either way it'll be a field day for the lawyers.

 

 

He's already made $73 million in his career. Also there's the possibility of a settlement. If Tua wants to maximize his earnings without playing he would act as if it's his intention to play. That is the smart move so that his buyout in a settlement would be higher.

 

 

This misses the point. Even the experts are disagreeing over this because brain injuries are not an exact science.

 

 

Thank you. You are correct.

 

 

This was also addressed upthread. There are different severities. Tua has twice exhibited a "fencing response." He was concussed very badly and then re-entered the same game. Then he played and was concussed 4 days later. This is likely VERY different from what Morse went through.

 

 

Agreed. At some point the league and/or the team has to start shedding liability in the event Tua is killed on the field or spends the rest of his life with a colostomy bag attached to his jaw.

 

 

Exactly. Several have brought up Morse as if his situation is equivalent.

 

AGAIN, look at the video of Tua's concussions... 

 

 

 

 

 

My favorite thing about that video is Al Michaels saying "Wrenching that back, which was the issue last week." It could be used as a definition for the overused term "gaslighting." 

[Sierra Foothills]

Just now, Low Positive said:

My favorite thing about that video is Al Michaels saying "Wrenching that back, which was the issue last week." It could be used as a definition for the overused term "gaslighting." 

 

Yeah, Michael's touting "the company line" was disappointing.

 

He's either propping up his paycheck or he's very naive and he's way too old to be naive.

 

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, phypon said:

Of course it's possible.  That's my point.  If Tua fails a physical, he can't play.  It's happened before, there is precedent for that.

 

It won't be as easy for the medical staff to clear him as it would be to pointing to a neck injury on an MRI..

 

16 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

A lot of people here said Morris should probably retire.

 

not really, no

 

16 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

I'm not a doctor or a lawyer and it wouldn't matter if I was because brain trauma is an inexact science and the proof is that you have (and have had) legal and medical "experts" contradicting each other throughout the Tua saga.

 

Purely from the standpoint of my life experience, any modicum of common sense I've accrued and what my own eyes tell me, I believe that it was a bad decision for Tua to continue playing after his previous concussion. I hope he doesn't live to regret it.

 

 

It would be difficult for anyone other than Tua to end his career but here's a question... is there a scenario where one or more of the stakeholders take the position that he can no longer play in the NFL?

 

 

 

Firstly Tua gets crapped on because he's half the QB that Josh is and he makes a lot more money. Secondly you're making the case that the Morse, Hyde, and Tua situations are equivalent but they're not because of the matter of degree.

 

I don't remember Morse or Hyde having the "fencing response" even once. I don't remember either of them being ragdolled in a way which made even jaded old football fans cringe. 

 

 

 

Just writing off the cuff, here are the stakeholders and their various possible positions with most likely (IMO) first:

 

Tua: 1) Wants to continue playing 2) Doesn't want to continue playing

Tua's Family: (see above)

NFL: 1) The NFL probably doesn't want him to come back due to concerns about their own liability if he suffers another brain injury 2) If he chooses to resume his career they don't want to stand in his way due to concerns about their own liability in blocking his return

NFLPA: 1) They don't want to endorse his comeback due to concerns about their own liability if he suffers another brain injury 2) If he chooses to resume his career they want him to come back because they believe that the decision should rest solely in the hands of the player

The Dolphins: 1) They don't want him to come back because they want to minimize any remaining financial obligations and they know he is damaged goods and even were he undamaged they know he is not good enough to win a championship 2) They want him to come back because they don't have a better option at QB

 

So minimally you have 5 different stakeholders and each having a plausible reason to feel 2 different ways.

 

If Tua decided to retire, he would be letting all of these groups off the hook.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear of your brain injuries. If it's any consolation you're an excellent writer and you seem wise and grounded.

 

 

To the bolded and as I said in a different topic, I could not make a blanket statement as to what I would or would not do.

 

For each person it's different but the decision is essentially a cost/benefit anaylysis.

 

$100 million is not the same as $200 million. Migraine headaches are not the same as ALS or CTE. Some people become suicidal, some homicidal. You might not wish that your loved ones are saddled with caring for a severely damaged person, generational wealth or not.

 

And for most people $5 million is generational wealth. Tua has already made over $73 million in his career.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing about "fencing".  But the NFL would say that wasold news--obviously he recovered and has played the rest of '22 and all of '23, just fine.

 

14 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Can't force him to retire, but nobody forced the Dolphins to sign Tua to an extension, either. 

 

That's not part of this discussion.  Why do the Cowboys keep re-signing Dak?  Dumb.  WHy does any team re-sign their QB?  WHy did the Falsons sign seriously injured Cousins?  This isn't a discussion about contracts.

 

What else are they going to do, cut Tua?  Of course not---they are going to pay him. 

 

12 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

I was at the game when Tua was knocked silly and they ended up putting him back in the game.  He clearly had no business being put back into that game and I mainly blame the Dolphins and the medical people on duty at the game.  It was obvious to people at the game watching him wobble off the field that he was severely compromised.  When I heard that he was injured again in another game, I was not surprised.  The severity of that incident finally prompted the changes to the concussion protocol.  It should not have taken that sequence of events to get him off the field.  Teams can't force players into retirement but their medical staffs can refuse to clear players to play.  For me, it isn't about any hate or dislike of a team or player.  It is about the exercise of common sense and doing the right thing.

 

We all saw that.  Then we saw him come back and win games that same season .  The following season he won 11 games and was the top passer in the NFL last year. 

 

Absolutely no one was calling for Tua to retire at any point  last year, even after his "fencing response" early in the previous season.  So it makes no sense for posters here now to reference their response to his 2022 hit when decrying his current injury.  It doesn't follow, logically.

 

12 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Again if you read what I wrote I was not saying anything about forcing a player to quit.

 

What I did say is that the “ league “ aka the owners will insist the Miami owner has his Ducks in a row when inevitably Tua is cleared to play, 

 

Does that clear up my point for you? 

 

 

Not really.  Other owners will not be in the room when/if he is cleared.  These guys do NOT like to tell others how to run their business--unless the others are stealing from them (see Dan Snyder).  The owners hate precedent setting (see Deshawn Watson) especially when it comes to money/contracts/roster making.

 

If Tua is cleared, there is no way for Terry and Jerry to know if the CBA negotiated "ducks" are in a row.  Simply because they absolutely don't want their colleagues nosing their way into future similar decisions they may need to make.

[chongli]

Word on the Miami forum is Tua is only saying he wants to come back so he gets the full amount of his contract. If he voluntarilly retires, he loses it, plus has to return part of his signing bonus.

[Sierra Foothills]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

I'm not disagreeing about "fencing".  But the NFL would say that wasold news--obviously he recovered and has played the rest of '22 and all of '23, just fine.

 

That's not part of this discussion.  Why do the Cowboys keep re-signing Dak?  Dumb.  WHy does any team re-sign their QB?  WHy did the Falsons sign seriously injured Cousins?  This isn't a discussion about contracts.

 

What else are they going to do, cut Tua?  Of course not---they are going to pay him. 

 

We all saw that.  Then we saw him come back and win games that same season .  The following season he won 11 games and was the top passer in the NFL last year. 

 

Absolutely no one was calling for Tua to retire at any point  last year, even after his "fencing response" early in the previous season.  So it makes no sense for posters here now to reference their response to his 2022 hit when decrying his current injury.  It doesn't follow, logically.

 

Not really.  Other owners will not be in the room when/if he is cleared.  These guys do NOT like to tell others how to run their business--unless the others are stealing from them (see Dan Snyder).  The owners hate precedent setting (see Deshawn Watson) especially when it comes to money/contracts/roster making.

 

If Tua is cleared, there is no way for Terry and Jerry to know if the CBA negotiated "ducks" are in a row.  Simply because they absolutely don't want their colleagues nosing their way into future similar decisions they may need to make.

 

Excellent post but Tua did have a 3rd concussion in 2022... in week 15 vs the Packers.

 

 

1 minute ago, chongli said:

Word on the Miami forum is Tua is only saying he wants to come back so he gets the full amount of his contract. If he voluntarilly retires, he loses it, plus has to return part of his signing bonus.

 

Yes, this is what I wrote upthread.

 

He has to at least portray that he wants to come back to maximize his buyout.

 

[Matt_In_NH]

26 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Or they just have common sense…

Think they have common sense 

24 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

This misses the point. Even the experts are disagreeing over this because brain injuries are not an exact science.

Yet people with no training have strong opinions about what someone’s life choices should be.  Right on point. 

[dpberr]

I remain amazed that Miami, to this day, sees no urgency in developing a Plan A-2 - where for the first two months of the season, if Miami has a comfortable lead at half, you sit TT and play the other QB.  

 

Shouldn't call it a Plan B - you know your starting quarterback is fragile, and in every season there's a high risk of needing an above average quarterback to play multiple games of a season.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Excellent post but Tua did have a 3rd concussion in 2022... in week 15 vs the Packers.

 

 

 

Yes, this is what I wrote upthread.

 

He has to at least portray that he wants to come back to maximize his buyout.

 

 

And then he came back and lit it up last year....and no one cared about his concussions the year before any more

[Sierra Foothills]

3 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Think they have common sense 

Yet people with no training have strong opinions about what someone’s life choices should be.  Right on point. 

 

Please spare the snarkiness ("right on point").

 

Matt, watch the video of Tua's 3 concussions and pretend that he's your son and that he's already made $73 million.

 

What would you tell your son?

 

And what's wrong with people having opinions anyways? That's what we do here is opine all day long.

 

Edited September 15 by Sierra Foothills

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, dpberr said:

I remain amazed that Miami, to this day, sees no urgency in developing a Plan A-2 - where for the first two months of the season, if Miami has a comfortable lead at half, you sit TT and play the other QB.  

 

Shouldn't call it a Plan B - you know your starting quarterback is fragile, and in every season there's a high risk of needing an above average quarterback to play multiple games of a season.

 

 

 

"Remain amazed"?  Were you saying this before week 1?  

 

until last Sunday, they didn't really need an "A-2".    Why would they already have this in place?  What team does?

Edited September 15 by Mr. WEO

[Captain Hindsight]

6 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Excellent post but Tua did have a 3rd concussion in 2022... in week 15 vs the Packers.

 

 

 

Yes, this is what I wrote upthread.

 

He has to at least portray that he wants to come back to maximize his buyout.

 

I mean, he may want to play. He’s a competitive dude. 
 

But yes, I’m sure his agent has told him it’s in his best interest to publicly try to return to the field 

[Sierra Foothills]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

And then he came back and lit it up last year....and no one cared about his concussions the year before any more

 

I think that depends on who you ask.

 

There was a flood of dread-filled reactions the other night and it was because of what happened in 2022.

 

Many people cared... they were just hiding their heads in the sand... pardon the expression.

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

I think that depends on who you ask.

 

There was a flood of dread-filled reactions the other night and it was because of what happened in 2022.

 

Many people cared... they were just hiding their heads in the sand... pardon the expression.

 

 

Overwhelmingly, the comments about Tua were that his play didn't warrant a huge new contract.  Posters here mocked the Dolphins for this.   People weren't saying that he should retire (or not be resigned) because his life and health are at risk.....

 

To get back to my point, they didn't care.  Lots of people would just like to eliminate ANY threat in the division.  Hence, crocodile tears.

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Overwhelmingly, the comments about Tua were that his play didn't warrant a huge new contract.  Posters here mocked the Dolphins for this.   People weren't saying that he should retire (or not be resigned) because his life and health are at risk.....

 

To get back to my point, they didn't care.  Lots of people would just like to eliminate ANY threat in the division.  Hence, crocodile tears.

You have a point. Many of these same people celebrated Brian Campbell concussing RJ Umburger. I don't remember anyone saying that Umburger should retire. We even turned it into a verb.  

[Freddie's Dead]

22 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

I agree but I'm not sure how you can blame McDaniel..

 

If the docs clear him and you're the head coach, would you not play him?

 

Your job as a coach is to win as many games as you can and you have to trust the doctors to make those decisions.

 

Thats 100 percent on the doctors, not McDaniel 

 

McDaniel is a smart guy.  We all knew in 2022 that Tua was concussed.  McDaniel looked the other way, along with the Fish organization and the NFL.  They did Tua wrong.

[NewEra]

On 9/14/2024 at 8:27 AM, RunTheBall said:

IDK if this needs its own thread, I didn’t see one that seemed to fit, but feel free to merge it if appropriate.

 

I’m a doc, not a brain doc, but I’ve got enough experience with traumatic brain injury that I think I can opine with some credibility. I’ve always disliked Miami as a franchise but ever since 2022 I’ve had a searing hatred for them because I think they put Tua’s life in danger. 

 

The decision to allow Tua to play that Thursday night game after he got his first concussion against the Bills on a Sunday was criminal. When Tua fell/stumbled off the field and they said it was back spasms the NFL should have stepped in and said “WTF are you even thinking?!” That second concussion he suffered where he was fencing on the ground was the one that significantly scrambled his brain and has the potential to be life altering. Despite what that clown David Chao says, a fencing response is an indicator of a SEVERE concussion. You don’t get a fencing response on a minor concussion. What’s happening is near seizure like activity leading to spasticity and uncontrolled limb movements. 

 

We saw a fencing response from Tua again on Thursday night on what should have been a very minor head bonk. The reason Tua suffered another severe concussion on a minor hit was because his brain was significantly damaged back in 2022 and he’s highly vulnerable to future concussions and brain damage. There’s no question in my mind Tua should walk away from the game with his guaranteed millions and enjoy the rest of his life as healthy as he can. 

 

Miami is a disgusting franchise. The reason McDaniels looked so shell shocked on Thursday is because he knows he’s partially responsible for Tua’s marshmallow cranium. Every person who said it was ok for Tua to play that Thursday night in 2022, including the docs who signed off on it, should have been fired, and at the very least feel immense shame for what they did to Tua.

 

 

Not a fan of the title- I know it wasn’t made with bad intention, but it’s kind of classless imo

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Low Positive said:

You have a point. Many of these same people celebrated Brian Campbell concussing RJ Umburger. I don't remember anyone saying that Umburger should retire. We even turned it into a verb.  

 

Hamlin received CPR during a game, and his return was the feel good story of the decade, despite medical science still knowing exactly happened to him (commotio cordis is a diagnosis of exclusion).  Countless players have taken that same hit over the history of the league, how many went into cardiac arrest on the field?

 

Yet everyone was saying he should play "if they clear him", ignoring the fact that their is no way for any medical evaluator to determine whether he is prone to this, or at higher risk of recurrence.

5 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

McDaniel is a smart guy.  We all knew in 2022 that Tua was concussed.  McDaniel looked the other way, along with the Fish organization and the NFL.  They did Tua wrong.

 

they should have cut him?

[CSBill]

18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

"Remain amazed"?  Were you saying this before week 1?  

 

until last Sunday, they didn't really need an "A-2".    Why would they already have this in place?  What team does?

 

Agree. Most teams do not have the cap space to have a great plan B (or A-2). And even if they did, what options are out there?

 

So many teams need better QB play; quality back-ups don't sit and wait around for A-1 to get hurt. Conceptually, it's a good theory. But it loses its oomph when you place reality over it.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, TheWei44 said:

Pretty much agree with the "If Tua was my kid . . ." part - Discuss decision with close family members too.  So basically gather the best medical information possible and then decide with input from his inner non-team circle.  And he may need to consider things in a probabilistic sense, like if he gets hit once more, he's 75% likely to be out for X weeks and have these Y long-term effects, etc. 

 

I think the problem with what you suggest is there really isn't that strength of data, linking # of concussions vs long term effects, or # of concussions and missed time.

 

The data are pretty solid that having a concussion that hasn't fully healed puts a person at significantly higher risk for a second concussion.  As far as being able to construct probabilities though - we're not there.  Too many variables, starting with individual physiological responses, but not ending there.

 

Certainly Tua was horrendously mis-treated for what appeared to every observer (except the "unaffilliated neurotrauma consultant" hired by Miami, their ATCs (athletic trainer spotters, and their team physician) to be an obvious alteration of consciousness affecting his balance and ability to stand/walk, after the Milano hit - and nothing like how people respond when their back is spasming.   

But part of the problem to get to that quality data which could break it down into probability of missing X weeks or having Y long term effects, is the extreme variability with which concussions are detected and reported and the variability with how they are handled.

And part of the responsibility for that, lies with the players.

As a HS athlete, my daughter had to do baseline concussion testing.  She sat down and gave it her best effort.  Her best effort wasn't "up to" John Urshel, but it was pretty dang good.  Urshel took a long time to pass his baseline testing after his training camp concussion.  As he said, "I must have been having a good day when I did the baseline".  (I can only imagine what his coaches were saying about how long it took him to come back.  Nothing good, you can be sure). 

Meanwhile, kid was dating a DT and lifting weights with the football team, and the more senior guys mentored the young guys "don't be too sharp" on the baseline tests.   What's drilled into these guys, back in PeeWee Football?  McDermott says it: "The Best Ability is Availability".  Fitz gets his hand stamped on.  Gailey comes up while he's looking at his hand and asks if he can throw.  Fitz says "yeah, I'm fine, we can throw on every down".

 

Variable 1: You can't be available if you can't pass your baseline testing.  One player-side solution is, make sure your baseline isn't too sharp.
Variable 2: Your baseline testing is irrelevant if you aren't diagnosed with a concussion.  One player-side solution is, just don't report concussion symptoms.  It's the concussion equivalent of what my good friend's CO advised him regarding divorce: "admit nothing.  if your wife walks in on you in bed with another woman, say "what woman?" "  Get your "bell rung"?  Stay down and collect yourself if you can.  Wait to be helped up so you have that steadying teammate hand.  

It's highly probable IMO that the documented concussions every week in the NFL are only a small fraction of the actual concussions that occur, despite the independent neurotrauma consultant and the use of athletic trainer spotters who are supposed to watch the field and alert medical staff to possible injuries.

 

 

[Dan in Owego]

33 minutes ago, chongli said:

Word on the Miami forum is Tua is only saying he wants to come back so he gets the full amount of his contract. If he voluntarilly retires, he loses it, plus has to return part of his signing bonus.

Can't say i blame him, most if not all of us would too.