Tua’s Broken Dome (now being placed on IR-out at least 4 games)

[The Helmet of]

Raiders HC Antonio Pierce publicly calls for Tua to retire.
 

Good on him speaking his mind. It would have been easier to punt on that question. 

[BigDingus]

4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok let me give you a scenario then.

You're the bills head coach and it's the AFC championship game coming up 

 

The game/week before, Josh looks like he has a head injury as he gets off the ground dizzy. (Think like Tua when Milano hit him in 2022)

 

But the docs clear him and they tell you he's good to play.

 

Are you playing Josh in the AFC championship game, or are you going against the docs and sitting him?

 

If Josh had previously suffered multiple concussions this season, or this was the 2nd concussion-like thing in a week's time, I'd sit him.

 

If he only had 1 concussion but it was way earlier in the season, then this non-concussion thingy happened much later, I'd probably play him as long as he wasn't exhibiting after effects. But even if he showed ANY issues like dizziness, loss of memory, migraines, whatever, I'd sit him.

 

Because in that scenario, he's probably not going to be very good in the playoff game anyway, regardless of the stakes. And given the way Josh takes off running & is likely to get hit, he's far more likely to get knocked out of the game anyway. If I think there's any chance a single collision could have him instantly relapse, what's the point of doing that? Better to give my backup (no matter how awful) the reps that week to prepare them, rather than risk ruining the career of my franchise QB.

 

But if it was the first time this had happened, and Josh isn't showing continued issues, I'd also play him.

 

 

[Savage]

8 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Damar did nothing wrong at all. Tua was wrong to even be on the field. He should retire and live his life.

Damar is neither a great tackler, or heavy hitter.

 

he just got in the way.

 

[UKBillFan]

15 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This kills Miami. Their whole game is predicted on Tua delivering the ball quickly. It remains to be seen if Skyler can do that

 

I presume Tyler Huntley will be QB from week four.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/nfl/news/dolphins-qb-depth-chart-tyler-huntley-tua-tagovailoa/678c9a508638f87cf9f86f61

[Gregg]

15 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This kills Miami. Their whole game is predicted on Tua delivering the ball quickly. It remains to be seen if Skyler can do that

 

AFCE is a two-team race now.  Those Bills - Jets games will be hyped bigtime and rightfully so.

[JP51]

11 hours ago, Georgia Bill said:

I know the big discussion here is about whether or not Tua should retire, but I keep seeing video clips and news quotes that talk about Tua taking a hard hit, concussed after a hard hit by Damar Hamiln, etc.  It does not look to me like Damar "hit" Tua hard at all.  Like you said, Tua puts his head down like a battering ram and slams into Damar.  The "hit" was the hit that Damar laid on Hamlin.   It just bothers me, one video even talked about Tua being concussed again by the Bills.  Damar did nothing wrong at all.  If you know that hits to your head cause you problems, you shouldn't go hitting things with your head.

I have watched that play several times, I have no way of knowing the level of kinetic impact with that hit but geez it did not look to be anything out of an ordinary hit. I have heard that concussions get easier to get the more that you have had. This I think is very concerning to me as I just didnt see this as a violent collision, it was really more they ran into each other. If he is going to get a concussion on a hit like this and they get easier to get as they accumulate this is got to be spooky for him

[RunTheBall]

10 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I have watched that play several times, I have no way of knowing the level of kinetic impact with that hit but geez it did not look to be anything out of an ordinary hit. I have heard that concussions get easier to get the more that you have had. This I think is very concerning to me as I just didnt see this as a violent collision, it was really more they ran into each other. If he is going to get a concussion on a hit like this and they get easier to get as they accumulate this is got to be spooky for him

This was the point of my original post. The decision to put Tua in on the Thursday night game in 2022 which lead to a 2nd concussion (much worse) in 4 days is what then set him up for another severe concussion in 2024 on a routine hit. If Miami sat Tua that Thursday night I think there’s a good chance this hit in 2024 doesn’t cause a fencing response. If he decides to play again I think it’s going to significantly impact Miami’s offense because Tua isn’t going to run much at all, isn’t going to stand in the pocket, etc. I know he doesn’t do that much now but it will be in his head (and the head of the HC, OC, etc)

 

 

[JP51]

13 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

This was the point of my original post. The decision to put Tua in on the Thursday night game in 2022 which lead to a 2nd concussion (much worse) in 4 days is what then set him up for another severe concussion in 2024 on a routine hit. If Miami sat Tua that Thursday night I think there’s a good chance this hit in 2024 doesn’t cause a fencing response. If he decides to play again I think it’s going to significantly impact Miami’s offense because Tua isn’t going to run much at all, isn’t going to stand in the pocket, etc. I know he doesn’t do that much now but it will be in his head (and the head of the HC, OC, etc)

 

 

I agree with the the 2022 point 100% he wasnt fully recovered and then boom.  I do think if he plays they will try to protect him but I am just not sure how effective that will be. It would certainly impact what he does and potentially what they run. In the end its Tua's call... but different sport, if you remember Patty LaFontaine and his concussions... literally at the end he bumped into someone, his head jarred and he got another concussion... literally it became that easy.  I hope for his sake he thinks this thru with his family. 

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Mango said:

I think two different conversations are happening simultaneously. His payment and the ending of his career. 
 

In my mind Tua retires/is cut because he cannot safely compete anymore. His contract is guaranteed against injury. He gets paid his $160M or whatever:

 

Even in a scenario where the team doctor clears Tua but another doctor doesn’t, there is no way that the Dolphins nor the NFL want to sit in front of a judge and rewatch the 2022 Bills game, then again 4 days later, then this. 

 

OK, fair enough.  But when you mention "retirement", please recognize that you're moving into different territory than "cut" or "not medically cleared to play".

 

If Tua is cut or not medically cleared, he Gets His Bag, no question
 

If Tua retires, remember that Eric Wood "Non-retirement Retirement Presser" which Fitz famously roasted?  That was because if Tua retires, the Dolphins under the CBA can ask to be repaid the amortized portions of his signing bonus and to void his future salary guarantees. 

Now some teams go ahead and hand over the bag, as the Colts did with Andrew Luck in recognition, I think, for how hard he'd gone for them, how hard he'd tried to come back, and how poorly they handled his injury.  Do the Dolphins seem to you like that kind of class?

If Tua is not medically cleared, but doesn't have pretty iron-clad medical science behind it, and he wants to play, the NFLPA is bound defend him

 

As far as sitting in front of a judge, the first issue would be the legal validity of the waivers drafted by the best lawyers the NFL can buy, which all NFL players sign.  That would have to make its way through the courts long before there's a jury that watches video.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, RunTheBall said:

This was the point of my original post. The decision to put Tua in on the Thursday night game in 2022 which lead to a 2nd concussion (much worse) in 4 days is what then set him up for another severe concussion in 2024 on a routine hit. If Miami sat Tua that Thursday night I think there’s a good chance this hit in 2024 doesn’t cause a fencing response. If he decides to play again I think it’s going to significantly impact Miami’s offense because Tua isn’t going to run much at all, isn’t going to stand in the pocket, etc. I know he doesn’t do that much now but it will be in his head (and the head of the HC, OC, etc)

 

I think your point is more likely than not, but there are a couple things to bear in mind.  I think there's no question that Tua would likely be better off if he hadn't been placed in a position to suffer a 2nd concussion 4 days after the "undiagnosed" first concussion, but it's not a certainty that he wouldn't be having problems without it.

 

If you look at the video of the Milano "unnecessary roughness" hit, it was positively wimpy by NFL standards.  Tua took a double handed shove to the chest.  Doubtful Josh or Mahomes even fall down from that, unless they're in front of the ref and milking it for a penalty.  And if they do fall down, no way they wind up concussed because they have the instinctive body control and neck strength to roll into it.  Tua fell straight back with no twisting motion or someone on top of him or being thrown.  It was a hit and fall that every QB in the NFL takes maybe 4-5 times a game.

 

That's one reason why I think Tua's locker room "back spasms caused my balance breaks" assertion was so glibly accepted - it really didn't look like a fall that should cause a problem.
 

My point being, while I think you're absolutely correct that sustaining that and then playing 4 days later was a horrible thing that caused more severe damage, I think the concussion likely sustained from Milano's shove on Sunday is evidence that Tua's brain was already fragile to concussion.   And, Tua did sustain a 3rd concussion that 2022 season against Green Bay.  There's a good chance that Tua would be better off if his 1st 2022 concussion had been labeled as such and handled properly, but I don't think it's a certainty by any means.

Edited September 18 by Beck Water

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Pay him to sit?  Might as well cut him then.  

 

If he's cleared, they are playing him.

 

11 hours ago, Mango said:

Tua, you’re cut for being an injury liability. We don’t think you’ll be nearly as good post injury. 

 

Teams all across the league cut players post major injury all the time. 
 

Done. No HR needed. 

 

See above...

 

Also, I'm sure you understand that corporate takeover and downsizing layoffs/early retirement offers are not what are being discussed here.  We are talking about a single, particular employee getting fired without cause (i.e., if he is cleared to play)....

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Georgia Bill said:

I know the big discussion here is about whether or not Tua should retire, but I keep seeing video clips and news quotes that talk about Tua taking a hard hit, concussed after a hard hit by Damar Hamiln, etc.  It does not look to me like Damar "hit" Tua hard at all.  Like you said, Tua puts his head down like a battering ram and slams into Damar.  The "hit" was the hit that Damar laid on Hamlin.   It just bothers me, one video even talked about Tua being concussed again by the Bills.  Damar did nothing wrong at all.  If you know that hits to your head cause you problems, you shouldn't go hitting things with your head.

 

This point is absolutely correct.  If there was a "vicious hit" as some have called it, it was BY Tua ON Hamlin.  Hamlin actually looked like he was trying to minimize impact to Tua while making sure he was down. 

Tua ran full speed into Hamlin's chest protector and damned straight, if your head is fragile, don't use it as a battering ram.

But the media loves them their stories.

[Steve O]

1 hour ago, JP51 said:

I have heard that concussions get easier to get the more that you have had.

Having 5 between the ages of 17 and 45 I can vouch for this. No way the 5th would have put me down if it had been the first.

[Mat68]

Not keeping the weight he put on 2 off-seasons ago was a mistake.  Gotta have that natural armer to absorb the hits.  Having another severe brain injury on a normal football play makes you question everything for him moving forward.  A neuro scientist or Dr wont be able to simply clear him of symptoms but future damage sustained.  Eric Wood was healthy but any play cut threaten his spinal cord.  Im not a doctor but wouldn't Tua risk paralysis with the increased reaction to the damage?  

[ColoradoBills]

Dolphins putting Tua on IR was the proper thing to do.  Gives Tua time to get all the advice from different doctors needed to make

a well-informed decision.  No need to comment any further until at least week 8.

[Gregg]

Four concussions in the last 2 years. I would be shocked if the doctors told him to continue playing. He is a husband and father of 2 young children. Hopefully he puts his health and family first. That probably means retiring.

[Mango]

39 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

See above...

 

Also, I'm sure you understand that corporate takeover and downsizing layoffs/early retirement offers are not what are being discussed here.  We are talking about a single, particular employee getting fired without cause (i.e., if he is cleared to play)....

 

Tre White has entered the chat....

Being cut (injury or not) is not a labor law issue. LOL. 

[Beck Water]

7 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Not keeping the weight he put on 2 off-seasons ago was a mistake.  Gotta have that natural armer to absorb the hits.  Having another severe brain injury on a normal football play makes you question everything for him moving forward.  A neuro scientist or Dr wont be able to simply clear him of symptoms but future damage sustained.  Eric Wood was healthy but any play cut threaten his spinal cord.  Im not a doctor but wouldn't Tua risk paralysis with the increased reaction to the damage?  

 

No, that's the problem with concussions.  The damage is invisible to X-rays and even MRIs, and it won't cause paralysis in and of itself.  He may have things like constantly hearing noises, constant pain in his head, visual disturbance or sensitivity, forgetting how to perform ordinary activities like driving, navigate, etc.

If you're interested, here's a good article on Kevin Kolb from that man we love to hate, Ty Dunne (but he's a damned fine writer).

https://www.golongtd.com/p/part-i-what-happened-to-kevin-kolb

It starts with Kolb in 2013, having sustained 3 concussions of which the 3rd had scary-bad symptoms, and then sustaining a 4th.
 

This is after concussion #3, which it took him 10 weeks to recover from:

Quote

Everything was “too bright” and “too loud.” Sunglasses and earplugs only accomplished so much. Google the longest list of concussion symptoms you can find and Kolb estimates he was dealing with 80 percent of them that sunny day. Nauseous. Dizzy. His ears were ringing. He toggled in and out of the locker room to collect himself.

“My head,” Kolb says, “was going to explode. This was the first time I thought my brain was swollen. This is scary. I’m scared to death about what I’m going through.”

 

After #4 and his retirement:

Quote

His memory flickered. Once at the wheel, he needed to ask his daughter how to drive to her preschool.

His sleep suffered. In bed, he’d stare at the ceiling for four hours straight.

His vision blurred. When he read more than three pages of the Bible, words blended together. When he brushed his teeth in front of the mirror, a cloud would form around his face like those Washington Redskins fans in the stands. He’d be jacked up for a solid three hours, too. The sensation was disturbing.  

 

Quote

 

He wanted to babysit his daughters, to give Mom a break, but this hazy realm of existence became a danger. He could space out for a brief 2 minutes.

The moment Kolb came to, he panicked.

“Like, ‘Oh my gosh, Did I just run my child over when I pulled out of the driveway? Did she just go down to the lake when I wasn’t paying attention?’ When you have those drift-in-and-out moments, my kids were where my real fear was. Because they were all at the age of one to two to eight at that time.”

There were thankfully no such close calls.

Kolb did, however, nearly kill himself.

This memory’s been buried in his mind for 7 1/2 years. Kolb admits he hasn’t even thought about this close call since we last talked. But upon hearing Southwestern Boulevard, the images rush back to him. Yes, Kolb was driving from his home in Lake View to the Bills facility in Orchard Park. After spacing out — “dazed” and “drifted” — he glided over the center line at around 55 miles an hour with an oncoming vehicle only 45 yards away. Back in ’15, he said the other driver reacted. Today, Kolb thinks he corrected over himself.

 

On a positive note, it recounts how eventually most of the symptoms resolved, how some of his struggles had to do with football, his passion for 2 decades, ripped away from him suddenly, how he basically had to re-learn how to live as an ordinary human and father.  Kolb today is keeping busy as an enterpreneur, but still has visual symptoms.  

[JP51]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

No, that's the problem with concussions.  The damage is invisible to X-rays and even MRIs, and it won't cause paralysis in and of itself.  He may have things like constantly hearing noises, constant pain in his head, visual disturbance or sensitivity, forgetting how to perform ordinary activities like driving, navigate, etc.

If you're interested, here's a good article on Kevin Kolb from that man we love to hate, Ty Dunne (but he's a damned fine writer).

https://www.golongtd.com/p/part-i-what-happened-to-kevin-kolb

It starts with Kolb in 2013, having sustained 3 concussions of which the 3rd had scary-bad symptoms, and then sustaining a 4th.
 

This is after concussion #3, which it took him 10 weeks to recover from:

 

After #4 and his retirement:

 

 

On a positive note, it recounts how eventually most of the symptoms resolved, how some of his struggles had to do with football, his passion for 2 decades, ripped away from him suddenly, how he basically had to re-learn how to live as an ordinary human and father.  Kolb today is keeping busy as an enterpreneur, but still has visual symptoms.  

Excellent article on Kevin Kolb thank you for sharing.

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Tre White has entered the chat....

Being cut (injury or not) is not a labor law issue. LOL. 

 

No one has said otherwise. I stated so at least once---even reposting it above your last response.

 

Not sure what your  point is now.