Tyreek Hill apparently arrested this morning…

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

It’s really crazy that people dont realize how dangerous this line of work is. They need only go watch a few attack on police videos freely available on youtube to see how quickly it goes from just an innocent traffic stop to deadly. The police don't know you and these are their procedures to keep both them and you safe. 

Yup. It’s exactly why I posted the 2 vids I did a few pages back. People that work a desk job, Monday through Friday, that don’t deal with the safety and security of the public on a daily basis have no idea how bad things can go, and how fast they can get there. 

[chongli]

3 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Hill had every opportunity to deescalate the situation. The officer had every right to proceed through his steps he trained on to keep him safe.

 

Hill does not have to de-escalate. That is the officers' job. They failed.

Edited September 10 by chongli

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I appreciate that it’s hard to have complex debates on a message board but you seem to be under the impression that you’re on equal footing with the police. You are not. As a society we long ago decided that THEY are the authority and YOU are to comply with their reasonable requests, instructions, and in some cases demands…period. The same is true for a teacher, coach, boss, commanding officer, etc.  That’s what being in authority means! 

I respect authority and that includes the police. I'm a retired law enforcement officer who worked the federal prison system and immigration. 

 

During my 25 year career, I was able to avoid 100s and if not thousands of confrontations with good verbal communication skills. Using my discretion prudently and wisely. De-escalating situations over and over and using force appropriately and as a last resort. I tried not to ever have a chip on my shoulder, think I was better than anyone I encountered, and treated people with respect but yet demanded respect back. It's really an act to mold your style. Everyone has their own style sort of speak. 

 

I have serious concerns when I look at the Miami police officers actions, style, communication skills, professionalism, and de-escalating skills. I can't help but put myself in their situation and think things would have been vastly different for the good.

 

In no way does that make me think I'm on equal footing with the police. Citizens do have the right to criticize police actions. It doesn't make you less of a citizen. There is plenty to criticize from a law enforcement perspective. 

[Cray51]

1 minute ago, chongli said:

 

Hill does not have to deescalate. That is the officers' jobs. They failed.

Legally, no one HAS to de-escalate if I'm reading the legal situations in the past that have brought this into question, as long as the force used by police was "reasonable".  In this instance, I'd guess the police would not be illegal in actions by dragging him out of the car because Hill put his window all the way up and was not cooperating.  

 

With that said, morally I do not agree with that second cop's actions to simply open the car door and pull Hill out with force.  However, legally I do not being the cops HAVE to de-escalate.

[Heavy Kevi]

41 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Use of force in this situation could have been avoided and wasn't necessary. Hill posed no threat to the officers. Hill didn't need to be removed from his vehicle. In fact, it will make a good training video on what not to do. Police flexing their authority and using unnecessary force should never be condoned. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This is a case where the police are hiding behind the law and abusing their authority. No way in hell should have this ended this way. It was a clear example of pissed off officers showing Hill what happens when you don't listen. It was never about officers safety. 

 

Hey, I can be an ahole when I'm pulled over but I know what legally I'm allowed to do and say. In a traffic stop you can't roll your window back up.

 

It is true officers oftentimes use "officer safety" as a cudgel, but the truth is you are subjected to some things in a traffic stop... And rolling the window down enough to communicate is one of them. I don't roll my window down all the way (even if asked); but you HAVE to be able to communicate. Even if the officer doesn't like it, or you don't like it.

 

27 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I appreciate that it’s hard to have complex debates on a message board but you seem to be under the impression that you’re on equal footing with the police. You are not. As a society we long ago decided that THEY are the authority and YOU are to comply with their reasonable requests, instructions, and in some cases demands…period. The same is true for a teacher, coach, boss, commanding officer, etc.  That’s what being in authority means! 

 

Yowza. This response is just a little bit scary. It is true they have some authority on a traffic stop, but the idea we aren't on equal footing with police is bonkers.

 

Just to be clear... Police officers are ONLY authority if you are committing, have committed, or have reasonable suspicion that you are about to commit a crime.

 

If a cop walks up to you and demands, or "reasonably requests", or gives instructions, they are NOT authority, those are NOT lawful requests, and you are indeed on equal footing (or you are a bit higher actually as they are public servants who have sworn an oath to uphold your rights).

 

Now Tyreek, he's a bag of Richards and rolled up his window during a legal traffic stop when he WAS subjected to reasonable, lawful requests from an officer that he denied and ultimately got arrested for. That's totally in bounds.

 

But the blanket "they are authority" is just plain not true in most cases. If you don't break the law, police are not authority, they are servants of the public.

 

They also have a very dangerous, important job. We entrust them with powers to keep the peace and they risk life and limb on a near daily basis.

 

Both things are true. But let's not mislead people into thinking cops ARE authority when they are only authority in certain specific circumstances. Our bill of rights doesn't cease to exist just because someone has a badge.

[Steptide]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Tyreek triggers the cops, now the organization is bullying them. Wow. 

Ya, and they (the police) probably do alot on game days for traffic/safety etc. Bad look imo

[QCity]

21 minutes ago, mrags said:

Right? Everyone wants to complain that it wasn’t that big of a deal. Just a traffic ticket. Ok, let me speed down your suburban street, going 60+ in a 30, with your kids playing in the front yard and tell me you don’t get as mad as the cops in this video. 
 

seriously, anyone that thinks it’s ok, please send me your address, I’ll be driving down your street over and over again until you finally get it. 

 

What if there were little old ladies crossing the road? Could have been a blind person too. Maybe even an old WWII vet that was a POW!

 

That's what we're doing here now, right? Making up fake scenarios in our heads in order to whip ourselves into a frenzy?

[newcam2012]

4 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Legally, no one HAS to de-escalate if I'm reading the legal situations in the past that have brought this into question, as long as the force used by police was "reasonable".  In this instance, I'd guess the police would not be illegal in actions by dragging him out of the car because Hill put his window all the way up and was not cooperating.  

 

With that said, morally I do not agree with that second cop's actions to simply open the car door and pull Hill out with force.  However, legally I do not being the cops HAVE to de-escalate.

It's more of a duty to deescalate. It's always taught in training. Legally speaking they don't have any obligation to. However, I can guarantee you an officer who isn't skilled at de-escalating situations won't be employed long. 

[Cray51]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

It's more of a duty to deescalate. It's always taught in training. Legally speaking they don't have any obligation to. However, I can guarantee you an officer who isn't skilled at de-escalating situations won't be employed long. 

I agree 100%  I'm just pointing out when we start saying "HAVE TO" that turns the question into a legal matter, and legally a cop does not HAVE to de-escalate in situations like this (from what I am reading, I'm not expert)

Edited September 10 by Cray51

[SoCal Deek]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I respect authority and that includes the police. I'm a retired law enforcement officer who worked the federal prison system and immigration. 

 

During my 25 year career, I was able to avoid 100s and if not thousands of confrontations with good verbal communication skills. Using my discretion prudently and wisely. De-escalating situations over and over and using force appropriately and as a last resort. I tried not to ever have a chip on my shoulder, think I was better than anyone I encountered, and treated people with respect but yet demanded respect back. It's really an act to mold your style. Everyone has their own style sort of speak. 

 

I have serious concerns when I look at the Miami police officers actions, style, communication skills, professionalism, and de-escalating skills. I can't help but put myself in their situation and think things would have been vastly different for the good.

 

In no way does that make me think I'm on equal footing with the police. Citizens do have the right to criticize police actions. It doesn't make you less of a citizen. There is plenty to criticize from a law enforcement perspective. 

Thanks. And so I think you'd especially agree that during a traffic stop is NOT the time to do much 'questioning'. Once again, as a society, we have a built-in system that provides you with more than ample time and occasion to 'question' or dispute the arrest. 

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

What if there were little old ladies crossing the road? Could have been a blind person too. Maybe even an old WWII vet that was a POW!

 

That's what we're doing here now, right? Making up fake scenarios in our heads in order to whip ourselves into a frenzy?

There was clearly people walking down the sidewalk in the video. It’s not a made up scenario. Hill was reckless driving, in traffic, with people all over the sidewalk. Literally not a single thing made up in that. 

[chongli]

38 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

 Hill put his window all the way up and was not cooperating.  

 

 

I agree that legally, they dont have to de-escalate, but that is what they are trained to, and expected to, do.

 

Hill put his window up since he was embarrassed, and as a celebrity, didn't want people taking pictures of him.

 

If this was Green Bag or Philly, the police would have given him an escort once they recognized his status as a player.

Edited September 10 by chongli

[DrDawkinstein]

Man, I'm never one to side with police but even I was surprised at how baiting/confrontational/escalating Hill was with seemingly reasonable requests like keeping your blacked-out window down.

 

Totally understand why that would freak cops out since they cant see what you are doing, if you're going for a weapon, etc.

 

Maybe Hill didnt have to listen to the cop there and technically had the right to keep his window up, but read the room dude. Know your situation and the situation the cops are in. Shouldnt have to be a big deal if he wasnt such an #######.

 

I do agree that after that and after pulling him out of the car, the one cop got way too aggressive. But this could have all been pretty easily prevented by simply keeping his window down.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, chongli said:

 

I agree that legally, they dont have to de-escalate, but that is what they are trained, and expected, to do

 

Hill put his window up since he was embarrassed, and as a celebrity, didn't want people taking pictures of him.

 

If this was Green Bag or Philly, the police would have given him an escort once they recognized his status as a player.

Being 'embarrassed' is the price you pay for being well known. It's all the more reason for you NOT to put yourself in those sort of situations.

[Cray51]

5 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

I agree that legally, they dont have to de-escalate, but that is what they are trained, and expected, to do

 

Hill put his window up since he was embarrassed, and as a celebrity, didn't want people taking pictures of him.

 

If this was Green Bag or Philly, the police would have given him an escort once they recognized his status as a player.

I dont think Hill really has the right to put up his window just because he is a celebrity.  Everyone who gets pulled over is embarrassed to a degree.  

[newcam2012]

4 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

 

Hey, I can be an ahole when I'm pulled over but I know what legally I'm allowed to do and say. In a traffic stop you can't roll your window back up.

 

It is true officers oftentimes use "officer safety" as a cudgel, but the truth is you are subjected to some things in a traffic stop... And rolling the window down enough to communicate is one of them. I don't roll my window down all the way (even if asked); but you HAVE to be able to communicate. Even if the officer doesn't like it, or you don't like it.

 

 

Yowza. This response is just a little bit scary. It is true they have some authority on a traffic stop, but the idea we aren't on equal footing with police is bonkers.

 

Just to be clear... Police officers are ONLY authority if you are committing, have committed, or have reasonable suspicion that you are about to commit a crime.

 

If a cop walks up to you and demands, or "reasonably requests", or gives instructions, they are NOT authority, those are NOT lawful requests, and you are indeed on equal footing (or you are a bit higher actually as they are public servants who have sworn an oath to uphold your rights).

 

Now Tyreek, he's a bag of Richards and rolled up his window during a legal traffic stop when he WAS subjected to reasonable, lawful requests from an officer that he denied and ultimately got arrested for. That's totally in bounds.

 

But the blanket "they are authority" is just plain not true in most cases. If you don't break the law, police are not authority, they are servants of the public.

 

They also have a very dangerous, important job. We entrust them with powers to keep the peace and they risk life and limb on a near daily basis.

 

Both things are true. But let's not mislead people into thinking cops ARE authority when they are only authority in certain specific circumstances. Our bill of rights doesn't cease to exist just because someone has a badge.

Not sure if you are aware that Hill did finally roll down his window prior to being pulled out of his vehicle. It was only rolled down a little.  Was this sufficient or insufficient from a legal standard. Does it do a level of compliance? Could the officer adequately see in the vehicle? 

 

Also, I think the words of the own officers are being incriminating. Do these words seem to diminish the officer safety thesis? " We aren't going to play these game." "It's not about you It's about what we say." "You should have listened." 

 

Another questionable action is the use of force by the second officer grabbing Hill's neck in order to get him to sit down. Hill was cuffed and being watched and restrained by another officer. Add in the officer in derrogatory terms mentions to Hill did he have surgery on his ears too. Shows a level of anger and aggression. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 minute ago, Cray51 said:

I dont think Hill really has the right to put up his window just because he is a celebrity.  Everyone who gets pulled over is embarrassed to a degree.  

Right, and if someone is recklessly driving, maybe they should feel some shame???

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Also, I think the words of the own officers are being incriminating. Do these words seem to diminish the officer safety thesis? " We aren't going to play these game." "It's not about you It's about what we say." "You should have listened." 

 

 

IMO, and again I cant believe Im siding with the cops, I think those statements fall right in line with why they wanted him to keep his window down. It's not about his celebrity or embarassment, it was about their safety. He should have listened to a very simple request.

 

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Another questionable action is the use of force by the second officer grabbing Hill's neck in order to get him to sit down. Hill was cuffed and being watched and restrained by another officer. Add in the officer in derrogatory terms mentions to Hill did he have surgery on his ears too. Shows a level of anger and aggression. 

 

Totally agreed that pretty much everything that happened after they pulled him out was over the line and cop needs to be punished/suspended/fired. But this all could have been avoided pretty easily with a better attitude from Hill, or simply not speeding through neighborhoods in the first place.

[4merper4mer]

23 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

What if there were little old ladies crossing the road? Could have been a blind person too. Maybe even an old WWII vet that was a POW!

 

That's what we're doing here now, right? Making up fake scenarios in our heads in order to whip ourselves into a frenzy?

Huh?  He should be able to go 100 because nothing happened?  Should he be able to drive drunk as long as nobody gets hurt too?  
 

There are speed limits on roads.  He far exceeded the limit on the road.  That’s all folks.

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks. And so I think you'd especially agree that during a traffic stop is NOT the time to do much 'questioning'. Once again, as a society, we have a built-in system that provides you with more than ample time and occasion to 'question' or dispute the arrest. 

I got what you are saying. Police will almost always tell a ticketed motorist than can fight in in a court of law. That's their avenue to file their complaints. 

 

However, that's not completely realistic to many people. People will complain to police when they think they have been wronged. He k, they will complain for various reasons like being pissed off, displeasure for police, etc... Pick your reason. 

 

In my humble opinion, the best law enforcement officers are the ones who can communicate effectively, gets respect as well as gives respect, deescalates situations effectively, able to make sound judgements under duress, etc...

 

Frankly, I didn't see much of this with regards to the Miami police officers. 

12 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Right, and if someone is recklessly driving, maybe they should feel some shame???

I disagree totally with the shame angle. Hill has no shame. He's a selfish dbag.