The chatter around the Worthy trade isn't rational

[Shortchaz]

3 minutes ago, Nelius said:

Not sure if this was mentioned, but outside of the Worthy worship...Kelce went 3-34

 

I'm actually fine with an undersized and potentially fragile Worthy becoming a new gadget extraordinaire if it helps usher Kelce into the abyss. All of the backwards hats in the world can't change that he's 34, the inevitable downfall must start sometime soon

Reminds me of when I thought Brady was done 8 years before he retired. The chiefs are going to keep winning for years to come. 

[Success]

5 minutes ago, Nelius said:

Not sure if this was mentioned, but outside of the Worthy worship...Kelce went 3-34

 

I'm actually fine with an undersized and potentially fragile Worthy becoming a new gadget extraordinaire if it helps usher Kelce into the abyss. All of the backwards hats in the world can't change that he's 34, the inevitable downfall must start sometime soon

 

Kelce looked SLOW. He looked a bit out of shape, also.

 

It will be interesting to see if he's as dominant as he has been in the past.

 

1 minute ago, Shortchaz said:

Reminds me of when I thought Brady was done 8 years before he retired. The chiefs are going to keep winning for years to come. 

 

Are you suggesting that Kelce can be a top tight-end for 8 more years, or anything close to that?

 

 

[Neo]

42 minutes ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Fair or not, two franchise altering decisions were made:

 

1. Not drafting Mahomes. It was idiotic at the time. Not hindsight. We had no QB at the time. 

 

2. Getting a worthless late first rounder while simultaneously turning the Chiefs into a dynasty. 

 

We unintentionally cost ourselves a few SB trips because of one move.

 

 

 

 

It was not idiotic at the time.   GMs across the league disagreed dramatically on his trajectory.   He was high risk, high reward.  Kudos to the Chiefs.  We made a good trade.  KC made a home run talent decision.   The two aspects of every pick trade are the picks, themselves, and the team’s ability to project talent.   I think it was a great pick trade for the Bills.  It was a Home Run talent evaluation by the Chiefs.  Not having a QB doesn’t change what we do with #10 if we don’t see the value.  See EJ Manuel.

Edited September 7 by Neo

[Allen2Coleman]

11 hours ago, balln said:

Last year was the year to beat chiefs. Had them at home. Def the weakest they’ve been on offense. Now they have holywood and worthy to stretch the field and let Kelce and rice eat underneath 

Maybe this year the Chiefs will be hindered by as many injuries as we were last year. 

[SoTier]

23 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

He wasn’t even close to a sure thing. Many preferred Watson. No Andy Reid here either, so who knows how things would have gone ? 

 

Exactly.  I think that there was a lot of skepticism about Mahomes because of the type of offense that he played in college.  As it was, Mahomes sat behind Alex Smith for the 2017 season until the very last game.  Furthermore, Chicago traded up to #3 to take Mitch Trubisky, so Mahomes was hardly a shoo-in.   Moreover, the Bills took Tre White with their pick from KC -- AND they bundled the first rounder they got from KC to trade up to get Allen in 2018.

 

7 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

Reminds me of when I thought Brady was done 8 years before he retired. The chiefs are going to keep winning for years to come. 

 

But not because of Xavier Worthy

[Boatdrinks]

6 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Exactly.  I think that there was a lot of skepticism about Mahomes because of the type of offense that he played in college.  As it was, Mahomes sat behind Alex Smith for the 2017 season until the very last game.  Furthermore, Chicago traded up to #3 to take Mitch Trubisky, so Mahomes was hardly a shoo-in.   Moreover, the Bills took Tre White with their pick from KC -- AND they bundled the first rounder they got from KC to trade up to get Allen in 2018.

 

 

But not because of Xavier Worthy

There definitely was skepticism about Mahomes as players have put up numbers in that offense and Conference. It’s definitely too soon to put Worthy in the HOF. The Chiefs have the best offensive mind in the game as HC so I don’t doubt they will continue to win. A single WR isn’t the key to their success as we’ve seen with their willingness to trade Tyreek Hill. As for the Bills trade specifics , I don’t think they received a 2018 #1 for that move down. Whatever they got, I think they used it to move up for Edmunds . Not sure though. 

[DaVinci]

What will be interesting is how much they go to Coleman. The Bills have a tendency to have a rookie break in period. Andy Reid throughs his rookie into the fire.

[Shortchaz]

37 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Are you suggesting that Kelce can be a top tight-end for 8 more years, or anything close to that?

 

 

He’s not a top t.e. Because of his athleticism at this point. He’s like a quality vet 6 man in basketball. He gets his numbers and contributes in a meaningful way. The chiefs are going to keep winning for years to come. 

[BigDingus]

1 hour ago, Shortchaz said:

He’s not a top t.e. Because of his athleticism at this point. He’s like a quality vet 6 man in basketball. He gets his numbers and contributes in a meaningful way. The chiefs are going to keep winning for years to come. 

 

The Chiefs will keep winning with or without Kelce at this point. Mahomes was always good, but with experience he's only get smarter on top of the physical skills.

 

They've also been developing Noah Grey as a 2nd TE that they seem to like. Not sure if they're looking for him to replace Kelce in the future, but I certainly see his role increasing as Kelce ages.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

5 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Who the hell cares what social and broadcast media mavens or fans say????   Beane's job is to build the best team he can, not pander to the media and/or to fans who think they have a better handle on team needs and draft picks' quality than the professionals who do evaluations for their livings.

 

 

Trading down in the draft is in no way comparable to trading a star veteran player to a divisional rival.   Apples to pineapples.

 

 

Why do you assume that Worthy is more likely to become a star than Coleman?   It's entirely possible that Coleman becomes a solid NFL wide receiver while Worthy never becomes more than a gadget guy simply because Worthy's really under-sized -- and that is very limiting, both in terms of how he can be used and likely in longevity.  Coleman isn't real fast but if he can develop into a sure-handed route-runner who can block pretty well, he can have a long, productive NFL career. 

 

 

This is just silly. Drafting players is a crap shoot.  Something like only about half of first rounders become good/great NFLers.  

 

Trading down is not a lose-lose situation if the team gets the player they wanted plus an extra pick, even a very low one.  The more picks a team has, the more likely they find somebody to contribute to the team.

 

Trading up is much more likely to be a losing proposition.  In 2018, the Jests traded 3 second round picks to Indy to move from #6 to #3 to draft Sam Darnold.   The Bills drafted Josh Allen at #7 (after trading up, too).  In 2021, the Niners traded their #12 pick plus their next 2 first rounders to the Dolphins take Trey Lance at #3.  The Fins turned around and traded with Philly to move up to #6 to take Tua.  In 2022, the Niners drafted Brock Purdy at #262.    

 

As I said, the draft is a crap shoot ... but teams usually don't really know if they've actually won or lost until two or three years down the line.

 

 

I was being a little bit facetious because I don’t think Coleman will be great. But at the heart of it is I don’t believe the Bills got the guy they wanted. Fans keep saying that but it’s obviously not true. They liked a handful of guys and were willing to miss out on Coleman as long as one of them was still there. That makes more sense based on their actions. If Coleman was their guy trading down was reckless 

[BobbyC81]

On 9/6/2024 at 7:55 AM, SCBills said:

Yes, Chiefs would have gotten him regardless.. unless we drafted him. 
 

Ironically, the Chiefs being physical with our WR’s in the Playoffs and clamping them with single coverage is probably why we avoided him.  
 

You can see it in our overall philosophy with Kincaid, Knox, Coleman, Hollins and MVS.  Even Shakir and Samuel are thicker WR’s for the slot/gadget stuff we’ll run. 

I think the Chiefs got word, valid or not, that someone above them was considering Worthy.  Why else would they trade up?  Yes, they could’ve possibly traded with another team to move up for Worthy, but my point of view is that you don’t help your main rivals.  

[BobbyC81]

6 hours ago, Neo said:

 

It was not idiotic at the time.   GMs across the league disagreed dramatically on his trajectory.   He was high risk, high reward.  Kudos to the Chiefs.  We made a good trade.  KC made a home run talent decision.   The two aspects of every pick trade are the picks, themselves, and the team’s ability to project talent.   I think it was a great pick trade for the Bills.  It was a Home Run talent evaluation by the Chiefs.  Not having a QB doesn’t change what we do with #10 if we don’t see the value.  See EJ Manuel.

Did you have to bring up EJ Manuel?   That was so dumb by Buddy Nix to decide they need a QB in a draft where it was questionable that any of the QBs were first round blue chip prospects.  EJ failed, as did Geno Smith, but credit to Geno for sticking with it and becoming a late bloomer.

[dgrochester55]

On 9/7/2024 at 8:28 AM, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

 

If Coleman gets 7 for 100 and 2TD then I'm upset we didn't just take him at our original pick. The trade down is a lose-lose. Why risk losing out on Coleman AND guarantee KC gets who they want?

 

edit: unless the compensation is significant. Which it was = 6th round pick

The trades were as follows.  Buffalo trades Picks 28, 133 and 248 to the Chiefs for picks 32, 95 and 221. Subsequently, the Bills traded the 32nd and 200th pick to the panthers for the 33rd and 141st.

 

The players involved are

 

BIlls-Keon Coleman-WR, DeWayne Carter DT, Sedrick Van Pan Granger C and Travis Clayton OT

Chiefs-Xavier Worthy-WR, Jaden Hicks S, and CJ Hanson G

Panthers-Xavier Legette-WR and Jaden Crumedy-DT

 

Carter, Van Pan Granger and Hicks are likely backups for their respective team this year who may contribute more in the future, but this is really about Coleman, Worthy and Legette. I also do not like the concept of trading to a rival and giving them who they want, but if Coleman becomes a star, it is a good decision. Only time will tell.

Edited September 8 by dgrochester55

[SoTier]

 

8 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

Did you have to bring up EJ Manuel?   That was so dumb by Buddy Nix to decide they need a QB in a draft where it was questionable that any of the QBs were first round blue chip prospects.  EJ failed, as did Geno Smith, but credit to Geno for sticking with it and becoming a late bloomer.

 

Drafting Manuel was a classic example of why I hate Russ Brandon.  The very best thing that happened to the Buffalo Bills since the Glory Years was the Pegulas' firing Brandon.   Brandon ruled the Bills in Ralph Wilson's last years as if he were the owner, and his aim was to make the Bills as profitable as possible so that the team would bring in as much as possible in the inevitable sale after Wilson passed.  Whether it was Nix or Whaley, the Bills FO took their marching orders from Brandon, and in 2013 he ordered them to draft a QB because he knew a first round rookie QB would put butts in the seats.   That there were no actual first round worthy QBs in that draft was immaterial.  It was all about $$$ with Brandon.  Say what you want about Beane, but he's trying to build the best team he can, and he's done a pretty good job. 

 

I think Geno Smith is one of the very few QBs who can truly be said to be a "late bloomer", ie a high-draft pick QB who failed early on but became a solid starter later in his career.   Geno has also sustained his good play over a couple of seasons, and that's really unusual. 

[BarleyNY]

12 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

I was being a little bit facetious because I don’t think Coleman will be great. But at the heart of it is I don’t believe the Bills got the guy they wanted. Fans keep saying that but it’s obviously not true. They liked a handful of guys and were willing to miss out on Coleman as long as one of them was still there. That makes more sense based on their actions. If Coleman was their guy trading down was reckless 

 

I think that once the top few WRs came off the board, the Bills had a handful in the same “basket”. Then they positioned themselves for Allen’s preferred one of that group. Their trade back with KC was for almost nothing so they were highly motivated sellers. Dealing with KC tells me they wanted to stay in the range to get Coleman. I’d have preferred a bigger, more profitable trade back and WR selections other than Coleman. Or staying put and picking Worthy or McConkey. I think that keeping Allen happy is priority one for this staff so that’s what they went with. Also I agree that you do not trade with KC except for a complete fleecing. We obviously got the opposite of that. 

[Simon]

Fwiw, I spent a lot of years playing straight man corner with no help over the top and I would much rather play against a guy like Worthy than a guy like Coleman.

With a "Worthy" you start a bar brawl at the beginning of every play and try to end every play on the ground with a knee or elbow driving into ribs or hammies or whatever and the "Worthy" spends most of his day concentrating on you instead of the offense.

With a "Coleman" you start that bar brawl for about a quarter and then realize "OK, that's enough of that" and then spend the rest of the day just trying to play him straight up because you can't beat him up or intimidate him.

 

Advantage: Coleman

[muppy]

I think Mr Worthy is now our competition. And as such  any conjecture about his performance had he come here Is Moot. I Don''t wish him harm OR Good either.

 

I personally think he is going to be eventually squished solely due to  his small VERY small stature.

 

I'm happy today with our choice. HA.

 

***** the chiefs

Edited September 8 by muppy

[buffaloboyinATL]

Most “chatter” is irrational. But I agree. Worthy is one of those players like Hollywood Brown. He looks great when he is healthy, but he will not be able to stay healthy. 

[Bob in STL]

Coleman played well this week, as did Worthy.  
 

It will take several years to judge the draft pick swap.  

Edited September 8 by Bob in STL

[BobbyC81]

2 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

Coleman played well this week, as did Worthy.  
 

It will take several years to judge the draft pick swap.  

Yeah, he did.  So much for the “experts” thinking he would be brought along slowly and not contribute much in his first year.  He had the team’s most targets, receptions and receiving yards.  
 

Speaking of targets, it was surprising that Kincaid had only 2 targets.