This just in(not really)........Lamar Jackson is a below-average QB propped up by the Media

[That's No Moon]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

These plays happen all the time to every qb. It’s the hardest job in sports. Lamar isn’t the best passer but he’s really good. 

He's a construct of fantasy football and gambling. What he does well scored people lots of points so they love him for it. What he doesn't do costs his actual team games.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

He's a construct of fantasy football and gambling. What he does well scored people lots of points so they love him for it. What he doesn't do costs his actual team games.

 

Buffalo outgained baltimore by less than 100 yards, and baltimore outscored buffalo by 32.  So as offenses, they are comparable.  Baltimore had a greater yards per play total, even with Huntley starting 1 game.  Buffalo had 28 offensive turnovers, to Baltimore's 19.  Buffalo had Diggs, Baltimore had Flowers and the husk of beckham with 1/2 a season of Andrews.  Baltimore also used like 7 running backs, and Jackson was the leading rusher.  

 

The same narrative that Allen carries too much of the team falls on Lamar.  

[Shaw66]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Harsh review, but difficult to disagree much when it comes to him operating a downfield passing attack ON TIME. 

 

Off-schedule, however, he's a maestro. It slows down for him once he forces 2nd and 3rd level defenders into conflict. Which is why the Ravens need to run the damned ball relentlessly and then capitalize on play-action and bootlegs and read-options and the like. Monken has had famous lapses the last two games when he didn't run the ball OR utilize enough play-action. 

I agree that it's a harsh review, but the fundamental point is correct.  The problem with Jackson is that to take advantage of his extraordinary talents, the ball needs to be in his hands ten plays a game when all other good teams are getting the ball to their other skill position offensive players.   Now, on those ten plays, the offense is doing just fine, because Jackson does amazing stuff.  However, those ten plays mean that other ball carriers aren't getting the ball and receivers aren't being targeted.  That hurts them in free agency, because no top wideout wants to go to a team whose focus is not throwing to the wideouts.  Same for running backs, except guys like Henry who's willing to take a more limited role than he's had in the past. 

 

Beyond the personnel problem, however, there's also the problem of how the focus on Lamar limits their offense.  Teams (like the Bills) figured out a few years ago that the way to play Lamar in the passing game is to design the pass rush to keep him in the pocket and force him to manage the game like any other good NFL quarterback.  Then, it's as you say - he is below average as a QB who can execute a passing attack with good decision making, on time, and accurately.  Last night he missed TWO open receivers in the end zone on the final possession, and then he threw too high to Likely and essentially forced the guy out of bounds, if only by a toenail.  

 

All of what I've just said also describes Josh Allen, and it's what I've been saying about Josh for a couple of years now.  The difference is that Josh is an excellent thrower, so when he makes the right decisions, he doesn't miss.  There's no way he would have missed all three of those throws last night.   And he's way ahead of Lamar on the decision making and on-time throws.   Josh has been making steady progress, and I'm expecting a serious leap this season, because Brady is giving him an offense to run that demands great execution in the passing game, something that Josh is capable of but that he hasn't yet mastered.  Brady is no doubt telling him that play after play, there is going to be an open guy and it is predictable where that guy will be.  Josh has to relax, recognize what's happening, and deliver the ball.  I think Josh is going up over 70% completions this season, which will improve his total yardage and will improve the Bills' ability to sustain drives.  

 

Josh is second in the league, only to Lamar, with his running ability.  There are other QBs who run, of course, but Josh's combination of speed, recognition, and power make him a more valuable runner than anyone except Lamar.   And Josh is a much better thrower, I mean, so much better that it's hard to even describe.   If Josh executes the offense this season, he is going to look like a true Hall of Fame QB.

 

 

[Rubes]

Not really surprising that there are so many varying opinions on Lamar.

 

He's a great athlete who can make plays that most other players can't make. He'll lead an offense to a lot of yards, points, and wins. That alone makes him a really good QB, seems hard to doubt that.

 

Then again, the impression I got watching that game is that Lamar still doesn't have top-level passing skills. He's definitely good, but his instinct is to trust his legs more than his arm. When receivers weren't immediately available, he bailed and went with his legs. More often than not, that works out for him and the offense, and he's incredibly hard to defend. But at the same time, it puts his weaknesses as a passer on full display. I'll just note that he has *weaknesses* (as do most QBs), not that he is weak as a passer.

 

One of the qualities that is frequently described about Josh and that makes him an effective passer is that, when he's scrambling around the backfield, he always has his eyes down the field looking for a receiver. And he'll often make a spectacular throw and play when he does that. That highlights his strengths as a passer. He's also a great runner, but at this point in his career he's less likely to bail and trust his legs more than his arms—something that Lamar still does.

 

They're both excellent QBs who will lead their teams to great stats and victories, I think this game just reinforced that Josh, to me, is a much better passer and decision-maker (even though they both sometimes still make bone-headed decisions).

 

[colin]

I think josh is better than lamar (i think he's a bit better than mahomes too, I might be biased!).

 

The only real knock on lamar IMO is his playoff games.  his passing and d reading flaws are more than offset by his green light while still protecting the ball, and his insane play making ability during the regular season.  in the playoffs, it just seems like he gets bottled up and performs worse than he does in the regs.  I see him as the QB equivalent (and perhaps the baltimore O) of our D.  just top level overall stats and results for the reg season, but the short comings that get papered over in the regular season get exposed in the playoffs.

 

for our d, i think there are some key personnel issues, but mainly its our play calling/scheme strategy, particularly when going up against teams in the playoffs, or for the second time (i.e. KC).  there might be some of that with lamar and the raven's O, but he's pretty freewheeling and creates his own shot (similar to josh) but just like our D did vs him in 2021, if you can keep him from running past you and make him read the d and make accurate on time passes, he's historically faltered in the playoffs.

[Dillenger4]

10 hours ago, Special K said:

Can't read Defenses.

 

One read, then run it on nearly every play.

 

Most of the completions he did have were the result of great catches by his receivers of terrible throws.

 

Overthrows, throws into coverage, missing wide open receivers....I could go on and on.

 

He is nowhere near the level of Mahomes, Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, yet he is a 2 time MVP???

 

Give me a break.

 

I know some will disagree with me, but please tell me what you saw out there today(minus running the ball as many times as a RB in a game) that tells you he is on the same level as the top QB's in the league??

OK then. Cool story bro

[Ga boy]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree that it's a harsh review, but the fundamental point is correct.  The problem with Jackson is that to take advantage of his extraordinary talents, the ball needs to be in his hands ten plays a game when all other good teams are getting the ball to their other skill position offensive players.   Now, on those ten plays, the offense is doing just fine, because Jackson does amazing stuff.  However, those ten plays mean that other ball carriers aren't getting the ball and receivers aren't being targeted.  That hurts them in free agency, because no top wideout wants to go to a team whose focus is not throwing to the wideouts.  Same for running backs, except guys like Henry who's willing to take a more limited role than he's had in the past. 

 

Beyond the personnel problem, however, there's also the problem of how the focus on Lamar limits their offense.  Teams (like the Bills) figured out a few years ago that the way to play Lamar in the passing game is to design the pass rush to keep him in the pocket and force him to manage the game like any other good NFL quarterback.  Then, it's as you say - he is below average as a QB who can execute a passing attack with good decision making, on time, and accurately.  Last night he missed TWO open receivers in the end zone on the final possession, and then he threw too high to Likely and essentially forced the guy out of bounds, if only by a toenail.  

 

All of what I've just said also describes Josh Allen, and it's what I've been saying about Josh for a couple of years now.  The difference is that Josh is an excellent thrower, so when he makes the right decisions, he doesn't miss.  There's no way he would have missed all three of those throws last night.   And he's way ahead of Lamar on the decision making and on-time throws.   Josh has been making steady progress, and I'm expecting a serious leap this season, because Brady is giving him an offense to run that demands great execution in the passing game, something that Josh is capable of but that he hasn't yet mastered.  Brady is no doubt telling him that play after play, there is going to be an open guy and it is predictable where that guy will be.  Josh has to relax, recognize what's happening, and deliver the ball.  I think Josh is going up over 70% completions this season, which will improve his total yardage and will improve the Bills' ability to sustain drives.  

 

Josh is second in the league, only to Lamar, with his running ability.  There are other QBs who run, of course, but Josh's combination of speed, recognition, and power make him a more valuable runner than anyone except Lamar.   And Josh is a much better thrower, I mean, so much better that it's hard to even describe.   If Josh executes the offense this season, he is going to look like a true Hall of Fame QB.

 

 

Josh will make Shakir and Coleman elite in the NFL.  Better running game.  Cook catching swing passes, and Kincaid and Knox going beast mode.  Who can stop that?

[C.Biscuit97]

25 minutes ago, Process said:

When it comes to awards, media narratives, player rankings etc, race is absolutely a factor. 

 

He did not deserve to be the MVP and he is not close to the second best player in the NFL, as voted on by the players. 

 

ESPN doesn't even try to hide their bias....

 

https://x.com/SaycheeseDGTL/status/1768313698634854585?t=d-mIVpTWRAvy_JHKIt2cWQ&s=19

 

Lamar is a great QB, but when it comes to things like MVP there is no doubt he benefits from the media trying to hype up the "underappreciated" black QB. 

 

Sounds you’re the one making this a racial thing because of your own biases. 
 

imagine in 2024 thinking the reason that reason the qb on the most dominant regular season team won the mvp because he’s black. That would sound kinda racist. 

[Boatdrinks]

Lamar Jackson is certainly an above average QB. Josh Allen, however is better. The media is extremely biased, and will never vote Allen MVP imo. 

[Warcodered]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

That's a very good defense he played 

Got them to within one single toe

 

Lamar haters are weirdos just like Allen haters

Lamar hate is born off irrational Lamar hype. Being honest he's generally been a decent to good QB, if he improved as a thrower he could be great.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

22 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Lamar Jackson is certainly an above average QB. Josh Allen, however is better. The media is extremely biased, and will never vote Allen MVP imo. 

 

Here are the following reasons that should be considered. 

• 28 turnovers (Buffalo) vs. 19 turnovers (Baltimore)
• 11-6 (Buffalo) vs. 13-4 (Baltimore 13-3 in games started by LJ, he sat week 18).  The 3 losses in games Jackson started were by 3, 7 and 2 points.  
• Each team had similar total yards, baltimore scored a few more points on the year even with jackson sitting week 18.
• Buffalo fired their Offensive coordinator mid-season, not good optics.
• Jackson did not have "help" in the way of pro bowl WRs, and his pro bowl TE was hurt midseason.  They also had a mash list at running back.  0 1000 yard receiver, or 1000 yard rusher.  
• The last regular season game he played in 2023 (playoffs don't matter for MVP).  They beat miami by 37, and he had 5 TDs and 300+ on 21 passes and another 35 on the ground.  An MVP performance to lock up home-field advantage after beating SF the week before.
• Adding Jacksons averages to his totals would get him 3908 Passing yards 26/8 and 872 rushing yards with 5 TDs.  That's 4780 yards, and 31 TDs.  From a stat perspective you shouldn't punish him for winning so much that he didn't have to play.  Allen had 4306 and 524 so 4930 and 44 total TDs.  The yardage is similar but allen had 13 more total TDs.  Jackson lost 6 fumbles to 4 for Allen.  Allen threw 18 INTs vs. 7 (projected 8 as i added one for a hypothetical stat projection).  So 14 turnovers vs. 22 for Allen individually.  

 

So after reading that... with the offenses as a whole having similar yardage and point totals.  Who is inherently biased?  The media?  Or the bills fans who ignore any of the factors above since it doesn't fit their narrative.  I'd have to do some digging but most of the time the MVP is the best player on the best team in the league.  They had the best record in the AFC, and beat the best team in the NFC by 14.  

Edited September 6 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[RyanC883]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Ah yes the "if you take away his elite asset he is below average" game. When you evaluate Lamar Jackson the Quarterback you have to evaluate all of Lamar Jackson the Quarterback. Not just what he does as a passer. His entire game. 

 

He is not Allen or Mahomes but he is unique and brilliant in his own way.

 

I agree he is unique, but I don't think he can win a big game.  (Allen hasn't either, but he put his team in position to succeed).  The numerous missed shots to the endzone on the final drive were indicative of that.  His game overall is great, but when the field shortens and time is of the essence, his game can't handle that.  

[DapperCam]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Here are the following reasons that should be considered. 

• 28 turnovers (Buffalo) vs. 19 turnovers (Baltimore)
• 11-6 (Buffalo) vs. 13-4 (Baltimore 13-3 in games started by LJ, he sat week 18).  The 3 losses in games Jackson started were by 3, 7 and 2 points.  
• Each team had similar total yards, baltimore scored a few more points on the year even with jackson sitting week 18.
• Buffalo fired their Offensive coordinator mid-season, not good optics.
• Jackson did not have "help" in the way of pro bowl WRs, and his pro bowl TE was hurt midseason.  They also had a mash list at running back.  0 1000 yard receiver, or 1000 yard rusher.  
• The last regular season game he played in 2023 (playoffs don't matter for MVP).  They beat miami by 37, and he had 5 TDs and 300+ on 21 passes and another 35 on the ground.  An MVP performance to lock up home-field advantage after beating SF the week before.
• Adding Jacksons averages to his totals would get him 3908 Passing yards 26/8 and 872 rushing yards with 5 TDs.  That's 4780 yards, and 31 TDs.  From a stat perspective you shouldn't punish him for winning so much that he didn't have to play.  Allen had 4306 and 524 so 4930 and 44 total TDs.  The yardage is similar but allen had 13 more total TDs.  Jackson lost 6 fumbles to 4 for Allen.  Allen threw 18 INTs vs. 7 (projected 8 as i added one for a hypothetical stat projection).  So 14 turnovers vs. 22 for Allen individually.  

 

So after reading that... with the offenses as a whole having similar yardage and point totals.  Who is inherently biased?  The media?  Or the bills fans who ignore any of the factors above since it doesn't fit their narrative.  

MVP is a largely narrative driven award and you can see it happen in real-time during the season following the media. Lamar happened to be near the top of the MVP projections along with Purdy, Dak and Allen going into that 49ers game.

 

The media pushed very hard that it was the game to decide MVP (not sure if just to juice the ratings of a primetime game, or what). We all know that Jackson won (in a fairly pedestrian game by the way…It wasn’t Lamar out there intercepting Purdy). And that was that. Allen and Dak had some okay/good but not great games to end the season and the narrative was finished.

 

There is a heavy bias in your performances at the end of the season vs the beginning of the season. Allen also had a 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins, it just happened months earlier. That doesn’t work for a nice media narrative. Your strongest performances have to be at the end of the season.

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Here are the following reasons that should be considered. 

• 28 turnovers (Buffalo) vs. 19 turnovers (Baltimore)
• 11-6 (Buffalo) vs. 13-4 (Baltimore 13-3 in games started by LJ, he sat week 18).  The 3 losses in games Jackson started were by 3, 7 and 2 points.  
• Each team had similar total yards, baltimore scored a few more points on the year even with jackson sitting week 18.
• Buffalo fired their Offensive coordinator mid-season, not good optics.
• Jackson did not have "help" in the way of pro bowl WRs, and his pro bowl TE was hurt midseason.  They also had a mash list at running back.  0 1000 yard receiver, or 1000 yard rusher.  
• The last regular season game he played in 2023 (playoffs don't matter for MVP).  They beat miami by 37, and he had 5 TDs and 300+ on 21 passes and another 35 on the ground.  
• Adding Jacksons averages to his totals would get him 3908 Passing yards 26/8 and 872 rushing yards with 5 TDs.  Thats 4780 yards, and 31 TDs.  Allen had 4306 and 524 so 4930 and 44 total TDs.  The yardage is similar but allen had 13 more total TDs.  Jackson lost 6 fumbles to 4 for Allen.  Allen threw 18 INTs vs. 7 (projected 8 as i added one for a hypothetical stat projection).  So 14 turnovers vs. 22 for Allen individually.  

So after reading that... with the offenses as a whole having similar yardage and point totals.  Who is inherently biased?  The media?  Or the bills fans who ignore any of the factors above since it doesn't fit their narrative.  

So Buffalo had one “ pro bowl” WR - largely on his past reputation. Greg Cosell said he reviewed film of Diggs from the last two seasons and stated that in his opinion Diggs hadn’t been a “ # 1 caliber WR” since 2021. Allen had a lot more TDs as you stated. That’s a good argument for him being the “ most valuable player” . What does the Bills OC being fired have to do with it ? 
Anyway, the media will never vote Josh Allen as MVP in my opinion. Yes the media is inherently biased. They tell us who they are all the time with their commentary. You can take them at their word or just ignore it if you wish. 

[Low Positive]

5 hours ago, eball said:

 

Wrong on so many levels.  I can’t think of a Bills fan who would want Lamar instead of Josh.  There is literally no reason to “hate” on Lamar; it’s not as if he voted himself MVP.  It is reasonable, however, to question the voters who continue to ignore Josh’s production and, by comparison, his success in the playoffs.

 

As for Lamar’s play last night…he did what he could to keep them in the game.  He’s not a refined, accurate passer and never has been, but he made play after play and was a toe away from sending that game to OT.  He’s always going to miss throws you think he should make, but he’s also going to make plays only he can make.

 

I probably wasn't clear enough. I'm not talking about our opinions. I'm talking about everyone else's. There are a lot of NFL fans and commentators who would take Lamar over Josh and we have to hear that all the time. So, we get defensive. In fact, I really like Lamar. He's fun to watch. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

So Buffalo had one “ pro bowl” WR - largely on his past reputation. Greg Cosell said he reviewed film of Diggs from the last two seasons and stated that in his opinion Diggs hadn’t been a “ # 1 caliber WR” since 2021. Allen had a lot more TDs as you stated. That’s a good argument for him being the “ most valuable player” . What does the Bills OC being fired have to do with it ? 
Anyway, the media will never vote Josh Allen as MVP in my opinion. Yes the media is inherently biased. They tell us who they are all the time with their commentary. You can take them at their word or just ignore it if you wish. 

 

The offenses were similar in yards and points as a whole.  Allen had Cook who was a better running back than anyone baltimore had, and diggs who despite relying upon reputation still had 1200 yards and 8 TDs.  
 

Buffalo fans often talk about Allen having to do a lot on his own, but so does Jackson.  Being 2nd in the NFL in interceptions can't be just thrown out because he scored more individual TDs.  The team as a whole turned it over 9 more times than Baltimore, and lost 2 more games because of it (3 if you include the fact that starters sat week 18).

Edited September 6 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

MVP is a largely narrative driven award and you can see it happen in real-time during the season following the media. Lamar happened to be near the top of the MVP projections along with Purdy, Dak and Allen going into that 49ers game.

 

The media pushed very hard that it was the game to decide MVP (not sure if just to juice the ratings of a primetime game, or what). We all know that Jackson won (in a fairly pedestrian game by the way…It wasn’t Lamar out there intercepting Purdy). And that was that. Allen and Dak had some okay/good but not great games to end the season and the narrative was finished.

 

There is a heavy bias in your performances at the end of the season vs the beginning of the season. Allen also had a 5 TD perfect passer rating game vs the Dolphins, it just happened months earlier. That doesn’t work for a nice media narrative. Your strongest performances have to be at the end of the season.

 

Beating the best team in the NFC, with about 300 total yards and 2 TDs with no turnovers isn't exactly pedestrian.  Purdy was the chief MVP competition and fell on his face yes, but Jackson had a solid game against a top defense.  

 

Allen did himself no favors down the stretch with ugly games against the chargers and patriots, and that weird cowboys game where he didn't have to do anything at all.  

[Boatdrinks]

12 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

The offenses were similar in yards and points as a whole.  Allen had Cook who was a better running back than anyone baltimore had, and diggs who despite relying upon reputation still had 1200 yards and 8 TDs.  
 

Buffalo fans often talk about Allen having to do a lot on his own, but so does Jackson.  Being 2nd in the NFL in interceptions can't be just thrown out because he scored more individual TDs.  The team as a whole turned it over 9 more times than Baltimore, and lost 2 more games because of it (3 if you include the fact that starters sat week 18).

Were not judging offenses as a whole. We are judging the most valuable player . A lot more TDs were scored by Josh Allen. Hence , he’s more valuable. 

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Buffalo outgained baltimore by less than 100 yards, and baltimore outscored buffalo by 32.  So as offenses, they are comparable.  Baltimore had a greater yards per play total, even with Huntley starting 1 game.  Buffalo had 28 offensive turnovers, to Baltimore's 19.  Buffalo had Diggs, Baltimore had Flowers and the husk of beckham with 1/2 a season of Andrews.  Baltimore also used like 7 running backs, and Jackson was the leading rusher.  

 

The same narrative that Allen carries too much of the team falls on Lamar.  

I dont  think Allen will win anything either if that matters.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So  two MVPs at 27 doesn’t make you a top 10 qb? That’s a tough standard. 
 

and this is where fantasy football has ruined football (and I love fantasy).  The Ravens were curb stomping teams last year. There is so stat they were only trailing in a game for like 15 minutes all season. A dime a dozen Gus Edwards had 13 tds. I guess to a real “MVP” Lamar should stat padded in second halves where they had double digit leads and audible to qb sneaks at the 1. It’s silly. 
 

Allen could have 15 less tds this year and be a better qb. And if that happens and the Bills are good, he will be in MVp consideration. 

 

No it doesnt.  First of all, one of those MVPs isnt real IMO.  The MVP is an award thats becoming as big of a joke as the pro bowl is.  Its based on which QB gets the one seed.  QB is the most important part but its still a team game.  Surrounding cast and coaching matters.  As does what schedule you happen to play that year.

 

IDGAF about fantasy football.  I dont get involved in it.  I dont even listen to WGR anymore because I turn it on and all I hear from schoop and bulldog for their entire set is nothing but about gambling and fantasy football.  

 

Lamar is not a good passing QB.  I dont care what team stat you throw at me, year after year Lamar is bottom of the league in passing.  He is an amazing athlete so as a "duel threat" at least that part of the duel he is the best at it.  To me to be a top 10 QB, you have to be good at passing the ball too.  He isn't.

Edited September 6 by Scott7975