Josh getting MVP love

[Billl]

9 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Allen also has over 350 carries over that period whereas Mahomes only has about 200, which goes a long way explaining the fumble differential.

And also the rushing TD differential.

[Simon]

Just now, Billl said:

And also the rushing TD differential.

 

We can pick nits 'til the cows come home, but they are 1a and 1b.

I give Mahomes a slight edge, but when they go head to head it's likely just going to end up whoever has the ball last.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

How is there a difference?  A fumble is a fumble.  Is an interception better if your defense gets a stop?  

Huh?  A fumble is not a turnover if the offense does not lose possession.  If Josh fumbles but recovers the ball himself or someone else on the offense recovers it like Kincaid, Dawkins, etc then it’s not a turnover nor is it counted a turnover.  An interception is always a turnover.  

Are you saying you don’t know this?

Edited September 5 by Alphadawg7

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Huh?  A fumble is not a turnover of the offense don’t lose possession.  If Josh fumbles but recovers the ball himself or someone like Kincaid recovers it, it’s not a turnover nor is it counted a turnover.  
 

Are you saying you don’t know this?

 

I think he's saying that putting the ball on the ground should be considered a mistake, regardless of who picks it up.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

If Josh gets this team to the playoffs with this group of receivers not only should he win unanimous MVP they should start fitting him for a gold jacket. 
Curtis Samuel as your number 1 receiver says it all. 

[Boatdrinks]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

If Josh throws for more than 9 interceptions he'll be immediately formulated out of the NFL's MVP criteria. 17 should already have at least one. When do players like Lamar get disqualified for their garbage playoff performances every year....and just remember folks the NFL says for every Allen interception,  you deduct 2 tds.

INTs are just a convenient excuse to dismiss him. It’s about advancing certain narratives , and for various reasons Josh does not fit the “chosen” criteria.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I think he's saying that putting the ball on the ground should be considered a mistake, regardless of who picks it up.

 

I get that…But he was lumping it in with turnovers.  If Allen loses the ball slightly on the way to the ground but regains control, it’s still a “fumble” on the stat sheet even though it was not the same level of mistake as an actual turnover is.  
 

So when totaling his “turnovers” only actual turnovers should be counted IMO. 

Edited September 5 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

We can pick nits 'til the cows come home, but they are 1a and 1b.

I give Mahomes a slight edge, but when they go head to head it's likely just going to end up whoever has the ball last.

Ask that guy if those 1yard shovel passes should be knocked off Mahomes total

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ask that guy if those 1yard shovel passes should be knocked off Mahomes total

 

I can barely tolerate you sumbitches; I'm not going to start *%@#ing with the tourists.

[Billl]

38 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I get that…But he was lumping it in with turnovers.  If Allen loses the ball slightly on the way to the ground but regains control, it’s still a “fumble” on the stat sheet even though it was not the same level of mistake as an actual turnover is. 

Then let’s subtract fumble recoveries from the total.  Mahomes has 19 fumbles and 10 fumble recoveries in that timeframe.  Allen has 28 fumbles and 8 fumble recoveries.

 

I’m not even sure what you’re arguing at this point.  It seems you think that there’s some “narrative” (a very popular term here) that prevents MVP voters from properly evaluating players.  And by “properly evaluating players”, I mean counting passing touchdowns and rushing touchdowns and interceptions but not fumbles except when your teammate doesn’t recover the fumble but possibly if you recover your own fumble (but upon further evaluation of who actually recovers more of their own fumbles, probably not). 

 

That’s one way to look at it.  Another way is to say that Josh has a ton of TDs in the past 3 seasons but also has 47 INTs and 28 fumbles, and that gets factored into the equation.  He’s a great player.  He’s been top 5 in MVP voting 3 times in the last 4 seasons.  Nobody is out to get him.  In fact, he somehow got an MVP vote in 2022 when Mahomes had more total TDs, fewer INTs, fewer fumbles, and threw for 1000 more yards.  48 out of 50 voters had Mahomes as MVP that year.  Josh had one of the other two votes.  In 2023, 49 out of 50 voters had Lamar as MVP.  The other voted for Josh.  

 

So who is right?  Is it the 96% of voters who voted for Mahomes in 2022 and the 98% of voters who voted for Jackson in 2023, or is it the one guy who voted for Josh each year?

[Billl]

42 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ask that guy if those 1yard shovel passes should be knocked off Mahomes total

I’m not the one arguing to disregard stats based on whether or not I like them.  A TD is a TD.  A fumble is a fumble.

[zow2]

Josh Allen could amass 55 TDs this season and they will give it to the other guy who’s on the 1 seed team and far fewer TDs.

[Bferra13]

Josh can't win this award unless he gets the #1 seed and literally blows the competition away (honestly he's done the latter already). The voters have an agenda. It is what it is.

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, Billl said:

Then let’s subtract fumble recoveries from the total.  Mahomes has 19 fumbles and 10 fumble recoveries in that timeframe.  Allen has 28 fumbles and 8 fumble recoveries.

 

I’m not even sure what you’re arguing at this point.  It seems you think that there’s some “narrative” (a very popular term here) that prevents MVP voters from properly evaluating players.  And by “properly evaluating players”, I mean counting passing touchdowns and rushing touchdowns and interceptions but not fumbles except when your teammate doesn’t recover the fumble but possibly if you recover your own fumble (but upon further evaluation of who actually recovers more of their own fumbles, probably not). 

 

That’s one way to look at it.  Another way is to say that Josh has a ton of TDs in the past 3 seasons but also has 47 INTs and 28 fumbles, and that gets factored into the equation.  He’s a great player.  He’s been top 5 in MVP voting 3 times in the last 4 seasons.  Nobody is out to get him.  In fact, he somehow got an MVP vote in 2022 when Mahomes had more total TDs, fewer INTs, fewer fumbles, and threw for 1000 more yards.  48 out of 50 voters had Mahomes as MVP that year.  Josh had one of the other two votes.  In 2023, 49 out of 50 voters had Lamar as MVP.  The other voted for Josh.  

 

So who is right?  Is it the 96% of voters who voted for Mahomes in 2022 and the 98% of voters who voted for Jackson in 2023, or is it the one guy who voted for Josh each year?

Josh also often gets hit with “most turnovers”, which would only include lost fumbles but a lot people mistakenly count his non turnover fumbles and get an incorrect total.
 

To be clear, I wasn’t arguing anything, I only asked because you hadn’t specified and I didn’t know which total that referred to.  

[dma0034]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

Allen also has 28 fumbles over that period.  128 TDs vs 75 picks and fumbles compared to 111 TDs vs 58 picks and fumbles.   So he’s got 17 more TDs than Mahomes but also 17 more INTs and fumbles.

 

12 lost to Mahomes 7... I also didn't include rushing Totals, which would make it go Allen's way.

 

So 17 more TDs vs 13 more TOs. So he turns the ball over once more every 4 games and gives you an extra TD every 3. That's comparing him to the QB that is considered the #1 QB. He has done this with 3 different Offensive Coordinators, a weaker O-Line, a weaker run game (average yards per game w/o QB 2021: 92 vs 83, 2022: 95 vs 92, 2023: 83 vs 98) except last year when the Bills ran it because they wanted to be in a ball control offense. Their receiving threats have been on par since Kelce and Diggs have been pretty equal. Mahomes also got Rice last year and he is turning into a #1 and ofcourse: Andy Reid. Allen is asked to do more. He doesn't get bubble screens and TE shuffle passes for TDs.

[dma0034]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

I understand the reasoning.  It’s just flawed.  A fumble doesn’t suddenly become less or more of a mistake depending on what color jersey the person who falls on it is wearing.  

 

How about sacks? Should we talk about the 2nd worse thing a QB can do during a play? 

 

Let me ask you this: does an interception on a hail mary attempt at the end of a half matter?

 

Better yet: explain this to me: Bills @ Dolphins week 18. Bills have a 4th and 2 at the Dolphins 35. Allen looks to his left: everyone covered. He rolls out to his right with Dolphins LB closing in, he lobs a pass to the endzone that's intercepted. Because of that pick the Dolphins lose 15 yards.

 

Are those picks all the same? How about in the Broncos game when Davis has one bounce off his hands for a pick? Or the ball that Diggs had in his hands against the Jags that was a pick?

 

Mahomes first pick last year was a pick 6 because Toney couldn't catch a ball that hit him in his hands. Is that turnover the same?

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, DJB said:

 

 

 

Ha ha ha ha!  Nice! He always manages to crack me up. In a good way.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I think he's saying that putting the ball on the ground should be considered a mistake, regardless of who picks it up.

 

 

Of course. But their are degrees of mistakes. An INT is almost always unforgiveable unless it's on a Hail Mary, 4th down or doinks right off the receiver. 

 

Fumbles not as bad because right off the get go you have a 50/50 chance of recovering vs. 100% chance of losing the ball on an INT. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

So who is right?  Is it the 96% of voters who voted for Mahomes in 2022 and the 98% of voters who voted for Jackson in 2023, or is it the one guy who voted for Josh each year?

 

Mahomes deserved his. We all know Jackson did not last year. So yeah, that one guy was at least right last year. Jackson only won it because the Ravens defense beat the hell out of Brock Purdy and the 49ers offense in a late season game. If the 49ers win that game, it's probably CMC or Purdy winning the MVP. As the season actually went I think Allen definitely should have been MVP. 

[SoTier]

For those of you who missed GMFB yesterday, Jamie Erdahl picked Tua as her candidate for MVP and Peter Schrager picked Aaron Rodgers.