The Athletic Survey: Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson?

[without a drought]

Just now, DCofNC said:

They let people in Baltimore vote… that and idiots are the only ones that would vote vote Jackson over Allen.  Objectively speaking, Allen is superior to Jackson in everything meaningful as a qb.  Jackson is a slightly more dangerous runner and because of that, it opens things up for the offense.

I figure 50% Ravens fans and 50% NFL fans. A few Ravens fans asked if it was anonymous, then picked Allen.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

No, he’s not Josh Allen, but I see nothing wrong with him in the same group as Stafford.

 

Purdy starting on those Stafford Lions teams would have been riding the bench by the middle of his first season.

 

Since we're on the subject of most overrated QBs I will claim Purdy as my answer. An absolutely ridiculous amount of offensive talent and elite offensive coaching, and he still couldn't win a Super Bowl with his defense holding the Chiefs to 3 points in the 1st half. I'll agree he is a better QB than Garrappolo simply because he makes less horrific mistakes, but his limitations were the single biggest factor in why they didn't win it all last year. He is the poster child for why context matters when talking about QBs.

 

Edited August 30 by HappyDays

[DCofNC]

14 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

If you look at Jimmy Gs stats in Vegas and on how he played, he was downright awful. 77 passer rating and more INTs than TDS 

 

Compared to 103 passer rating and 16 TDS and 4 INts in SF (before he got hurt the year prior)

 

And for sure I'm not saying anyone will have success in SF- You have to be a smart QB who plays within the structure of the system. Purdy does that very well in fairness to him.

 

Lance does not seem like a smart QB at all, which is probably a big reason to why he didn't have success there

 

I completely agree, the system makes QBs look better than they may be in others, which is partially why I was baffled that Lance even got a 4th round pick in return.  He’s awful, the fact Dallas fans thought he was the future shows how delusional the average fan base is.  
 

I think Jimmy in LV is a little unfair, the whole team was a poop show and if we were going judge fairly, I think they would have been better w him vs O’Connell, after Pierce took over, but coach seemed to like the rookie.  I look at Jimmy G, when Healthy, which is nearly never, and he has been a decent QB.  

 

I think Purdy is significantly better.   Is Purdy kind of spoiled with all those weapons? FOR SURE.  Is he getting a ton out of them though?  Yes, he is.  I look at a guy like Goff and I think that’s kind of where Purdy fits.  He’s got talent, but if you don’t give him something to work with, he’s not going to do it ALL by himself.  He’s tough, he’s smart, he accurate and has enough arm to make any throw.  He’s pretty solidly between the group of Giants at the top and well before the guys that don’t even look great with talent.  To me that’s tier 2, I guess you can argue for tier 3, but I see him as better than those guys.

[DapperCam]

6 hours ago, loedward22 said:

I’d take Allen over Mahomes. I can’t stand Mahomes and think his success is half (or more) because of his coaches. 

 

I view Allen and Mahomes as pretty similar in terms of ability. The bottom line is that Mahomes has had a HOF coach that was already known as a QB whisperer, a potential HOF WR in Hill, and the GOAT TE. Also a defense and special teams that have performed very well in the playoffs.

 

Allen has had 4 OCs in 6 seasons (Dennison, Daboll, Dorsey, Brady). A defensive HC that isn’t involved in the offense at all, and zero HOF level skill players. Also a defense and special teams that have performed terribly in the playoffs.

 

Mahomes on average has had a much better offensive line as well. Not to mention probably 20-30 “passing” TDs on gimmick plays inside the 5 yard line that are entirely based on scheme.

[DCofNC]

10 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

 

I view Allen and Mahomes as pretty similar in terms of ability. The bottom line is that Mahomes has had a HOF coach that was already known as a QB whisperer, a potential HOF WR in Hill, and the GOAT TE. Also a defense and special teams that have performed very well in the playoffs.

 

Allen has had 4 OCs in 6 seasons (Dennison, Daboll, Dorsey, Brady). A defensive HC that isn’t involved in the offense at all, and zero HOF level skill players. Also a defense and special teams that have performed terribly in the playoffs.

 

Mahomes on average has had a much better offensive line as well. Not to mention probably 20-30 “passing” TDs on gimmick plays inside the 5 yard line that are entirely based on scheme.

I think if you reverse the QBs the results would be the same, KC would still be winning and people would be question Mahomes.  I take NOTHING away from Mahomes, he’s awesome.  I do feel the choice of McClappy as coach is a major hindrance to Allen.  When you have a guy that wants to spend time, resources and money on the defense first and leave all the offensive duty to a coordinator, you lose talent to the D and all it takes is the coordinator getting a new gig to have to start over on the most important things again.  If you have a HC who is offensive minded, your scheme stays the same and the QB can grow within it.  For this reason, I’d never hire a defense first HC.   Now I know I’ll get the Bellicheck argument, but that offense was clearly his.  Nothing changed when coordinators left, same plans.  Here it’s a whole new system every time and it’s been a revolving door of new coordinators.

[DapperCam]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I think if you reverse the QBs the results would be the same, KC would still be winning and people would be question Mahomes.  I take NOTHING away from Mahomes, he’s awesome.  I do feel the choice of McClappy as coach is a major hindrance to Allen.  When you have a guy that wants to spend time, resources and money on the defense first and leave all the offensive duty to a coordinator, you lose talent to the D and all it takes is the coordinator getting a new gig to have to start over on the most important things again.  If you have a HC who is offensive minded, your scheme stays the same and the QB can grow within it.  For this reason, I’d never hire a defense first HC.   Now I know I’ll get the Bellicheck argument, but that offense was clearly his.  Nothing changed when coordinators left, same plans.  Here it’s a whole new system every time and it’s been a revolving door of new coordinators.

Brady was also a “cerebral” type QB. So the offense was really his. Allen isn’t that type of QB (really no current QB is).

[C.Biscuit97]

I get why Bills fans don’t like a rival qb but I personally think it’s weird to hate on Lamar. People think Allen got hated on (he did) but Lamar went at the end of the 1st, after winning a Heisman. And morons said he won’t even make it as a qb in the nfl, after winning a Heisman. 
 

he plays a unique style and isn’t exactly loaded with offensive weapons. Jackson and Allen are pretty similar great stories. 

21 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I think if you reverse the QBs the results would be the same, KC would still be winning and people would be question Mahomes.  I take NOTHING away from Mahomes, he’s awesome.  I do feel the choice of McClappy as coach is a major hindrance to Allen.  When you have a guy that wants to spend time, resources and money on the defense first and leave all the offensive duty to a coordinator, you lose talent to the D and all it takes is the coordinator getting a new gig to have to start over on the most important things again.  If you have a HC who is offensive minded, your scheme stays the same and the QB can grow within it.  For this reason, I’d never hire a defense first HC.   Now I know I’ll get the Bellicheck argument, but that offense was clearly his.  Nothing changed when coordinators left, same plans.  Here it’s a whole new system every time and it’s been a revolving door of new coordinators.

This is where McDermott gets too much hate. Allen joined a playoff team and has consistently had top 5 defenses to support his growth. Daboll was an awesome OC and Allen had him for 4 years, which never happens with successful OCs. 
 

there is this weird thing that Bills fans like to do and pretend Allen was just awesome right away. Allen worked his butf off to be awesome and has one of the unique skill sets of any qb ever. But the Bills, especially Sean, have done an amazing job supporting his growth. 
 

people act like McDermott is Nate Hackett (offensive guy!) instead of a top 10 head coach. 

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I get why Bills fans don’t like a rival qb but I personally think it’s weird to hate on Lamar.

 

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that not being impressed with Lamar Jackson has anything to do with Josh Allen.

I wouldn't feel any differently about him if he was playing in the NFC, or in Buffalo for that matter.

He can be entertaining to watch, but he's a wildly overrated QB.

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that not being impressed with Lamar Jackson has anything to do with Josh Allen.

I wouldn't feel any differently about him if he was playing in the NFC, or in Buffalo for that matter.

He can be entertaining to watch, but he's a wildly overrated QB.

They are 58-19 in his starts and have a losing record when his backups play. They have had a very mid group of offensive weapons around him the majority of his career. Definitely needs to prove it in the playoffs but he’s really good.

 

and besides mahomes (insane but understandable), Jackson is the most hated on qb on this board. 

[The Jokeman]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They are 58-19 in his starts and have a losing record when his backups play. They have had a very mid group of offensive weapons around him the majority of his career. Definitely needs to prove it in the playoffs but he’s really good.

 

and besides mahomes (insane but understandable), Jackson is the most hated on qb on this board. 

I don't hate Jackson but hate that the media makes him out to be this elite QB when in reality he is not. Yes he has elite running skills for the position but as a passer he is subpar and to me if a QB can't throw then he's severely limited and why think he should be in the top 10 QB discussion of the modern age not the top 4 where he often is listed. 

[Simon]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They are 58-19 in his starts and have a losing record when his backups play. They have had a very mid group of offensive weapons around him the majority of his career. Definitely needs to prove it in the playoffs but he’s really good.

 

and besides mahomes (insane but understandable), Jackson is the most hated on qb on this board. 

 

The Ravens success is entirely about coaching and defense.

Having to run such a limited offense with a one-read QB who is utterly incapable of seeing the entire field is a credit to John Harbaugh's ability, imo.

And I love Mahomes; I think he's brilliant and could watch him play all day.

[zow2]

1 hour ago, DapperCam said:

 

I view Allen and Mahomes as pretty similar in terms of ability. The bottom line is that Mahomes has had a HOF coach that was already known as a QB whisperer, a potential HOF WR in Hill, and the GOAT TE. Also a defense and special teams that have performed very well in the playoffs.

 

Allen has had 4 OCs in 6 seasons (Dennison, Daboll, Dorsey, Brady). A defensive HC that isn’t involved in the offense at all, and zero HOF level skill players. Also a defense and special teams that have performed terribly in the playoffs.

 

Mahomes on average has had a much better offensive line as well. Not to mention probably 20-30 “passing” TDs on gimmick plays inside the 5 yard line that are entirely based on scheme.

 

I agree about the coaching. But i will say this about Mahomes.  When the game is on the line, and KC absolutely needs a drive or to convert some 3rd and 4th downs along the way… Mahomes is better than all of them including Allen.

[billsrul120]

12 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

I agree about the coaching. But i will say this about Mahomes.  When the game is on the line, and KC absolutely needs a drive or to convert some 3rd and 4th downs along the way… Mahomes is better than all of them including Allen.

 

This is not the only way to measure what you are getting at but according to pro football reference, Mahomes has 14 4th quarter comebacks and Allen has 13.  Pretty comparable. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

40 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I get why Bills fans don’t like a rival qb but I personally think it’s weird to hate on Lamar. People think Allen got hated on (he did) but Lamar went at the end of the 1st, after winning a Heisman. And morons said he won’t even make it as a qb in the nfl, after winning a Heisman. 
 

he plays a unique style and isn’t exactly loaded with offensive weapons. Jackson and Allen are pretty similar great stories. 

This is where McDermott gets too much hate. Allen joined a playoff team and has consistently had top 5 defenses to support his growth. Daboll was an awesome OC and Allen had him for 4 years, which never happens with successful OCs. 
 

there is this weird thing that Bills fans like to do and pretend Allen was just awesome right away. Allen worked his butf off to be awesome and has one of the unique skill sets of any qb ever. But the Bills, especially Sean, have done an amazing job supporting his growth. 
 

people act like McDermott is Nate Hackett (offensive guy!) instead of a top 10 head coach. 

Don't you think part of the hate for Lamar is race based? People say he can't throw the ball. His college completion percentage was 3 points higher than Allen's. His completion % had been in the mid 60s ever since his second year. And as you pointed out with far less talent at WR position 

He has a career 64% comp % and a 125/45 TD/INT ratio

 

All that said, he does sound as dumb as Leodis when they interview him.

 

I don't think anyone pretends Allen was great right away. What he showed quickly was crazy athleticism. While many of us saw glimpses of what he could become, there were plenty on this board that wanted to draft a new QB after year two. Those posters know who they are.

 

I just don't agree with your premise that his development is due to McDermott.  Beane should get more credit for getting him Diggs. McD wanted a balanced offense and Daboll let Allen keep firing. Daboll had his issues in the red zone but he is the guy probably most responsible for Allen's improvement.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

35 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I don't hate Jackson but hate that the media makes him out to be this elite QB when in reality he is not. Yes he has elite running skills for the position but as a passer he is subpar and to me if a QB can't throw then he's severely limited and why think he should be in the top 10 QB discussion of the modern age not the top 4 where he often is listed. 

What evidence do you have he can't throw? His QB rating is 98. His completion percentage is in the mid 60s. Almost a 3:1 TD to INT ratio. He has a career 7.5 YPA compared to Allen's 7.2. 

 

Please enlighten us on why you think he can't throw?

 

For transparency sake, I have him fifth 

1. Mahomes 1a. Allen 3. Burrow 4. Herbert 5. Jackson 

Edited August 30 by Ethan in Cleveland

[GoBills808]

29 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

I agree about the coaching. But i will say this about Mahomes.  When the game is on the line, and KC absolutely needs a drive or to convert some 3rd and 4th downs along the way… Mahomes is better than all of them including Allen.

[T.E.]

Would be very interesting the see the alternate universes where Allen is a Chief and Raven. I think you're looking at multiple SB appearances for him under each scenario.

[Airseven]

Jackson deserves to be placed higher in the silly "rankings" these days, but I'd still take Allen over Jackson for my team right now. That being said, I'd also take Stroud and Love over Allen. It's complicated. 

[first_and_ten]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:28 AM, Sierra Foothills said:

This needs to be mentioned and not buried in the "ESPN Player Survey" topic.

 

The Athletic, in its newsletter "The Pulse" polled its readers with the question:

 

 Which QB would you rather have quarterbacking your team, Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson?

 

Unfortunately The Athletic is a paid subscription so I can't link it... and moreover there is not yet an article accompanying the poll, just the email newsletter "The Pulse." Finally no figures are given as to the number of respondents, only the percentages.

 

The results... Allen 63.8% Jackson 36.2%

 

From the email newsletter "The Pulse":

 

"Just, wow

This was, frankly, unexpected. Pulse readers overwhelmingly would take Josh Allen over Lamar Jackson, a stunning blowout that leaves me with more questions than before. I almost wish we had included a box to explain reasoning. 

 

Two points to make: 

Jackson and Allen are truly the ideal comparison partners. Both entered the league in 2018, are dynamic dual-threat QBs and have generally played on winning teams. Both have made it as far as the AFC title game, but the progress stops there.
 

Allen leads in total yards (26,314 vs. 21,145) and, per our point yesterday, has been a little more durable. He’s played in 94 games to Jackson’s 86. And yet, Jackson has two MVPs. Allen has zero. 

I just don’t see how Allen is such a bigger favorite, but I digress. Las Vegas agrees with you all, too: Allen (+850) has the second-highest MVP odds this year per BetMGM, while Jackson (+2000) is down at No. 10. Woof."

 

Chris Branch

 

On a related note, The Athletic's Mike Sando did his annual Quarterback Tiers. Again this is behind a paywall.

 

"The 2024 QB Tiers results are here, complete with commentary from the 50 NFL coaches and executives who were granted anonymity to share candid evaluations. The panel consisted of seven general managers, eight head coaches, 12 coordinators, 12 executives, eight assistant coaches and three involved in coaching/analytics. Each voter placed 30 veteran quarterbacks into five tiers, from best (Tier 1) to worst (Tier 5). Quarterbacks were then ranked by average vote and placed into tiers based on vote distribution, beginning with Mahomes, whose 1.00 average vote reflected his status as the only unanimous Tier 1 selection. No QBs landed in Tier 5, although some received Tier 5 votes. The survey excludes rookies because voters have not seen them play in the NFL."

 

Tier 1 (Quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure-passing situations. He has no real holes in his game).

 

Patrick Mahomes

Joe Burrow

Josh Allen

 

Tier 2 (Quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure-passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game).

 

Lamar Jackson

Matthew Stafford

Justin Herbert

Aaron Rodgers

CJ Stroud

Dak Prescott

Jared Goff

Jalen Hurts

Brock Purdy

Kirk Cousins

Jordan Love

 

 

 

Thank You for this!!!

4 minutes ago, T.E. said:

Would be very interesting the see the alternate universes where Allen is a Chief and Raven. I think you're looking at multiple SB appearances for him under each scenario.

 

I absolutely agree!!

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

 

I agree about the coaching. But i will say this about Mahomes.  When the game is on the line, and KC absolutely needs a drive or to convert some 3rd and 4th downs along the way… Mahomes is better than all of them including Allen.

I guess I just disagree. Mahomes has had some high profile comebacks in the playoffs and superbowl, but in terms of absolute numbers Allen and Mahomes are basically equal. Also having HOF pass catchers, a HOF play caller, and superior o-line play makes it easier to come back when the game is on the line.

 

4th quarter comebacks:

Mahomes - 14

Allen - 13

 

Game winning drives:

Mahomes - 16

Allen - 19