The Athletic Survey: Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson?

[loedward22]

14 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I will take Allen against any QB outside of Mahomes 

I’d take Allen over Mahomes. I can’t stand Mahomes and think his success is half (or more) because of his coaches. 

[machine gun kelly]

17 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Josh really needs to go into No More Mr Nice Guy mode this year. 

You must have been listening to WGR yesterday morning as Jeremy was funny in posting Josh should start trashing other teams or players not on our schedule.  
 

Regarding the article, I agree with the poll. It’s spot on and it’s clear the top 3.  The problem with Burrow is he’s often hurt.  When he plays, he’s good, but he can’t seem to make it a full season.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

There is tier 1 but several of those guys in tier 2 are really tier 1a.

Herbert, Stroud, Jackson, and Prescott are better than all the others in tier 2.

 

Tua is interestingly not listed. He's better than Cousins, Goff, Love, and Rodgers at this point. He's as good as Hurts, Purdy, and Stafford.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Billznut said:

Allen has a lower career INT rate than Montana, Manning and Marino, and that’s just amongst some of the greats. You never ever heard one complaint about any of those 3 hall of famers being a turnover machine. Allen’s turnovers are mentioned every single time he is talked about nationally. So, yeah, the turnover talk is very very much overstated and it’s beyond stupid at this point. 

Far different eras from what defenders could do to WR to the current play calling 

[Ray Stonada]

Allen is clearly better than Jackson at playoff football, which is what matters.

 

But Josh's turnovers are mentioned nationally because they are too high. His interception rate has been increasing.

 

2018: 10 TD, 12 INT

2019: 20 TD, 9 INT

2020: 37 TD, 10 INT

2021: 36 TD, 15 INT

2022: 35 TD, 14 INT

2023: 29 TD, 18 INT

 

I hope he bounces back this season and throws 40 TDs and 10 INTs. 

 

[Billznut]

24 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Far different eras from what defenders could do to WR to the current play calling 

You missed the point. You’re talking about the stats. The numbers are what they are. I’m talking about the media’s narrative where Allen is attacked daily over turnovers and those QBS were always praised as gods. There is a media and national false narrative over JA’s turnovers, that never was attributed to others in the past. Thats a fact. 

[artmalibu]

MVP is a joke! 

 

To say Jackson is a dual threat is a joke!  I dont think Jackson scares anyone with his arm. 

 

To say Allen is overrated is a joke, he has led the league in TDs 4 years in  row.  Allen had 3 OCs in that stretch with one being fired mid year.  

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

It’s a joke that this is even a question to some people 🤣

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Billznut said:

You missed the point. You’re talking about the stats. The numbers are what they are. I’m talking about the media’s narrative where Allen is attacked daily over turnovers and those QBS were always praised as gods. There is a media and national false narrative over JA’s turnovers, that never was attributed to others in the past. Thats a fact. 

You missed my point. Those great QBs in their eras weren't leading the NFL in INT or turnovers. The notable exception I found was Marino in 1986 had 23 INT( 623 att and 44 TD). Their rate of turnovers was just higher compared to now. In 1986 and 1988  there were 10 DBs with 7 INT or more. In 2023 there were 2.

As great as Allen is you can't whitewash his turnover issue. You can explain it to some degree by his number of attempts and carries and those are valid points. It still doesn't take away the fact it is a problem that needs to get better. 

And actually they did talk about Elway turning the ball over too much in his early years. Same thing with the first year Peyton Manning played. 

[BillsFan130]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Huh?  Sorry, no disrespect, but this was not at all the case. Jimmy G has not looked good at all in SF.  He was a statue who had horrible pocket presence and terrible vision.  They won a playoff game (where weather was not a reason) because they ran the ball like 98% of the snaps to avoid Jimmy throwing it.  Not even Niners fans liked Jimmy G.  
 

Purdy immediately improved the offense by a mile when he came in for Jimmy because he could actually use his legs to by time, avoid pressure, and see the field better.  
 

Even when Jimmy got paid after starting 5-0 over his first 5 games there, his stats were meh.  Niner fans call him “Pornstar Jimmy” because he was more interested in banging pornstars than working on his craft.  

Sorry, there was no stretch of Jimmy G’s career in SF where he looked “pretty darn good”, let alone remotely as good as Purdy has been.  That offense went from meh to elite switching from Jimmy to Purdy and it’s exactly why he lost his job to Purdy.  

2019 Jimmy G threw for 4000 yards, 27 TDS and 13 INTs with a 102 passer rating. How do you not consider that good? 

 

Were they as good as Purdys numbers?

 

No but he also didn't have Aiyuk Or Mccafery at that time, and Deebo was still a baby .

 

And don't get me wrong I'm not saying Jimmy G is as good as Purdy. My point is if you're a smart QB who can play on schedule, you're going to have success in that SF offence 

Edited August 30 by BillsFan130

[Mr. WEO]

breaking news...

[MiltonWaddams]

22 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Josh really needs to go into No More Mr Nice Guy mode this year. 

I’d love to see Josh come out of the huddle every time with the attitude of Philip Rivers in his early years in San Diego.” I am going to ***** this other team up. They’ve got nothing on me. They suck.”

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

2019 Jimmy G threw for 4000 yards, 27 TDS and 13 INTs with a 102 passer rating. How do you not consider that good? 

 

Were they as good as Purdys numbers?

 

No but he also didn't have Aiyuk Or Mccafery at that time, and Deebo was still a baby .

 

And don't get me wrong I'm not saying Jimmy G is as good as Purdy. My point is if you're a smart QB who can play on schedule, you're going to have success in that SF offence 

I agree with your concept that a smart QB can thrive.  That said, I don’t think that’s as easy to find as you make it sound.  
 

Jimmy G has had stints in the league looking pretty good, he didn’t really lose the job in LV so much as they were going no where and had to see what they had, turned out to be a spark with O’Connell and a new coach.  

 

Lance looked like crap even being the 3rd overall pick, and many many guys have had decent starts to a career and fell off a cliff.  Purdy has something about him, he’s playing great football.  Would I put him out there with nothing and expect miracles? No, he’s not Josh Allen, but I see nothing wrong with him in the same group as Stafford.

[Watkins101]

20 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Brock Purdy helped lead SF to a Super Bowl in his 2nd season.  He threw for 4200 yards and had 31 TD passes.

 

He deserves to be right where he is.  

To be fair, last year he had: the best Rb in the league (not really even a debate, 300 more rushing yards than anybody else, 2nd in receiving, only off by 30 yards), the best TE in the league (though Kelce was close), and the ~3rd best Wr Duo in the league. The Wr is more of a debate, I put the dolphins and eagles ahead, but the Vikings, Bucs and maybe others have an argument there for sure. Regardless, it’s still a high end unit and the 49ers definitely have the best group of skill positions on offense in the game right now. Jimmy garrapolo had virtually identical stats in 2019 without having CMC or Aiyuk on the team, but he’s definitely not a “can carry his team” type of player. 

[hondo in seattle]

6 hours ago, Billznut said:

Allen has a lower career INT rate than Montana, Manning and Marino, and that’s just amongst some of the greats. You never ever heard one complaint about any of those 3 hall of famers being a turnover machine. Allen’s turnovers are mentioned every single time he is talked about nationally. So, yeah, the turnover talk is very very much overstated and it’s beyond stupid at this point. 

 

True.  But Allen's critics have noticed other stats.  For example, Josh was second in INTs last season.  The season before, he led the league in fumbles.

 

As Bills fans, we also know that Allen doesn't throw a lot of picks in the playoffs.  Or late in the game.  Or that he's often carrying the team on his back desperately trying to make plays when either his receivers aren't getting open or his OL isn't protecting him.  We know the bigger picture, not all NFL fans do, nor all the AP media guys who vote on the MVP.  Still, ball security hasn't been one of his strengths.  

[frostbitmic]

Neither has been to the Super Bowl unless they bought tickets

 

Lamar has won two MVP's but for what, he has no titles

 

They're both great runners

 

Josh has the better arm ... I'd take Josh every time.

[without a drought]

It's closer than I expected.

[DCofNC]

31 minutes ago, without a drought said:

It's closer than I expected.

They let people in Baltimore vote… that and idiots are the only ones that would vote vote Jackson over Allen.  Objectively speaking, Allen is superior to Jackson in everything meaningful as a qb.  Jackson is a slightly more dangerous runner and because of that, it opens things up for the offense.

[Chicken Boo]

45 minutes ago, Watkins101 said:

To be fair, last year he had: the best Rb in the league (not really even a debate, 300 more rushing yards than anybody else, 2nd in receiving, only off by 30 yards), the best TE in the league (though Kelce was close), and the ~3rd best Wr Duo in the league. The Wr is more of a debate, I put the dolphins and eagles ahead, but the Vikings, Bucs and maybe others have an argument there for sure. Regardless, it’s still a high end unit and the 49ers definitely have the best group of skill positions on offense in the game right now. Jimmy garrapolo had virtually identical stats in 2019 without having CMC or Aiyuk on the team, but he’s definitely not a “can carry his team” type of player. 

 

I really don't like the Garopollo comparison.  Purdy is clearly better and it was his 2nd season in the league.  His 2nd! 

 

He can't help who the players around him are.  He can only play the hand he is dealt. 

 

Tua has just as much offensive firepower.  What's his excuse?  Super Bowls are not easy to get to.  

[BillsFan130]

47 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I agree with your concept that a smart QB can thrive.  That said, I don’t think that’s as easy to find as you make it sound.  
 

Jimmy G has had stints in the league looking pretty good, he didn’t really lose the job in LV so much as they were going no where and had to see what they had, turned out to be a spark with O’Connell and a new coach.  

 

Lance looked like crap even being the 3rd overall pick, and many many guys have had decent starts to a career and fell off a cliff.  Purdy has something about him, he’s playing great football.  Would I put him out there with nothing and expect miracles? No, he’s not Josh Allen, but I see nothing wrong with him in the same group as Stafford.

If you look at Jimmy Gs stats in Vegas and on how he played, he was downright awful. 77 passer rating and more INTs than TDS 

 

Compared to 103 passer rating and 16 TDS and 4 INts in SF (before he got hurt the year prior)

 

And for sure I'm not saying anyone will have success in SF- You have to be a smart QB who plays within the structure of the system. Purdy does that very well in fairness to him.

 

Lance does not seem like a smart QB at all, which is probably a big reason to why he didn't have success there