SCBills Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 The first real test to see if the pro-life movement can get its act together. Im pro-life, but have to admit that we weren’t, at all, prepared post-Roe and have been haphazardly trying to legislate while getting out-messaged and out-funded 10:1, even being soundly defeated in ruby red states. Amendment 4 in Florida is the first time I’ve seen a coherent push from the pro-life side. If they can’t win this one, the movement needs to regroup, because you can’t keep taking L after L with no course correction. Will be an interesting one to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 11 minutes ago, SCBills said: The first real test to see if the pro-life movement can get its act together. Im pro-life, but have to admit that we weren’t, at all, prepared post-Roe and have been haphazardly trying to legislate while getting out-messaged and out-funded 10:1, even being soundly defeated in ruby red states. Amendment 4 in Florida is the first time I’ve seen a coherent push from the pro-life side. If they can’t win this one, the movement needs to regroup, because you can’t keep taking L after L with no course correction. Will be an interesting one to watch. Correct. I'm guessing it passes, just as every other pro-choice ballot measure has passed since Dobbs. So "leave it up to the people of the states" isn't good enough anymore? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backintheday544 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Correct. I'm guessing it passes, just as every other pro-choice ballot measure has passed since Dobbs. So "leave it up to the people of the states" isn't good enough anymore? The people in a state like Kansas went pro-choice, I’m sure FL will. I think the bigger impact is the President and Senate. You have a not well liked FL Senator on the ballot. Abortion will be on everyone’s mind. Will they vote let’s be pro-choice for the amendment and then vote for a not pro-choice President and unpopular Senator? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 28 Author Share Posted August 28 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Correct. I'm guessing it passes, just as every other pro-choice ballot measure has passed since Dobbs. So "leave it up to the people of the states" isn't good enough anymore? It sounds like it could get defeated. One of the Florida newspapers polled it and it is falling short of passing with more people voting against it as they learn more about it. But, as you said, every other pro-choice ballot measure has passed, even in the reddest of states, so… No, I’m completely fine leaving it up to the states. The pro-life movement needs to win hearts and minds, and right now they’ve been out-messaged and out-spent to a massive degree. Edited August 28 by SCBills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Thats a tough sell as most seem to support some form of choice. Pushing for bans, will push people out of the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 19 minutes ago, SCBills said: The pro-life movement needs to win hearts and minds, and right now they’ve been out-messaged and out-spent to a massive degree. I agree with this part. Edited August 28 by The Frankish Reich 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 18 minutes ago, SCBills said: It sounds like it could get defeated. One of the Florida newspapers polled it and it is falling short of passing with more people voting against it as they learn more about it. But, as you said, every other pro-choice ballot measure has passed, even in the reddest of states, so… No, I’m completely fine leaving it up to the states. The pro-life movement needs to win hearts and minds, and right now they’ve been out-messaged and out-spent to a massive degree. Polling? I have said it before, I think polling really misses younger voters. And they are the ones who will vote for the measure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Polling? I have said it before, I think polling really misses younger voters. And they are the ones who will vote for the measure And we don't have really good data on the accuracy of polling on these ballot propositions as opposed to elected offices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 28 Author Share Posted August 28 17 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: Thats a tough sell as most seem to support some form of choice. Pushing for bans, will push people out of the party. Thats essentially what’s on the ballot. Republicans pushed for a very strict abortion law, and got it through a red legislature & governor. Now Amendment 4 proposes an aggressive pro-abortion remedy, and asks voters to choose between strict restrictions or a wildly pro-choice remedy that they would not otherwise support. But that’s the risk run by pushing strict laws out the gate. Incremental gains should have been the strategy, clearly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr-Bills Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: Thats a tough sell as most seem to support some form of choice. Pushing for bans, will push people out of the party. Weird, almost like Americans actually like freedom of choice. Who would have thunk? Edited August 28 by Starr-Bills Freedom, Freedom, Freedom, Freedom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 6 minutes ago, SCBills said: Thats essentially what’s on the ballot. Republicans pushed for a very strict abortion law, and got it through a red legislature & governor. Now Amendment 4 proposes an aggressive pro-abortion remedy, and asks voters to choose between strict restrictions or a wildly pro-choice remedy that they would not otherwise support. But that’s the risk run by pushing strict laws out the gate. Incremental gains should have been the strategy, clearly. Which is why a wise Supreme Court would have stuck to the issue before it in Dobbs: the 15 week abortion ban. As the age of fetal viability shifts earlier through technology, it was prudent to examine Roe's strict trimester approach. The Supreme Court took that approach off the table and we're left with extreme positions. Such is pure democracy. The type the founders kind of warned against ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K D Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 14 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I agree with this part. You wouldn't agree with it if it was the other way around and the pro choice movement had to win the hearts and minds of voters. You only agree with it because you like the outcome Giving the states the power to choose is how it should be and if they choose abortion then that's the will of the people. The Dems would not be so forgiving or "inclusive" if the tables were turned. They are fascists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 And again: Trump is a Florida resident and Florida voter. Why can't he answer whether he's voting for or against Amendment 4? Does he really need more information? He's been running as the guy that will return abortion to the states. Now it's before his own state. So ... whaddya want, Donny? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 28 Author Share Posted August 28 (edited) 10 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Which is why a wise Supreme Court would have stuck to the issue before it in Dobbs: the 15 week abortion ban. As the age of fetal viability shifts earlier through technology, it was prudent to examine Roe's strict trimester approach. The Supreme Court took that approach off the table and we're left with extreme positions. Such is pure democracy. The type the founders kind of warned against ... This is where I am from an ethical standpoint & I think pro-life groups should focus on the tech piece, as we know babies can feel pain as early as 15 weeks, maybe earlier. (Likely earlier as we learn more about development through advances in technology) Its a truly ghoulish discourse because the right wants to act like all these late trimester abortions of healthy babies are happening.. they’re not, but in the second trimester, some are due to various issues outside health. But then the left wants to pretend the baby is akin to a blob of cells, which is hard to reconcile when a baby recoils as its life is taken by a needle headshot or dismemberment… Edited August 28 by SCBills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 If this amendment fails, maybe the anti-abortion crowd could shift focus from bans to addressing the root causes of why people get abortions. They’d probably find a good amount of support from the Dems too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K D Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Just now, ChiGoose said: If this amendment fails, maybe the anti-abortion crowd could shift focus from bans to addressing the root causes of why people get abortions. They’d probably find a good amount of support from the Dems too. They get abortions because they have all but abolished religion. Just do whatever feels good man, free love. When my parents were growing up it would have been so shameful for them to get an abortion that they would be outcasts for even discussing it. Some good old fashioned shame goes a long way. But in a society where Lizzo posts bikini pics and half of the country is like wow she is so brave and beautiful then there's no chance in fixing this. My body my choice...as long as it's not in regards to vaccines because then f me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 2 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: If this amendment fails, maybe the anti-abortion crowd could shift focus from bans to addressing the root causes of why people get abortions. They’d probably find a good amount of support from the Dems too. I think we need more information on this. We're stuck in the old 1970s Roe-era debate. The idea is that these are truly unintended pregnancies. No birth control; birth control failed; coerced sex/rape; etc. Yes, these things still happen, and too often. But we are also in an era with Plan B ("morning after pill") readily available. So why does a woman who has unprotected sex (assuming no unknown birth control failure) still seek an abortion at some much later time? I don't know the answer. The answer seems important to me. A lot of people including the Catholic Church think Plan B is still abortion; they also think an IUD is akin to abortion. So most people don't agree with that, and have no strenuous objection to ending the chance of a pregnancy even after "conception" may have occurred. But we're in a political environment where asking those questions isn't really allowed. It's almost as if both sides don't want to know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 minute ago, K D said: They get abortions because they have all but abolished religion. Just do whatever feels good man, free love. When my parents were growing up it would have been so shameful for them to get an abortion that they would be outcasts for even discussing it. Some good old fashioned shame goes a long way. But in a society where Lizzo posts bikini pics and half of the country is like wow she is so brave and beautiful then there's no chance in fixing this. My body my choice...as long as it's not in regards to vaccines because then f me! Well this is an unhinged rant not based on any reality. Just feelings and propaganda. For anyone who is curious as to why people actually get abortions: “The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.” Seems like policies promoting safe sex and contraceptives would reduce unwanted pregnancies while programs to make raising and caring for kids more affordable would reduce abortions for people who currently can’t afford to raise kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 3 minutes ago, K D said: in a society where Lizzo posts bikini pics Not to bring the discourse down a level or three, but ... ... forcing men to look at those pics before having sex strikes me as a very effective means of birth control. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K D Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 11 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Not to bring the discourse down a level or three, but ... ... forcing men to look at those pics before having sex strikes me as a very effective means of birth control. Ok now we are getting somewhere and coming up with solutions! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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