ESPN Player Survey...Allen Most Trash Talking Overrated QB in NFL

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Nobody will have more miscommunications with Josh Allen than Gabe Davis did.

NOBODY.

It literally cost them the Eagles game this season.

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See this is the crap that is so stupid. Why do you have to put down Jackson to prop up Allen? I’m sure Ravens fans do the same thing with Allen. Throw Burrow in there vice versa. 
 

Jackson has a 58-19 record as a nfl starter, 2 MVPs, and a Heisman. He’s really good. Burrow won a championship, got to a SB, and a Heisman. Allen came from no where to become at worst a top 5 qb (I’d put him 2).

 

moral of the story, the only qb who is not probably considered overrated by other fanbases is Mahomes (who some bills fans still don’t think is that good). 
 

however, this is the year where Allen will get the lion share of credit if he can get this group to make noise. 

Josh Allen wasn’t going to try hard but if he sees this poll, it’s on!!!!

 

Bills fans are very insecure about Allen. And I get it. He was doubted (I certainly did) and has become amazing. But it’s like the ugly dude who suddenly gets a beautiful girlfriend. They have to tell all their friends his pretty she is instead of just being happy they have a beautiful girlfriend. 
 

we have a beautiful Josh Allen. Who cares what other people think?

I think Jackson is excellent and one of the best, but the playoff thing is real and the sample size is now large enough: 

 

2-4 record; 57.4 completion percentage, 6 TDs, 6 INTs, 3 rushing TDs, 3 lost fumbles, a 75.7 passer rating, and an ungodly 11.8 percent sack rate. (9/9 TD to turnover rate)

 

Allen, on the other hand:

 

5-5 record; 64.6 completion rate; 21 TDs, 4 INTs, a 100.0 passer rating, 5 rushing TDs, 1 receiving TD, 2 lost fumbles, and a 5.7 percent sack rate. (27/6 TD to turnover rate)

 

The playoffs really matter.

Edited August 27 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I think Jackson is excellent and one of the best, but the playoff thing is real and the sample size is now large enough: 

 

2-4 record; 57.4 completion percentage, 6 TDs, 6 INTs, 3 rushing TDs, 3 lost fumbles, a 75.7 passer rating, and an ungodly 11.8 percent sack rate.

 

Allen, on the other hand:

 

5-5 record; 64.6 completion rate; 21 TDs, 4 INTs, a 100.0 passer rating, 5 rushing TDs, 2 lost fumbles, and a 5.7 percent sack rate.

 

The playoffs really matter.

Agree 100% and that’s why you can’t have him over Allen, Burrow, etc. 

 

 

[Jauronimo]

13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Geezus christ, you just can't help yourself.  The points I was referring to was this year under Brady compared to last year under Brady on why there are some caveats of differences.  Why the hell would I talk about any time of Diggs career prior to that?  Diggs was a top 3 WR for 2-3 years in the NFL when he first got here, I was one of his biggest fans, my dogs name is Diggs.  I was talking about the caveats from BRADY last year to BRADY this year and what he is WORKING with.  And the facts are, Diggs was HIGHLY inefficient the final 10 games last year.

 

And here you go again...you just IGNORED that I said his efficiency dropped in the SECOND HALF of the season in 2022 as well and went ahead and responded with something TOTALLY different to try and hang on desperately to trying to be right about something you were never right about.  

 

And again...you also brought Shakir back up when I said this has nothing to do with him and he was just used as a quick comparison to show the inefficient numbers you were ignorant to about Diggs.  But here you are again bringing him back up.  

 

Just stop.  Why people just insist on doubling down on missteps or mistaken comments is beyond me.  Rather than just realizing you misunderstood my point, which is fair, you keep trying to double down on your mistake to spin it still to somehow make me wrong about something you misunderstood in the first place.  Its maybe the thing I hate most about the board.

 

I understood what you wrote and what you have implied perfectly, because this is the least complicated issue I have dealt with today: Diggs is a highly inefficient player and this offense has improved in his absence by elevating more efficient players like Shakir.  

 

Despite understanding your point, your data, and your argument....I still disagree.  I disagree that Diggs is an inefficient player either historically or currently due to decline, I disagree that the offense has improved as a result of losing Diggs, and I disagree that Diggs replacements are better.  I believe Diggs had to go, but I do not believe we are the better for it. If Diggs is here and motivated, I believe he is still the best WR on the team by considerable margin  

 

I would consider an entire body of work when assessing a player's efficiency because, in my opinion, 10 games does not trump the other 118 games Diggs has played. Why wouldn't you want consider the entire body of work before confidently declaring that the offense improved by losing the best skill player on the team for the past four seasons?  What we can agree on is that once Brady took over, Diggs stats took a big hit.  But extrapolating the best 10 game stretch in one player's career and the worst 10 game stretch in another's to draw sweeping conclusions about the future success of this offense is a risky endeavor, especially when there are multiple factors at play. 

 

Diggs was never an inefficient player before so I find it difficult to believe that his talents suddenly declined as precipitously as his stats coincidentally once Brady took over play calling responsibilities.  Stefon Diggs statistics have consistently been in line with #1 WRs who command 150 targets per season.  If Brady can't get anything out of him, again I might have to look at Diggs 118 games and weigh them against Brady's 10 games at OC, and call into question Brady's ability as a coordinator.  If anything, this fact set has me more concerned about Brady because I have a much larger track record to rely on in assessing Diggs. Diggs yards per target stand out in particular over those 10 games.  I guess I don't fault Diggs for being asked to catch so many balls behind or at the line of scrimmage.  

 

You brought Shakir into this conversation in the first place and then declared I had to stop talking about Shakir.  I do not recognize your authority, and you will have to get comfortable with that.  Why bring him up in the first place if he is irrelevant to the discussion?  And why even bother comparing stats for a slot WR with 65 career targets to a #1 who had 160 targets last season? 

[Trogdor]

4 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

I'm still firmly in the camp that a lot of Allen's INTs were actually just Gabe Davis mistakes. They seemingly were never on the same page last season.

 

I'm not saying we've upgraded from Davis, it's a side grade at best, but I do expect Allen's INTs to drop this season. 

 

 

Allen makes plenty of bad throws without the WRs help lol. I just hope he works more under center with a play action this year. 

[JP51]

He can yap it up though, I see him talking all the time... Id love to hear him Miked up. On a side note, I literally just dont get the Lamar Jackson ratings... I see him as elite for sure but I am not putting him in my top 5. Maybe I have missed the boat (and that wont be the first or last time) but I see him as a vicious running threat with an above average passer at most with an acceptable NFL arm who gets injured a bunch. 

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See this is the crap that is so stupid. Why do you have to put down Jackson to prop up Allen? I’m sure Ravens fans do the same thing with Allen. Throw Burrow in there vice versa. 
 

Jackson has a 58-19 record as a nfl starter, 2 MVPs, and a Heisman. He’s really good. Burrow won a championship, got to a SB, and a Heisman. Allen came from no where to become at worst a top 5 qb (I’d put him 2).

 

I get your point to the other poster here, but I also do think it's somewhat of a fair response in an article naming the 5 most overrated players for that poster to share who they think is overrated.  And when doing so, its going to be about an accomplished player because no one is making overrated lists about guys who are not highly regarded.  

 

And with all Jackson's regular season accomplishments, I don't think its unfair to still see him a bit overrated given his lack of postseason success, which IMHO is a better barometer in these discussions.  Postseason is as close as they can get to a more apples to apples comparison as the quality of opponents is more even than say a regular season where one team can face an overall easier schedule than another that can help an individuals stat output.  

 

But to be fair, all these overrated conversations are all splitting hairs anyway...guys like Allen, Lamar, Burrow, and Hebert are all very good to elite QB's stuck playing in the Mahomes/Reid era much like we saw with the Bill/Brady era.  All of them will have "overrated" critics until they break through and hoist their own SB Trophy (if ever).  

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See this is the crap that is so stupid. Why do you have to put down Jackson to prop up Allen? I’m sure Ravens fans do the same thing with Allen. Throw Burrow in there vice versa. 
 

Jackson has a 58-19 record as a nfl starter, 2 MVPs, and a Heisman. He’s really good. Burrow won a championship, got to a SB, and a Heisman. Allen came from no where to become at worst a top 5 qb (I’d put him 2).

 

moral of the story, the only qb who is not probably considered overrated by other fanbases is Mahomes (who some bills fans still don’t think is that good). 

 

 

I didn't do that, strawman-maker.  

 

The question in the poll asked who was the most overrated QB.  I chose Jackson.  How is responding to the poll question in the OP link propping up Allen?

 

Still with me?  anyway...

 

In 2019, Jackson was the well deserved, legit MVP--he did everything on that Offense.  His MVP last season was a bad joke.  

 

In the end, however, no one cares about your regular season record.  Come playoff time, as we all know--he's a dud.  He got his cazzo handed to him by the Chiefs last year.   The year before, due to contract issues (his PCL was estimated at 1-3 weeks, he was off for 5) , he tanked on his team, standing on the sidelines after they got a playoff spot without him.  He watched them get beat by the Bengals.  He's won 2 playoff games in 6 years. 

 

Also, since you brought up Allen (who is a lot more durable than Jackson--despite his sometimes reckless style of play), he was a far more deserving (not the most deserving, that would have been McCaffrey) MVP candidate than Jackson--by any measure.  Allen is 5-5--but not due to poor performance on his part:  22700+ yards, 21 TD vs 4 Int, rating of 100 plus 563 yards rushing for 5 more TDs (plus a receiving TD).  Plus, Josh Allen isn't a head case.

 

Heisman?  come on....

 

Anyway, what is it you were saying?

 

 

[Bruffalo]

45 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Allen makes plenty of bad throws without the WRs help lol. I just hope he works more under center with a play action this year. 

Something like 40% of Allen's INTs were when he was targeting Davis, which is completely disproportionate to his target share. 

Edited August 27 by Bruffalo

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Agree with all you said but I do think the bias is in Bills fans heads a bit. 
 

Allen took a lot of crap when he came into the nfl. So did Jackson. And Hurts.  I think after year 3, the Bills were one of the most beloved teams in the nfl. Allen was a God after that KC loss. 
 

however, it’s a case of being good but not good enough. We havent gotten past that KC title game loss yet so people have started writing us off. I’d also argue last year was the worst Allen played in prime time games (Jets, Broncos, Chargers) so he didn’t get the love he did in past years. 
 

So if anything, we have become underdogs again. No one respects our wrs and we lost a bunch of leaders (mainly old) but still. Add to the narrative that Jackson isn’t winning again or Mahomes, this might be Allen’s best case if he has a normal or close to Allen season. 

 

I don't disagree that Allen coming off the 2021 game had a different level of respect.  The issue was that now expectations were that it was Allen and the Bills time, that they were the better team and got screwed by a coin toss.  This was only furthered by the fact the Bengals shut down the Chiefs offense to hold them to only 3 points in the 2nd half of the AFCCG to upset them.  Coming into 2022 the Bills were the sexy choice for the SB.  Many people felt Bills would have won the SB in 2021 had they advanced past KC.  

 

Then 2022 was not the season people expected from the Bills or Allen.  We won a lot of games still, but it felt hard at times.  Bills reporters were asking Allen in post game interviews after wins if he believed this was a championship offense.  Bills 3 losses were by a total of 8 or 9 points.  We were a handful of points from being undefeated that season, but everything seemed hard and the offense had a lull midseason too.  Then we get a home playoff game and got embarrassed at home.

 

Enter 2023...many people are now giving 2022 more of a pass based on the trauma the team and city went through in 2022.  Again expectations are high for Allen and the Bills.  He opens the season with a disaster of a game and a loss to Zack Wilson.  We are 5-5 and have to fire our OC.  The media and analyst are starting to turn on him more again.  Brady comes in, the team starts winning, and Allen starts turning heads as the Bills go on a late season run, but he still has his skeptics.  We finally get KC at home and we again come up short. 

 

So I don't think the bias is all in the Bills fans head per se, I think there is a real bias around Allen that the media and pundits want to stick to more than they want to talk about how good he is and I think it shows up in the MVP voting too.  He is not the only one, guys like Hurts and Lamar have faced too in their careers as well.  

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I think Jackson is excellent and one of the best, but the playoff thing is real and the sample size is now large enough: 

 

2-4 record; 57.4 completion percentage, 6 TDs, 6 INTs, 3 rushing TDs, 3 lost fumbles, a 75.7 passer rating, and an ungodly 11.8 percent sack rate. (9/9 TD to turnover rate)

 

Allen, on the other hand:

 

5-5 record; 64.6 completion rate; 21 TDs, 4 INTs, a 100.0 passer rating, 5 rushing TDs, 2 lost fumbles, and a 5.7 percent sack rate. (26/6 TD to turnover rate)

 

The playoffs really matter.

Don't forget that Allen has also caught a TD pass in the playoffs (against Houston).  Watch a replay of that catch and score and Allen took a wicked hit as he crossed the goal line.  So Allen's playoff TD to turnover numbers are 27/6 versus 9/9 for Jackson. That's a huge difference which completely eclipses whatever advantages people think Jackson has in the regular season. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I think Jackson is excellent and one of the best, but the playoff thing is real and the sample size is now large enough: 

 

2-4 record; 57.4 completion percentage, 6 TDs, 6 INTs, 3 rushing TDs, 3 lost fumbles, a 75.7 passer rating, and an ungodly 11.8 percent sack rate. (9/9 TD to turnover rate)

 

Allen, on the other hand:

 

5-5 record; 64.6 completion rate; 21 TDs, 4 INTs, a 100.0 passer rating, 5 rushing TDs, 2 lost fumbles, and a 5.7 percent sack rate. (26/6 TD to turnover rate)

 

The playoffs really matter.

27/6 td-turnover ratio

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Agree 100% and that’s why you can’t have him over Allen, Burrow, etc. 

 

 

burrow's postseason stats are fine but nothing to write home about

in that spirit i nominate joe burrow as the most overrated player in the league

[Big Blitz]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

burrow's postseason stats are fine but nothing to write home about

in that spirit i nominate joe burrow as the most overrated player in the league

 

It’s Hurts.  

[RiotAct]

if you take the time to read the fine print, they only interviewed Christian Wilkins and Jalen Ramsey.

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

if you take the time to read the fine print, they only interviewed Christian Wilkins and Jalen Ramsey.

That must be why Josh won most underappreciated sac. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Big Blitz said:

 

It’s Hurts.  

for me it's burrow and by a mile...nobody thinks Hurts is the second best QB in the league

 

the legend of joe burrow is primarily the product of a playoff defense that holds teams to under 19ppg while he throws for 260 yards/game

[julian]

8 hours ago, Low Positive said:

The entire NFL, especially players, are part of a system. It's like football development inc. You go to position camps. Then you go to a top high school, moving if you need to. Then you go to a top college program. Josh did none of that. The path would have been a move to Fresno or, even better, Folsom. Then he would have played at Cal or Stanford. Look at Gronk, who left Williamsville to go to Pennsylvania to get more visibility. I think that NFL players feel like he didn't pay his dues or play by the system to get where he is and they resent it.

Gotta remember most of these players are young in their 20’s.. they are the social media generation, I’m guessing most don’t watch a ton of football and get plenty of info from the “first take” shows of the media landscape.

 

 This Allen turnover narrative isn’t going away and will only be overlooked with a championship.

[Low Positive]

Just now, julian said:

Gotta remember most of these players are young in their 20’s.. they are the social media generation, I’m guessing most don’t watch a ton of football and get plenty of info from the “first take” shows of the media landscape.

 

 This Allen turnover narrative isn’t going away and will only be overlooked with a championship.

This years narrative will be “Josh Allen is nothing without Diggs.” 

[julian]

9 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

This years narrative will be “Josh Allen is nothing without Diggs.” 

Yeah… it’s up to him to smash that narrative