ESPN Player Survey...Allen Most Trash Talking Overrated QB in NFL

[DrDawkinstein]

31 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Why does it seem like it was only the Diggs brothers who participated in this survey?

 

Jalen Ramsey has his finger prints all over it.

[billsbackto81]

55 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Hmmnnn. Sounds like a bunch of butthurt dudes who are tired of getting hurdled and trucked by Josh.  And I wonder how random the sample of 103 players is.  

I've been saying for a while, it's easier for a football defender to respect and admire you when you run by them (Lamar) than to run over you (Allen). JA has put together a highlight reel of trucking, leaping, juking and running by people. I'm sure their a lotta butthurt players out there.

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

With this group of WRs? He's going to have at least 5 bounce off of hands, and a few pick sixes as a result. I wouldn't be shocked if he sets a career worst.

 

Curious, why do you think hands are an issue?  I mean I get skepticism on the effectiveness of the group until we see them on the field, but specficially their hands is an odd one given overall this group should be more efficient when it comes to catch rate than last years group.  

 

Of all the concerns about Keon, the one positive trait almost everyone agrees with rather they like or dislike the Keon pick is he had good hands.  Kincaid and Shakir were amongst the best catch rates (Shakir being #1) in the NFL last year, and Samuels hands aren't bad either.  Now MVS...he sucks...maybe the worst hands of anyone Josh has played with the past 3 to 4 years, I will give you that one, but I doubt he sees many targets.  

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Curious, why do you think hands are an issue?  I mean I get skepticism on the effectiveness of the group until we see them on the field, but specficially their hands is an odd one given overall this group should be more efficient when it comes to catch rate than last years group.  

 

Of all the concerns about Keon, the one positive trait almost everyone agrees with rather they like or dislike the Keon pick is he had good hands.  Kincaid and Shakir were amongst the best catch rates (Shakir being #1) in the NFL last year, and Samuels hands aren't bad either.  Now MVS...he sucks...maybe the worst hands of anyone Josh has played with the past 3 to 4 years, I will give you that one, but I doubt he sees many targets.  

I don't think it's strictly a scenario where they put two hands on the ball and gift it to a defender for the top end of the WR roster (kincaid, Shakir, Knox, Samuels). I will be shocked if there isn't a healthy amount of WR mistakes where they take unexpected angles, run the wrong routes, try to catch balls that are intended for other players and despite not being in optimal positions to catch the ball still make contact and pop it up. There will also be bang-bang plays where balls pop up in the air after contact.

I'm also expecting the kinds of plays that make QBs look horrible where they throw it right into a defender's hands because the receiver ran the wrong route. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I have very little faith in this receiving group.

 

[Lagoon Blues]

"ESPN asked over 100 NFL players"  

Haha...Seeing how they won't put a name to who wrote the article and coming from a company based in Pats territory for all we know 50 of them were NE players lol.

Edited August 27 by Lagoon Blues

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I don't think it's strictly a scenario where they put two hands on the ball and gift it to a defender for the top end of the WR roster (kincaid, Shakir, Knox, Samuels). I will be shocked if there isn't a healthy amount of WR mistakes where they take unexpected angles, run the wrong routes, try to catch balls that are intended for other players and despite not being in optimal positions to catch the ball still make contact and pop it up. There will also be bang-bang plays where balls pop up in the air after contact.

I'm also expecting the kinds of plays that make QBs look horrible where they throw it right into a defender's hands because the receiver ran the wrong route. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I have very little faith in this receiving group.

 

 

Gotcha, ok I can see where your hands comment is coming from then.  I don't personally share those same concerns, but at least it makes sense now why you said what you said about the hands where its more not being in sync of where to be and where the ball is being delivered more so than the players ability to make a catch.  

[dollars 2 donuts]

4 hours ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Don't shoot the messanger...mostly predicated on the he's a turnover machine theory...

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41001234/nfl-patrick-mahomes-lamar-jackson-caleb-williams-quarterbacks-ranking

 

 

Good thing, then, that he is a Touchdown Factory and that most of the "ACME" Defenders in this League are routinely butt hurt by his product.

 

 

[Jauronimo]

34 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What are you even talking about dude.  You jumped into a conversation with no idea about what you are talking about.  And that is something that happens way too much here.  First I was only talking about Diggs and Davis.  You chimed in with your inaccurate assumptions.  I used Shakir as a quick and easy example of a huge discrepancy, not to highlight Shakir, but show just how inefficeint Diggs was with his targets.  So leave Shakir out of this, it has nothing to do with the point now.  

 

So let me educate you on what inefficiency is by only focusing on what Diggs did on the field that earned the comment that said he was inefficenct in the first place, because it is a FACT despite your ignrorace to the facts.

 

 

Diggs final 10 games:  80 targets, 47 Catches, 422 yards.

Efficiency:

Catch Rate:  58.8%

Yards Per Catch:  8.98 

Yards per Target:  5.28

Yards per game:  42.2

 

If you think those are not highly inefficient for a #1 WR then you should never ever discuss WR's again.  Those are facts...not petty assumptions.  I did not say Diggs was highly efficient his whole career, I was a big champion of Diggs almost his entire career here, and I was one who thought he wouldn't even be traded this year and thought it would be next year.  

 

And FWIW, Diggs also saw a drop in his efficiency in the 2nd half of the 2022 year as well, not as steep as this years very dramatic drop, but a relevant drop none the less.  

 

So...get out of here with this embarassing myself nonsense, you have no idea what you are talking about, what the subject even is and you come at me with the pompous attitude for no reason.  It gets old.

 

Right....because the conversation was sooooo hard to follow.....who could possibly comprehend such elevated discourse?  The answer is no one, clearly.

 

You said "Gone are two highly inefficient players in Diggs and Davis".  There was no qualification.  You have had multiple opportunities to amend that statement but instead you have tripled down.  I can only go off what is written.

 

Diggs 2022 season was an excellent year by any conceivable metric.  Again, this is a preposterous opinion.

 

So what are you arguing at this point? Are you arguing that the last 10 games of 2023 is representative of who Diggs and Shakir are as players?  I hope not.  I would hate to see this position fall apart when Shakir's efficiency numbers come back down to earth, as every reasonable person knows that they will, now that he is stepping into a larger role in this offense.  It would be even the worse if Diggs sees an increase in his efficiency numbers now that he is not the focal point of the passing offense.  I highly doubt the Texas offense will find themselves so lost for answers that they throw 5 to 6 prayers somewhere in the vicinity of Diggs a game or try to force a screen game through him.  

[Avisan]

@JauronimoDiggs was objectively awful during the Brady stretch of the season.  ~44 yards per game on ~8 targets per game.  It was rough.  This is not the rhetorical hill to die on.

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Avisan said:

@JauronimoDiggs was objectively awful during the Brady stretch of the season.  ~44 yards per game on ~8 targets per game.  It was rough.  This is not the rhetorical hill to die on.

If you want to die on the hill of 10 games makes two careers, you are more than welcome.

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Right....because the conversation was sooooo hard to follow.....who could possibly comprehend such elevated discourse?  The answer is no one, clearly.

 

You said "Gone are two highly inefficient players in Diggs and Davis".  There was no qualification.  You have had multiple opportunities to amend that statement but instead you have tripled down.  I can only go off what is written.

 

Diggs 2022 season was an excellent year by any conceivable metric.  Again, this is a preposterous opinion.

 

So what are you arguing at this point? Are you arguing that the last 10 games of 2023 is representative of who Diggs and Shakir are as players?  I hope not.  I would hate to see this position fall apart when Shakir's efficiency numbers come back down to earth, as every reasonable person knows that they will, now that he is stepping into a larger role in this offense.  It would be even the worse if Diggs sees an increase in his efficiency numbers now that he is not the focal point of the passing offense.  I highly doubt the Texas offense will find themselves so lost for answers that they throw 5 to 6 prayers somewhere in the vicinity of Diggs a game or try to force a screen game through him.  

 

Geezus christ, you just can't help yourself.  The points I was referring to was this year under Brady compared to last year under Brady on why there are some caveats of differences.  Why the hell would I talk about any time of Diggs career prior to that?  Diggs was a top 3 WR for 2-3 years in the NFL when he first got here, I was one of his biggest fans, my dogs name is Diggs.  I was talking about the caveats from BRADY last year to BRADY this year and what he is WORKING with.  And the facts are, Diggs was HIGHLY inefficient the final 10 games last year.

 

And here you go again...you just IGNORED that I said his efficiency dropped in the SECOND HALF of the season in 2022 as well and went ahead and responded with something TOTALLY different to try and hang on desperately to trying to be right about something you were never right about.  

 

And again...you also brought Shakir back up when I said this has nothing to do with him and he was just used as a quick comparison to show the inefficient numbers you were ignorant to about Diggs.  But here you are again bringing him back up.  

 

Just stop.  Why people just insist on doubling down on missteps or mistaken comments is beyond me.  Rather than just realizing you misunderstood my point, which is fair, you keep trying to double down on your mistake to spin it still to somehow make me wrong about something you misunderstood in the first place.  Its maybe the thing I hate most about the board.

Edited August 27 by Alphadawg7

[Avisan]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

If you want to die on the hill of 10 games makes two careers, you are more than welcome.

We aren't really discussing Diggs' career, though, right?  This is a discussion regarding the Bills' offensive output this year using last year's performances as a data point, is it not?

[C.Biscuit97]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Prediction for 2024 - Allen throws 10 INTs max. 

My prediction is Allen has less tds/ ints but gets more love in mvp voting (betting on him to win at +900).

[That's No Moon]

4 hours ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

Don't shoot the messanger...mostly predicated on the he's a turnover machine theory...

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/41001234/nfl-patrick-mahomes-lamar-jackson-caleb-williams-quarterbacks-ranking

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Lamar Jackson is, by many orders of magnitude, the most overrated QB in the NFL.

See this is the crap that is so stupid. Why do you have to put down Jackson to prop up Allen? I’m sure Ravens fans do the same thing with Allen. Throw Burrow in there vice versa. 
 

Jackson has a 58-19 record as a nfl starter, 2 MVPs, and a Heisman. He’s really good. Burrow won a championship, got to a SB, and a Heisman. Allen came from no where to become at worst a top 5 qb (I’d put him 2).

 

moral of the story, the only qb who is not probably considered overrated by other fanbases is Mahomes (who some bills fans still don’t think is that good). 
 

however, this is the year where Allen will get the lion share of credit if he can get this group to make noise. 

2 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

And make us fans look more insecure than most of you already are? 

 

Maybe we can put up a billboard, or donate money to an ESPN charity? Because hey, we're Bills fans. We celebrate known Bears fans like Kyle Brandt because he said some cool things about the Bills. Or allow Jets fan Mo Mozzerella to training camp because he says how ya doin.

 

You said something about our team? We're gonna slobber or cry!

 

Also, put some socks on.

Josh Allen wasn’t going to try hard but if he sees this poll, it’s on!!!!

 

Bills fans are very insecure about Allen. And I get it. He was doubted (I certainly did) and has become amazing. But it’s like the ugly dude who suddenly gets a beautiful girlfriend. They have to tell all their friends his pretty she is instead of just being happy they have a beautiful girlfriend. 
 

we have a beautiful Josh Allen. Who cares what other people think?

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

My prediction is Allen has less tds/ ints but gets more love in mvp voting (betting on him to win at +900).

 

Yeah, I think this may be the case as well.  3 things are working more in favor this year in terms of an MVP race than any recent past year for Allen:

1. He does not have Diggs - So much is made of Diggs arrival and Allens development, but if you look at the arc of Allens development from the last time he stepped off a college football field until the moment we traded for Diggs, it was already full of big steps forward.  So while Diggs and Allen clearly benefited from each other, I think too much of Allen's success has been seen to be "because" of Diggs rather than Allen and the immense work he put in to elevate his game.  
2. He does not have a proven lead target - Our top 2 returning guys are in the 2nd and 3rd years where they have not yet played a regular season game without both Diggs and Davis.  And the guy starting at the X is a rookie.  And Samuel has been really a complimentary WR more so than a lead WR.  
3. Expectations for the Bills overall are down from the past few seasons - With the losses we took of long time key players on both sides of the ball, the Bills are no longer than top team expected to challenge KC for AFC superiority, or even the consensus favorite to win our own division.  

So I think he enters the season with lower productivity expectations and the team has lower overall expectations as well.  Compare this to he has entered the season as an MVP favorite and the Bills have been a popular SB pick most of the past 3 seasons.  When that is the case, its MUCH easier to disappoint to expectations than to exceed them.  This year, he has the best chance to exceed preseason individual and team expectations since maybe 2020.  

 

And with the slight bias against him, Allen is someone that needs to exceed expectations to really firmly have a real shot at the necessary votes for MVP IMHO.  

 

[Airseven]

It's not a theory.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah, I think this may be the case as well.  3 things are working more in favor this year in terms of an MVP race than any recent past year for Allen:

1. He does not have Diggs - So much is made of Diggs arrival and Allens development, but if you look at the arc of Allens development from the last time he stepped off a college football field until the moment we traded for Diggs, it was already full of big steps forward.  So while Diggs and Allen clearly benefited from each other, I think too much of Allen's success has been seen to be "because" of Diggs rather than Allen and the immense work he put in to elevate his game.  
2. He does not have a proven lead target - Our top 2 returning guys are in the 2nd and 3rd years where they have not yet played a regular season game without both Diggs and Davis.  And the guy starting at the X is a rookie.  And Samuel has been really a complimentary WR more so than a lead WR.  
3. Expectations for the Bills overall are down from the past few seasons - With the losses we took of long time key players on both sides of the ball, the Bills are no longer than top team expected to challenge KC for AFC superiority, or even the consensus favorite to win our own division.  

So I think he enters the season with lower productivity expectations and the team has lower overall expectations as well.  Compare this to he has entered the season as an MVP favorite and the Bills have been a popular SB pick most of the past 3 seasons.  When that is the case, its MUCH easier to disappoint to expectations than to exceed them.  This year, he has the best chance to exceed preseason individual and team expectations since maybe 2020.  

 

And with the slight bias against him, Allen is someone that needs to exceed expectations to really firmly have a real shot at the necessary votes for MVP IMHO.  

 

Agree with all you said but I do think the bias is in Bills fans heads a bit. 
 

Allen took a lot of crap when he came into the nfl. So did Jackson. And Hurts.  I think after year 3, the Bills were one of the most beloved teams in the nfl. Allen was a God after that KC loss. 
 

however, it’s a case of being good but not good enough. We havent gotten past that KC title game loss yet so people have started writing us off. I’d also argue last year was the worst Allen played in prime time games (Jets, Broncos, Chargers) so he didn’t get the love he did in past years. 
 

So if anything, we have become underdogs again. No one respects our wrs and we lost a bunch of leaders (mainly old) but still. Add to the narrative that Jackson isn’t winning again or Mahomes, this might be Allen’s best case if he has a normal or close to Allen season. 

[babulator]

Alpha is gonna Alpha, and beta is gonna beta. JA17, Alpha Male.

[Simon]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

I don't think it's strictly a scenario where they put two hands on the ball and gift it to a defender for the top end of the WR roster (kincaid, Shakir, Knox, Samuels). I will be shocked if there isn't a healthy amount of WR mistakes where they take unexpected angles, run the wrong routes, try to catch balls that are intended for other players and despite not being in optimal positions to catch the ball still make contact and pop it up. There will also be bang-bang plays where balls pop up in the air after contact.

I'm also expecting the kinds of plays that make QBs look horrible where they throw it right into a defender's hands because the receiver ran the wrong route. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I have very little faith in this receiving group.

 

 

Nobody will have more miscommunications with Josh Allen than Gabe Davis did.

NOBODY.