Kelsay expectations

[Nebraskan 4 Bills]

I really liked the way Kelsay progressed last season and think he's going to be a much bigger force this year. Curious to hear what you think? Is Denney still in the mix, or did Kelsay finally pass him by after starting most of last season ahead of him.

[CajunBillsBacker]

Kelsay is clearly the starter over Denney, but Denney has developed into a solid backup.

I said earlier in the offseason that I think Kelsay will be the surprise player of the year on our defense and get 10 sacks this season.

[JoeF]

I really liked the way Kelsay progressed last season and think he's going to be a much bigger force this year. Curious to hear what you think? Is Denney still in the mix, or did Kelsay finally pass him by after starting most of last season ahead of him.

362060[/snapback]

 

I think that Chris Kelsay won the starting battle and moves into camp as the established starter. I really like Kelsay, and I would share your optimism, but I am concerned about a couple of things--

 

He needs to really improve against the run this year to take a step up. He got blown out a few times on the edge and needs to be able to better shed blocks. I saw a couple of times where he got engulfed with no response--he didn't even have a chance to shed because the tackle just overpowered him or he got double teamed. Elite ends beat blocks more often than he did.

 

On the pass rush side--he has good burst and good moves--but he needs to finish. I like pressures--but I like sacks better.

[TigerJ]

If it's an obvious running down and Kelsay needs a blow, they can put Denney in.

[John from Riverside]

I think that Chris Kelsay won the starting battle and moves into camp as the established starter.  I really like Kelsay, and I would share your optimism, but I am concerned about a couple of things--

 

He needs to really improve against the run this year to take a step up.  He got blown out a few times on the edge and needs to be able to better shed blocks.  I saw a couple of times where he got engulfed with no response--he didn't even have a chance to shed because the tackle just overpowered him or he got double teamed.  Elite ends beat blocks more often than he did.

 

On the pass rush side--he has good burst and good moves--but he needs to finish.  I like pressures--but I like sacks better.

362068[/snapback]

 

Actually....My observations were exactly the opposite of yours......I am not doubting you it is just amazing how two people can look at something and see different things......

 

I thought Kelsay was EXCELLENT against the run......no DE wins his battle every time but I thought that Kelsay held his ground very well....and shedded very well to get a piece of the ball carrior more often then not.....he is a very good hustle player......

 

I thought he needed to work on a secondary pass rush move when the OT he was going against started riding him around t he edge of the pocket or started stoning him at the line of scrimmage.....what I was very encouraged was the way he was able to fight hands off of him when he was at the line of scrimmage...you have to do this as a defensive end so a OT cannot get his mitts into you.....once they do that the battle is over....

[JoeF]

Actually....My observations were exactly the opposite of yours......I am not doubting you it is just amazing how two people can look at something and see different things......

 

I thought Kelsay was EXCELLENT against the run......no DE wins his battle every time but I thought that Kelsay held his ground very well....and shedded very well to get a piece of the ball carrior more often then not.....he is a very good hustle player......

 

I thought he needed to work on a secondary pass rush move when the OT he was going against started riding him around t he edge of the pocket or started stoning him at the line of scrimmage.....what I was very encouraged was the way he was able to fight hands off of him when he was at the line of scrimmage...you have to do this as a defensive end so a OT cannot get his mitts into you.....once they do that the battle is over....

362105[/snapback]

 

Reference points on my comments versus the run were early games and then a regression against Pittsburgh. I think it was the first Jets game where they really picked on him-to the tune of 3 or 4 straight plays to his side for an average of 6 or 7 a carry-he began to improve in the second half of this game. It was trial by fire.

 

The Miami game at home also there where a couple of plays in the first half with Sammy Morris running where he was non-existent.

 

I definitely believe he improved, but can still get better. As for the Pittsburgh game--I think the entire D-line had an off day that day.

 

I guess I looked at this original question as what does he need to do to become an elite player, but we do have a different opinion of him against the run.

 

________________________________________________________

Here was a comment from TD in a 12/20/2004 Chat:

 

Tom Donahoe: Chris Kelsay has shown outstanding improvement each week of the season. As a matter of fact, our defensive end position with Chris, Aaron Schobel and Ryan Denney is one of the deeper positions on our football team. We actually feel that we have three starters at that position. You can see the improvement in Chris' play with his ability to be better against the run in terms of recognizing what teams are trying to do to him. As a pass rusher he has provided a very good compliment to Aaron Schobel. Chris has brought toughness and a top work ethic to our team.

____________________________________________________

 

It doesn't mean he stunk--just needed to improve.

 

Anyway--I would still much rather have you coaching a football team than me. Your analysis is always pretty much spot on.

[Bill from NYC]

Reference points on my comments versus the run were early games and then a regression against Pittsburgh.  I think it was the first Jets game where they really picked on him-to the tune of 3 or 4 straight plays to his side for an average of 6 or 7 a carry-he began to improve in the second half of this game.  It was trial by fire.

 

The Miami game at home also there where a couple of plays in the first half with Sammy Morris running where he was non-existent. 

 

I definitely believe he improved, but can still get better.  As for the Pittsburgh game--I think the entire D-line had an off day that day.

 

I guess I looked at this original question as what does he need to do to become an elite player, but we do have a different opinion of him against the run.

Here was a comment from TD in a 12/20/2004 Chat:

 

Tom Donahoe: Chris Kelsay has shown outstanding improvement each week of the season. As a matter of fact, our defensive end position with Chris, Aaron Schobel and Ryan Denney is one of the deeper positions on our football team. We actually feel that we have three starters at that position. You can see the improvement in Chris' play with his ability to be better against the run in terms of recognizing what teams are trying to do to him. As a pass rusher he has provided a very good compliment to Aaron Schobel. Chris has brought toughness and a top work ethic to our team.

362129[/snapback]

 

The comments by TD are telling.

DE (along with QB abd LT) is one of the 3 hardest positions to fill on an NFL football team.

Kelsay was an excellent pick, and I for one expect continued development.

[Nebraskan 4 Bills]

The comments by TD are telling.

DE (along with QB abd LT) is one of the 3 hardest positions to fill on an NFL football team.

Kelsay was an excellent pick, and I for one expect continued development.

362131[/snapback]

 

God it's nice to be on a message board where people actually know football and offer some good insight instead of just blabbing. Can't wait to be a "regular" as we get closer to the season and join your conversations.

[John from Riverside]

Reference points on my comments versus the run were early games and then a regression against Pittsburgh.  I think it was the first Jets game where they really picked on him-to the tune of 3 or 4 straight plays to his side for an average of 6 or 7 a carry-he began to improve in the second half of this game.  It was trial by fire.

 

The Miami game at home also there where a couple of plays in the first half with Sammy Morris running where he was non-existent. 

 

I definitely believe he improved, but can still get better.  As for the Pittsburgh game--I think the entire D-line had an off day that day.

 

I guess I looked at this original question as what does he need to do to become an elite player, but we do have a different opinion of him against the run.

 

________________________________________________________

Here was a comment from TD in a 12/20/2004 Chat:

 

Tom Donahoe: Chris Kelsay has shown outstanding improvement each week of the season. As a matter of fact, our defensive end position with Chris, Aaron Schobel and Ryan Denney is one of the deeper positions on our football team. We actually feel that we have three starters at that position. You can see the improvement in Chris' play with his ability to be better against the run in terms of recognizing what teams are trying to do to him. As a pass rusher he has provided a very good compliment to Aaron Schobel. Chris has brought toughness and a top work ethic to our team.

____________________________________________________

 

It doesn't mean he stunk--just needed to improve.

 

Anyway--I would still much rather have you coaching a football team than me.  Your analysis is always pretty much spot on.

362129[/snapback]

 

 

I understood what you were saying and I didn't think you were trying to say that he stunk....

 

I saw those comments back then too.....a couple of my own observations:

 

- Ryan Denny is a pretty good run stopper but not much else......I had been lobbying to end the dennysay experiment for well over a year......I just think that platooning players like that hinders the development of the guy you ultimately want on the field....unless it is in specific situations (like maybe a pass rush specialist coming in on 3rd downs) Kelsay and Dennys game are so much alike that I didn't see the need to rotate them....Kelsay simply has more talent....but they are both players that make things happen by hustle and are not Bruce Smith types.........I think that having to rotate on and off the field breaks your rythum as a starting DE and Kelsay should have just been left in there......

 

- The thing I really like about Kelsay is regardless of where the play is at he is in the "same snapshot of film" quite simply he is always around the ball......

 

- It seems to me he has a penchant for creating turnovers

 

Personally except for the fact that I would like to see a pass rush specialist DE on the team......I like our where we are at with our DE's

[Astrobot]

I would add that Kelsay's persistence on plays reminds me of Schobel's first 2 years. I think it wouldn't be a stretch at all to predict 10 sacks. However, he's getting some of those because he's cashing in on Schobel-Adams forcing the QB over to him (see how I omitted Phat?).

[Nebraskan 4 Bills]

07/03/05 - In a commentary, Larry Felser of the Buffalo News made this prediction: "One of the biggest improvements for the Bills this season may come with some of their young players having breakthrough years. My hunch for one of the major breakthroughs is Chris Kelsay, who finally won the starting job at left defensive end over the last nine games after sharing with Ryan Denney. Kelsay figured out what he was doing during the Bills' winning streak. He should be better this year."

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I understood what you were saying and I didn't think you were trying to say that he stunk....

 

I saw those comments back then too.....a couple of my own observations:

 

- Ryan Denny is a pretty good run stopper but not much else......I had been lobbying to end the dennysay experiment for well over a year......I just think that platooning players like that hinders the development of the guy you ultimately want on the field....unless it is in specific situations (like maybe a pass rush specialist coming in on 3rd downs) Kelsay and Dennys game are so much alike that I didn't see the need to rotate them....Kelsay simply has more talent....but they are both players that make things happen by hustle and are not Bruce Smith types.........I think that having to rotate on and off the field breaks your rythum as a starting DE and Kelsay should have just been left in there......

 

363857[/snapback]

 

In addition to being a good player against the run (he was even used as a DT sometimes which explains part of why Phat Pat got relatively few snaps last year for a starter) I think that actually Denney's primary benefit to the Bills is that he was built for the zone-blitz.

 

The idea he is not much else but a run stopper ignores the fact that he has actually show some athleticism which has even allowed Krumrie/Gray to employ him in the medium pass coverage zone (he does not have the speed to stick with a backer or TE who goes deep. but can do pass coverage into the LB area (an example is his INT last pre-season which occured downfield) and has a huge wingspan which makes him a great cover guy in the short zone merely by raising his arms on a tall body.

 

As far as the rotation, I think the Bills scheme is not to identify one player and to go with im til he drops but to try to elevate all the players to the same level and same ability so that thye can shuffle the players in and out virtually on every play and they can cut loose totally because they know they do not have to pace themselves. I think the Krumrie sees it as a mark of achievement that folks judge Kelsay and Denney to be the same type of player (and at the same level) rather than it is a problem as you say (imply).

 

I also am not sure what point you are making when you say the rotation does not allow for the development of the player you want to go with. Who specifically is that player? Uyi Osunde? George Gause? Perhaps you know something about them most of us do not know but all DEs on the roster (Ritzman) are going to have to fight their way on and are likely camp fodder so I am not sure who you want to exoperiment with and release this player whom TD has refered to as a virtual starter for the Bills and was one of only 3 DEs on the active roster most of last year.

 

Folks do continue to rag on Denney because he was downright awful and not ready to play NFL ball his first year (the technical reason is that apparently he did not bend his big body correctly and even a cursory look at the film revealed to an opponent how to use his bad leverage against him and take him out of a play easily. However, though he is not the sack master we want and are used to because all Bills DEs are compared to Bruce Smith by fans and found wanting I think the Denny experiment is actually done and was deemed a success by Krunrie/Gray last year.

[bobblehead]

Well, if Edwards really was outplaying Williams last year, then yes, this should be a better year up front. I'm a bit worried about Anderson. Well, maybe not "worried", but rather "unsure". If Kelsay, and the rest the front line D, are forced into covering for a learning Anderson, then I'll be worried.

[stuckincincy]

Well, if Edwards really was outplaying Williams last year, then yes, this should be a better year up front.  I'm a bit worried about Anderson.  Well, maybe not "worried", but rather "unsure". If Kelsay, and the rest the front line D, are forced into covering for a learning Anderson, then I'll be worried.

374737[/snapback]

 

"Unsure" sounds right. Anderson was a good, reliable player at OSU. I think he'll work out ok - we'll see.

[eball]

"Unsure" sounds right.  Anderson was a good, reliable player at OSU. I think he'll work out ok - we'll see.

374748[/snapback]

if memory serves, i think he's also pretty bright. having a year under his belt should pay big dividends as he sees more time on the field in '05. i like the way the DL looks going into camp -- PW's departure notwithstanding.

[JoeF]

"Unsure" sounds right.  Anderson was a good, reliable player at OSU. I think he'll work out ok - we'll see.

374748[/snapback]

 

In college, Anderson was one of those guys that knew his role--plug the middle, but when OSU needed a big play on D, he was the guy making the play more often than not.

 

I usually don't like comparisons, but you know how Willie McGinest can be relatively quiet all game--just playing his role doing his job in an above average way--but he is always there at the end when the Pats need him..that's what Anderson kind of was in college--solid most times but spectacular when the game was on the line. Now I know McGinest is an outside player and Anderson an interior guy--but I just have this feeling that we will see Anderson in the backfield blowing up a play just when we need it the most.

 

Remember, Krumrie said the guy held up in the Mortal Kombat drill as well as anyone ever has.. (Krumrie on Anderson)...that says something about stamina and resolve...never getting tired...never getting overwhelmed...we'll see how well that transfers.

 

As for Kelsay--he got better, significantly better, as the season evolved last year...that usually leads to a "breakout" the following year. I think we look back on him lasting until the mid to late second round as a huge bargain. Remember, this is the draft that also yielded--McGahee, McGee, depth at LB/good special teams in Crowell and Hagan--and most importantly Luvale Sape!!!

[stuckincincy]

In college, Anderson was one of those guys that knew his role--plug the middle, but when OSU needed a big play on D, he was the guy making the play more often than not. 

 

I usually don't like comparisons, but you know how Willie McGinest can be relatively quiet all game--just playing his role doing his job in an above average--but he is always there at the end when the Pats need him..that's what Anderson kind of was in college--solid most times but spectacular when the game was on the line.  Now I know McGinest is an outside player and Anderson an interior guy--but I just have this feeling that we will see Anderson in the backfield blowing up a play just when we need it the most. 

 

Remember, Krumrie said the guy held up in the Mortal Kombat drill as well as anyone ever has.. (Krumrie on Anderson)...that says something about stamina and resolve...never getting tired...never getting overwhelmed...we'll see how well that transfers.

 

As for Kelsay--he got better, significantly better, as the season evolved last year...that usually leads to a "breakout" the following year.  I think we look back on him lasting until the mid to late second round as a huge bargain.  Remember, this is the draft that also yielded--McGahee, McGee, depth at LB/good special teams in Crowell and Hagan--and most importantly Luvale Sape!!!

374770[/snapback]

 

 

During their 0 for 12-year run. the B'gals drafted OSU DT Dan Wilkerson as their top pick. He got fried by fans and media alike, because he didn't put up the sack numbers and got moved on.

 

I liked Wilkerson; he plugged the middle, was tough to get around, and when he left the club's run defense dived the folllowing year IIRC.

 

DT sacks are nice, but I think those that get a goodly number of sacks are surrounded by good talent or an exceptionally clever job by the defensive coordinator, such as when Sapp's sacks ballooned when TB picked up Simeon Rice.

[JoeF]

During their 0 for 12-year run. the B'gals drafted OSU DT Dan Wilkerson as their top pick. He got fried by fans and media alike, because he didn't put up the sack numbers and got moved on.

 

I liked Wilkerson; he plugged the middle, was tough to get around, and when he left the club's run defense dived the folllowing year IIRC.

 

DT sacks are nice, but I think those that get a goodly number of sacks are surrounded by good talent or an exceptionally clever job by the defensive coordinator, such as when Sapp's sacks ballooned when TB picked up Simeon Rice.

374781[/snapback]

 

 

Thanks Stuck--wasn't necessarily referencing only sacks--but just disrupting plays--passing or running. He is a silent--eat your lunch at your desk and do your job type guy--but turns it up a notch when its third and two or third and six--up by 3 points and makes the play.