Receivers the Bills could go after?

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

When the dust settles, I think Kincaid will be regarded as a better player than Addison. I say that as a Pitt alum. 

 

Jordan is kind of a high floor, low ceiling guy. He works great as a flanker or slot, but he isn't gonna play X any more than Shakir or Samuel would.

he did fine when Jefferson went down

 

fwiw vikes played JJ in the slot 59% of the time, Addison 57% last season

[Mikey152]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Lol you're asking people to list realistic options, and you just rattled off three... I don't know what else there is to say. Missing out on Hopkins was incredibly dumb. Massive missed opportunity and there's really no excuse.

 

As to this part - "Beane has been very clear that he doesn't like to do that" - this has only been the case with WR. With regard to other positions, notably on defense, he has wasted millions of cap dollars on bloated contracts which has led us into the cap trouble we're in today.

It's just not that simple...

 

Hopkins signed a 2 year, 26 million dollar deal. We probably could have fit him under the cap instead of Floyd last year pretty easily, but this year would have been a nightmare...he has an 18 mil cap hit and 12 in dead money. So your version of realistic and my version of realistic are different. 

 

As for the bloated contracts...Von Maybe, but when he signed those deals they had tons of space and were making a SB push. Last year was clearly different than 2022.

[HappyDays]

9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

the answer to "how" is usually some form of passing on a potentially better player per the Bills grades (Kincaid, Torrence, Bishop, Carter, Davis) at a different position, trading tons of draft capital for a trade up, or kicking the can down the road on the cap for a Vet WR.

 

Uh, yes, the answer to "how" is indeed spending draft picks and cap dollars on them. How exactly do you think most teams acquire valuable players? They just spontaneously generate in the locker room?

 

9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I get that WR is important...but are you sure it's THAT important?

 

So instead of wasting everyone's time by acting like there was nothing the poor old Bills could have done to improve the room, just come out and admit up front that you don't believe the position is that valuable. If you want proof that your opinion is wrong, rank each position group by AAV. Spoiler alert - the 5th highest paid WR is making more AAV than the very highest paid guard. Only the top 2 highest paid defensive linemen would make it on the list of 5 highest paid WRs.

 

The value has been determined by the league. Here's a good starting point for you:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/wr/sort/contract_average

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/dl/sort/contract_average

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

he did fine when Jefferson went down

 

fwiw vikes played JJ in the slot 59% of the time, Addison 57% last season

You aren't asking him to line up on the ball...he's just not that guy. He's not "just" a slot receiver, but he's not a ball-winner either. On the Bills, he would have played the slot last season, and this year we probably just would have resigned Gabe instead of signing Samuel....and not had Kincaid.

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Uh, yes, the answer to "how" is indeed spending draft picks and cap dollars on them. How exactly do you think most teams acquire valuable players? They just spontaneously generate in the locker room?

 

 

So instead of wasting everyone's time by acting like there was nothing the poor old Bills could have done to improve the room, just come out and admit up front that you don't believe the position is that valuable. If you want proof that your opinion is wrong, rank each position group by AAV. Spoiler alert - the 5th highest paid WR is making more AAV than the very highest paid guard. Only the top 2 highest paid defensive linemen would make it on the list of 5 highest paid WRs.

 

The value has been determined by the league. Here's a good starting point for you:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/wr/sort/contract_average

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/dl/sort/contract_average

I'm not sure contracts make the point you think they do...

 

Because that would also suggest Daniel Jones is more valuable than any WR. You're also comparing #1 WR to #1 guards...but what about 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers to starting guards? Sure, I'd take JJ over Torrence...but I wouldn't take a #3 receiver over him and definitely not a 4th or 5th target. So unless you think Jalin Hyatt is a #1 WR, Im not sure I understand your point.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Uh, yes, the answer to "how" is indeed spending draft picks and cap dollars on them. How exactly do you think most teams acquire valuable players? They just spontaneously generate in the locker room?

 

 

So instead of wasting everyone's time by acting like there was nothing the poor old Bills could have done to improve the room, just come out and admit up front that you don't believe the position is that valuable. If you want proof that your opinion is wrong, rank each position group by AAV. Spoiler alert - the 5th highest paid WR is making more AAV than the very highest paid guard. Only the top 2 highest paid defensive linemen would make it on the list of 5 highest paid WRs.

 

The value has been determined by the league. Here's a good starting point for you:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/wr/sort/contract_average

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/player/_/year/2024/position/dl/sort/contract_average

This isn’t slowing either. Chase MAY reset the market. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

You aren't asking him to line up on the ball...he's just not that guy. He's not "just" a slot receiver, but he's not a ball-winner either. On the Bills, he would have played the slot last season, and this year we probably just would have resigned Gabe instead of signing Samuel....and not had Kincaid.

i mean this is him in the x and this play went for a TD

 

 

not saying he doesn't benefit from JJ playing the Z and carrying Slay there but what you are saying is nor accurate

[Mikey152]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This isn’t slowing either. Chase MAY reset the market. 

You guys are missing the point...

 

ELITE WR contracts are climbing. 

 

There are about 50 WR making 5+ mil a year...and 29 guards. If you add in centers since most teams start 3 WR, there 43 interior lineman making 5 mil AAV.

 

So sure, a top end starting WR is worth more than a starting guard...but by the time you get to WR 2 and def WR 3...C/G is just as important.

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i mean this is him in the x and this play went for a TD

 

 

not saying he doesn't benefit from JJ playing the Z and carrying Slay there but what you are saying is nor accurate

You can do that for every receiver in the NFL, even slot players...If you want Addison playing X for your team regularly, have at it.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

You aren't asking him to line up on the ball...he's just not that guy. He's not "just" a slot receiver, but he's not a ball-winner either. On the Bills, he would have played the slot last season, and this year we probably just would have resigned Gabe instead of signing Samuel....and not had Kincaid.

I'm not sure contracts make the point you think they do...

 

Because that would also suggest Daniel Jones is more valuable than any WR. You're also comparing #1 WR to #1 guards...but what about 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers to starting guards? Sure, I'd take JJ over Torrence...but I wouldn't take a #3 receiver over him and definitely not a 4th or 5th target. So unless you think Jalin Hyatt is a #1 WR, Im not sure I understand your point.

 

 

Daniel Jones plays QB. QB's are the most important position in the NFL.

 

Are you honestly suggesting otherwise?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Maybe.

 

But clearly they were trying to run it back one more time in 2023. They drafted a pass catcher with their first pick, and Torrence in the second is a good player. From the Bills third round pick to the fifth where shorter was picked, 5 WR went off the board and I am not sure any of them are any better than Shorter. I guess you could argue they could have take Puka, but that is hindsight at its finest.

 

So maybe you wanted to trade up? For who?  How much does it cost? Are they better than Kincaid or Torrence?  Maybe you think Jalin Hyatt is the missing piece?

 

What about FA?  I think they tried. They could have signed OBJ or Hopkins, maybe...both expressed interest. But both wanted decent money...not bank breaking money, but good money. The type of money that either hamstrings you now or later. Beane has been very clear that he doesn't like to do that, so if your beef is that he didn't go all in on WR and either forgo other positions or tank a future season to do it, I hope you can at least see how not everyone sees that as a slam dunk choice like you make it out to be.

 

Yes I'd have traded up for Addison. I am on the record at the time too as saying that.

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

he did fine when Jefferson went down

 

fwiw vikes played JJ in the slot 59% of the time, Addison 57% last season

 

This.

[Kirby Jackson]

50 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

You guys are missing the point...

 

ELITE WR contracts are climbing. 

 

There are about 50 WR making 5+ mil a year...and 29 guards. If you add in centers since most teams start 3 WR, there 43 interior lineman making 5 mil AAV.

 

So sure, a top end starting WR is worth more than a starting guard...but by the time you get to WR 2 and def WR 3...C/G is just as important.

You can do that for every receiver in the NFL, even slot players...If you want Addison playing X for your team regularly, have at it.

Lol, that is literally what you quoted…

 

It was a post about WR contracts climbing…

Edited September 5 by Kirby Jackson

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Because that would also suggest Daniel Jones is more valuable than any WR.

 

Base level starting QBs absolutely ARE more valuable than any WR. Because the drop off from that QB to a backup QB is much larger than the drop off from Justin Jefferson to the next WR in the pipeline. If you don't believe me, check the point spreads when a QB is out versus when a WR is out. But likewise Jefferson being out would have a bigger effect on his team than say Micah Parsons being out. And so on down the line from there.

 

You can't sidestep the valuation or act like the NFL has it wrong. The market is the market and the results are clear - it's QB, then it's WR, then it's everything else.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

You're also comparing #1 WR to #1 guards...but what about 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers to starting guards? Sure, I'd take JJ over Torrence...but I wouldn't take a #3 receiver over him and definitely not a 4th or 5th target. So unless you think Jalin Hyatt is a #1 WR, Im not sure I understand your point.

 

Dude we're talking about investment. That's where you brought the conversation - investing in a WR means you aren't investing in a guard. So under that context which you, not me, specifically brought up, absolutely I would have taken the WR investment over the guard investment. And that was last year before we knew Diggs was playing his last season in Buffalo.

 

And are you saying Jalin Hyatt wouldn't be a starting outside WR this year in our offense? He wouldn't be out-snapping Mack Hollins? If that's your opinion, have at it. I know where I stand.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

 

You can do that for every receiver in the NFL, even slot players...If you want Addison playing X for your team regularly, have at it.

 

If he was doing that on the Bills I instantly and I do mean instantly feel 20% better about the Bills. And I think Addison is best suited as a Z than an X but he'd be the best X on this team immediately. 

[FireChans]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Base level starting QBs absolutely ARE more valuable than any WR. Because the drop off from that QB to a backup QB is much larger than the drop off from Justin Jefferson to the next WR in the pipeline. If you don't believe me, check the point spreads when a QB is out versus when a WR is out. But likewise Jefferson being out would have a bigger effect on his team than say Micah Parsons being out. And so on down the line from there.

 

You can't sidestep the valuation or act like the NFL has it wrong. The market is the market and the results are clear - it's QB, then it's WR, then it's everything else.

Imagine watching the Bills miss the playoffs for 17 years because they had no QB, then paying Tyrod Taylor $20M a year because he had a single moderately successful year under center and your takeaway is “why is Daniel Jones commanding so much money?”

Edited September 5 by FireChans

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Dude we're talking about investment. That's where you brought the conversation - investing in a WR means you aren't investing in a guard. So under that context which you, not me, specifically brought up, absolutely I would have taken the WR investment over the guard investment. And that was last year before we knew Diggs was playing his last season in Buffalo.

 

And are you saying Jalin Hyatt wouldn't be a starting outside WR this year in our offense? He wouldn't be out-snapping Mack Hollins? If that's your opinion, have at it. I know where I stand.

If it is all about investment, and QB is more valuable than WR, shouldn’t we be drafting QBs high? After all, QB is the most valuable position. If not QB, maybe we should draft a bunch of DE high as up until this offseason they were the second/third most valuable position…oh wait, we did that and everyone hated it.

 

Football is a team sport. We aren’t talking about 7 on 7 or flag here…Having several top WR at the expense of other “less valuable” positions is bad team building.

 

Clearly this is pointless. The same group of posters feel a certain way about the WR group. The season is here now…guess we will just have to see what happens. 

[T master]

22 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Unless I’m really dumb, I don’t think that this is difficult to answer. You just keep redoing Josh’s contract whenever you need to. Just kick the can down the road for as long as you need to. 

 

Yah but then you wind up like the Saints, plus pretty soon Josh isn't going to like putting up the kind of numbers he does & being the 22nd highest paid QB in the NFL, so the Bills will probably sooner rather than later have to redo his deal .

 

If they continue to push it down the road & have to re up him that is going to turn into a S Show financially real quick & i don't believe Beane will allow that to happen given what he dd with Diggs this year .

Edited September 6 by T master

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, T master said:

 

Yah but then you wind up like the Saints, plus pretty soon Josh isn't going to like putting up the kind of numbers he does & being the 22nd highest paid QB in the NFL, so the Bills will probably sooner rather than later have to redo his deal .

 

If they continue to push it down the road & have to re up him that is going to turn into a S Show financially real quick & i don't believe Beane will allow that to happen given what he dd with Diggs this year .

I guess my philosophy is to kick the can as long as you need to while Josh is in his prime. This is your window. The Saints famously started this and it was for a similar reason, Brees in his prime. They probably should have won 2 Super Bowls in that window. While you have Josh, you need to be all in.

[Alphadawg7]

On 9/3/2024 at 3:18 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

The Bills have a bottom 3 WR room. There is no reason to believe a team in that state is playing scrubs like Hollins. Yes, he’s a scrub. Him playing isn’t something that we should be celebrating. He’s been in the league for a while and never been any good. That speaks to the quality of the WR room. Other teams are laughing at that.  
 

The Bills aren’t the Bears or the Dolphins or the Texans where they can have good guys sitting behind studs. The Bills WRs are not good compared to their peers. They cannot have their 1st pick behind Mack Hollins. If that was ever their intent, everyone should be fired. That’s what they said on their own depth chart, not whatever ESPN is guessing.
 

The Bills didn’t value the position. They traded down twice and took the 8th or 9th WR (I don’t remember which). He was up and down all offseason. Everything on his scouting report, good and bad, has held true through camp. The Bills didn’t have the luxury of a project that will open behind Hollins. They needed an immediate contributor. Let’s just hope that they don’t waste a season in the middle of Josh’s prime… 

 

Just curious if week 1 did anything to soften your extreme stance on Hollins and Coleman? 
 

And to be fair, it’s only one game and no final conclusions can come from just one game obviously.  But more wondering if at least softened your hard stance against Hollins and Coleman that you had coming into the game.  
 

 

Edited September 8 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Just curious if week 1 did anything to soften your extreme stance on Hollins and Coleman? 
 

And to be fair, it’s only one game and no final conclusions can come from just one game obviously.  But more wondering if at least softened your hard stance against Hollins and Coleman that you had coming into the game.  
 

 

Nope, Coleman has a chance to be a number 2. Hollins is a scrub that started. Watching him get announced was embarrassing. His numbers will be far beyond his talent. It’s a matter of opportunity. That’s been my point. Shavers/Isabella/Hamler/Cain could all do what he does with the same opportunity.
 

Coleman has some talent. He’s a high ceiling and low floor guy. He gets little to no separation. He’s good on crossers and has good ball skills. It looked almost exactly like I expected.

 

Those guys, and the coaches, are so lucky to have Josh Allen. He covers so many flaws. He’s incredible. Rousseau appears to be taking a step and the OL is pretty good. This team isn’t particularly talented or well coached. They just happen to have one of the best couple players in the game at QB. I said somewhere between 9-8 and 11-6. I’ve seen nothing to make me think differently. 

Edited September 9 by Kirby Jackson

[Alphadawg7]

20 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Nope, Coleman has a chance to be a number 2. Hollins is a scrub that started. Watching him get announced was embarrassing. His numbers will be far beyond his talent. It’s a matter of opportunity. That’s been my point. Shavers/Isabella/Hamler/Cain could all do what he does with the same opportunity.
 

Coleman has some talent. He’s a high ceiling and low floor guy. He gets little to no separation. He’s good on crossers and has good ball skills. It looked almost exactly like I expected.

 

Those guys, and the coaches, are so lucky to have Josh Allen. He covers so many flaws. He’s incredible. Rousseau appears to be taking a step and the OL is pretty good. This team isn’t particularly talented or well coached. They just happen to have one of the best couple players in the game at QB. I said somewhere between 9-8 and 11-6. I’ve seen nothing to make me think differently. 

 

Just to be clear, neither Hollins or Coleman started the game.  First play of the game was a Dart out of 12 personnel and the only 2 WR's on the field were out left in Shakir and Samuel.    

 

The 2nd play of the game was a passing play, and Coleman was the one in the game essentially making him the starting WR in the passing game.  He also had the most snaps of all the receivers Sunday too.  It's pretty clear Coleman is the "starting X" out there.  There were many times when Hollins and Coleman were also on the field together too.  

 

But honestly, still a little surprised you weren't at least encouraged by their week 1 games.