Receivers the Bills could go after?

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

100% agree.
 

I do stand by my point though, that a wr starved team, didn’t use their 1st draft pick on a guy that they expected to open the season behind Mack Hollins on the depth chart. That’s unquestionably a fail (at this point). 

I am really torn on this.

 

i think there’s an argument to take a Keon type WR who you expect to develop over a year or two. The comp is Davante Adams who doesn’t blossom right away. 
 

I don’t see it with Keon but if Beane and co do, then there’s some logic behind it not being a big deal. 
 

The other issue is that Mack Hollins is high on the depth chart at all, but that’s not necessarily reflective on Keon’s value. 

[Alphadawg7]

47 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

100% agree. I do stand by my point though, that a we starved team, didn’t use their 1st draft pick on a guy that they expected to open the season behind Mack Hollins on the depth chart. That’s unquestionably a fail (at this point). 

 

I think that is also nothing to make too much of.  McD has handled all rookies the same, unless there was a dire need for them to "start" out the gate, they often split time with Vets.  And with Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel, its probably more a technicality more than anything.  Also, ESPN shows Keon is starting on the depth chart as does CBS...which also doesn't mean much either.  

 

And there is no reason to expect a WR taken in the back half of the first round, early 2nd round should automatically be starting either on week 1.  And the one constant all of camp was that Keon took 100% of his snaps with the starters, so they clearly feel he is ready to play relevant snaps no matter who is designated the "starter" week 1.  I mean Hollins could start the first play of the game and then sit out 10 straight plays.  its a pretty insignificant designation right now and will be more interested in seeing how the snap counts end up and target shares end up.  

 

And again, ESPN shows him ahead of Hollins too.  I think we just need to wait and see Sunday and we will see where everything is at. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/depth/_/name/buf/buffalo-bills

 

But to be clear, as I have always said, I do believe Hollins will play more than people think this year.  They love his blocking and leadership and he is a credible receiver as well.  I think his role will be bigger than previous WR4 type roles in the past.

 

Edited September 3 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

29 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I am really torn on this.

 

i think there’s an argument to take a Keon type WR who you expect to develop over a year or two. The comp is Davante Adams who doesn’t blossom right away. 
 

I don’t see it with Keon but if Beane and co do, then there’s some logic behind it not being a big deal. 
 

The other issue is that Mack Hollins is high on the depth chart at all, but that’s not necessarily reflective on Keon’s value. 

Fair

 

I believe that they knew Coleman was a high ceiling, low floor guy. I don’t believe that they thought he would open the year behind Hollins. That just isn’t logical. It’s possible that they thought other rookies may start faster (McConkey for example) but over time Coleman would pass them. That I’ll buy. I just don’t think that they’d take a guy, as desperate as they were, that would open up behind a journeyman. 

Edited September 3 by Kirby Jackson

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think that is also nothing to make too much of.  McD has handled all rookies the same, unless there was a dire need for them to "start" out the gate, they often split time with Vets.  And with Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel, its probably more a technicality more than anything.  Also, ESPN shows Keon is starting on the depth chart.

 

And there is no reason to expect a WR taken in the back half of the first round, early 2nd round should automatically be starting either on week 1.  And the one constant all of camp was that Keon took 100% of his snaps with the starters, so they clearly feel he is ready to play relevant snaps no matter who is designated the "starter" week 1.  I mean Hollins could start the first play of the game and then sit out 10 straight plays.  its a pretty insignificant designation right now and will be more interested in seeing how the snap counts end up and target shares end up.  

 

And again, ESPN shows him ahead of Hollins too.  I think we just need to wait and see Sunday and we will see where everything is at. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/depth/_/name/buf/buffalo-bills

 

But to be clear, as I have always said, I do believe Hollins will play more than people think this year.  They love his blocking and leadership and he is a credible receiver as well.  I think his role will be bigger than previous WR4 type roles in the past.

 

The Bills have a bottom 3 WR room. There is no reason to believe a team in that state is playing scrubs like Hollins. Yes, he’s a scrub. Him playing isn’t something that we should be celebrating. He’s been in the league for a while and never been any good. That speaks to the quality of the WR room. Other teams are laughing at that.  
 

The Bills aren’t the Bears or the Dolphins or the Texans where they can have good guys sitting behind studs. The Bills WRs are not good compared to their peers. They cannot have their 1st pick behind Mack Hollins. If that was ever their intent, everyone should be fired. That’s what they said on their own depth chart, not whatever ESPN is guessing.
 

The Bills didn’t value the position. They traded down twice and took the 8th or 9th WR (I don’t remember which). He was up and down all offseason. Everything on his scouting report, good and bad, has held true through camp. The Bills didn’t have the luxury of a project that will open behind Hollins. They needed an immediate contributor. Let’s just hope that they don’t waste a season in the middle of Josh’s prime… 

[BillsVet]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Bills have a bottom 3 WR room. There is no reason to believe a team in that state is playing scrubs like Hollins. Yes, he’s a scrub. Him playing isn’t something that we should be celebrating. He’s been in the league for a while and never been any good. That speaks to the quality of the WR room. Other teams are laughing at that.  
 

The Bills aren’t the Bears or the Dolphins or the Texans where they can have good guys sitting behind studs. The Bills WRs are not good compared to their peers. They cannot have their 1st pick behind Mack Hollins. If that was ever their intent, everyone should be fired. That’s what they said on their own depth chart, not whatever ESPN is guessing.
 

The Bills didn’t value the position. They traded down twice and took the 8th or 9th WR (I don’t remember which). He was up and down all offseason. Everything on his scouting report, good and bad, has held true through camp. The Bills didn’t have the luxury of a project that will open behind Hollins. They needed an immediate contributor. Let’s just hope that they don’t waste a season in the middle of Josh’s prime… 

 

I sometimes think they're satisfied it's a winning strategy to have Josh with Brady's complementary football friendly offensive scheme.  That, skilled talent is secondary and the QB + scheme will be their competitive advantage.  And probably, that some guys are going to break out like Shakir and Kincaid.  

 

If it works, great.  But if it doesn't...for all the talk about how Beane and McDermott are improving, that's a significant miscalculation.  This is a matchup league and scheme can only get you so far.  

 

It's why I'd expect a trade by the deadline and Beane will then take a victory lap for making that move.  Somewhat like trading for Benjamin in 2017...after botching the WR room that off-season.  

[LABILLBACKER]

The wr room is definitely a mess.  There's no arguing that. And as others have said accurately, this organization is not aggressively interested in wrs. They will always expect way too much from Josh at the risk of weaker weapons. Teams like KC, Cincy, Mia, Hou and SF have multiple stud receivers.  20-23 we had 1 guy...Diggs.  2024 and beyond we may again have only 1 guy...Kincaid?  The fact that McB have never surrounded JA17 with more weapons will historically be their downfall. 

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Bills have a bottom 3 WR room. There is no reason to believe a team in that state is playing scrubs like Hollins. Yes, he’s a scrub. Him playing isn’t something that we should be celebrating. He’s been in the league for a while and never been any good. That speaks to the quality of the WR room. Other teams are laughing at that.  

 

The scub as you put it, is essentially WR4 (Shakir, Samuel, Keon), and really WR5 when you factor in Kincaid.  I can tell you without a doubt, Hollins is as good or even a lot better than many teams 4th and 5th receivers.  Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel, and even Keon are 100% going to get more targets than Hollins, without a doubt.  Our RB's will likely account for 100 targets themselves, which will really make Hollins maybe even WR6 on the target list by years end.  

 

So you are losing it over a guy who is almost guaranteed (barring injuries) to be at best the 5th target on this team, maybe less.  And Hollins isn't the scrub you make him out to be.  He is no world beater, but he has value. especially given we are talking about a guy who won't be higher than 5th or 6th in targets.

 

44 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Bills aren’t the Bears or the Dolphins or the Texans where they can have good guys sitting behind studs. The Bills WRs are not good compared to their peers. They cannot have their 1st pick behind Mack Hollins. If that was ever their intent, everyone should be fired. That’s what they said on their own depth chart, not whatever ESPN is guessing.

 

Again, there is nothing that says he is behind Hollins anyway.  ESPN and CBS show Keon as the starter.  We don't really know because we have not played any games yet.  And who "starts" means nothing...its who is playing more snaps and who is getting more targets that matter on the field.  

 

44 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

The Bills didn’t value the position. They traded down twice and took the 8th or 9th WR (I don’t remember which). He was up and down all offseason. Everything on his scouting report, good and bad, has held true through camp. The Bills didn’t have the luxury of a project that will open behind Hollins. They needed an immediate contributor. Let’s just hope that they don’t waste a season in the middle of Josh’s prime… 

 

Ok, lets look at this over dramatic paragraph here...and I mean no disrespect to you, but this is quite the dramatic response about us "trading back".  

 

There were ONLY 3 guys we could have taken besides Keon that went before our pick...NONE are starting outside WR's going into week 1, and NONE have had any where close to as good of a camp as Keon has had.  

 

Worthy - Struggling with press coverage, and didn't have a strong camp where he also got dinged up early with his small frame.

Pearsall - Not starting, and was not having a standout camp and one of the reasons why SF caved and gave more to keep Aiyuk.  

Leggette - Not starting and didn't have a good camp where he himself literally stated "I wish I studied the playbook more" as he was struggling in camp and also digned up.

 

Thats it.  So for all your dramatic "we traded down" rants, that was all we "missed out one" by trading back, and clearly they didn't value any of them or they would have taken them when they had the chance.  Keon without a doubt has had the better camp of any of them and one of the best camps of any WR in this class.  

 

And what I bolded above...that is false.  That is you projecting your negative bias to him, the reports on Coleman have been predominantly glowing all camp long.  There have been no credible reports about any struggles by him other than normal rookie stuff, and even then he has excelled for the most part.

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

The scub as you put it, is essentially WR4 (Shakir, Samuel, Keon), and really WR5 when you factor in Kincaid.  I can tell you without a doubt, Hollins is as good or even a lot better than many teams 4th and 5th receivers.  Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel, and even Keon are 100% going to get more targets than Hollins, without a doubt.  Our RB's will likely account for 100 targets themselves, which will really make Hollins maybe even WR6 on the target list by years end.  

 

So you are losing it over a guy who is almost guaranteed (barring injuries) to be at best the 5th target on this team, maybe less.  And Hollins isn't the scrub you make him out to be.  He is no world beater, but he has value. especially given we are talking about a guy who won't be higher than 5th or 6th in targets.

 

 

Again, there is nothing that says he is behind Hollins anyway.  ESPN and CBS show Keon as the starter.  We don't really know because we have not played any games yet.  And who "starts" means nothing...its who is playing more snaps and who is getting more targets that matter on the field.  

 

 

Ok, lets look at this over dramatic paragraph here...and I mean no disrespect to you, but this is quite the dramatic response about us "trading back".  

 

There were ONLY 3 guys we could have taken besides Keon that went before our pick...NONE are starting outside WR's going into week 1, and NONE have had any where close to as good of a camp as Keon has had.  

 

Worthy - Struggling with press coverage, and didn't have a strong camp where he also got dinged up early with his small frame.

Pearsall - Not starting, and was not having a standout camp and one of the reasons why SF caved and gave more to keep Aiyuk.  

Leggette - Not starting and didn't have a good camp where he himself literally stated "I wish I studied the playbook more" as he was struggling in camp and also digned up.

 

Thats it.  So for all your dramatic "we traded down" rants, that was all we "missed out one" by trading back, and clearly they didn't value any of them or they would have taken them when they had the chance.  Keon without a doubt has had the better camp of any of them and one of the best camps of any WR in this class.  

 

And what I bolded above...that is false.  That is you projecting your negative bias to him, the reports on Coleman have been predominantly glowing all camp long.  There have been no credible reports about any struggles by him other than normal rookie stuff, and even then he has excelled for the most part.

Man, you STILL don’t get it. The fact that Hollins and Coleman are COMPETING is the failure. You could NOT use your first draft pick on a guy that isn’t light years ahead of that scrub.  The Bills own depth chart says that’s the case. You’re just referencing ESPN and CBS to fit your narrative. The reality is that they are splitting time.  
 

And yes, Hollins is a scrub. You could insert 50 guys from practice squads and get equal production with equal opportunity. He’s just a guy. He’s Sherfield. He’s Crowder. He’s McKenzie. He’s Hodgins.

 

What’s dramatic about trading back? They traded back twice. That’s 100% true. Spinning it any other way to fit a narrative is disingenuous and just false. They were desperate for a WR and said, “I’ll take my chances moving back a few slots (twice).” Clearly you don’t do that if you love a guy. There is nothing dramatic about it. That’s what happened.
 

On Keon’s camp, slow down. He was okay. They were talking about it a lot on WGR lately. Today they said, he had minimal to no separation all of camp. He made some big plays. That’s what happened. Let’s not just pick and choose the good to fit our narrative. Let’s live in reality. It was up and down (which was to be expected). You’re misleading everyone with this “elite camp” nonsense. They were literally talking about his lack of separation on the extra point show today. 
 

I’m not trying to pick on you but I’m tired of the hyperbole on here (good and bad). We literally are lying to ourselves to create false narratives to make us feel better about things. This place is way better in reality. The Bills have an elite QB. They’re very good at corner and TE. The OL & DL look to be fine. The LBs and RBs have some ability. The WRs have some role players but are a bottom 3 group. That’s okay. We don’t need to pretend things are different than they are. 

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

I’m not trying to pick on you but I’m tired of the hyperbole on here (good and bad). 

On above:  Don’t worry about it, I’m not taking it personal or that you’re picking specifically on me, you haven’t been disrespectful.  We just have very different opinions, and hope you’re not taking it as anything other than that too.

But honestly, you might be the only person I’ve ever seen melt down this much about a guy (Hollins) slated to be at best the 5th or 6th targeted player on an offense.  
 

So how about a friendly wager to make it fun?

 

2 bets:  

 

1 - Keon will finish with more targets than Hollins.  

 

2 - Hollins won’t finish higher than 5th in targets. 
 

Pick a friendly amount and I’m down.  Although I seriously doubt you take this bet because you are smart enough to know that it’s completely ludicrous to even suggest Hollins will be ahead of Keon this year as a receiver despite all your wasted energy on the matter.  But hey, I’m down if you really do believe he is.  
 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Alphadawg7

[balln]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You might be the only person I’ve ever seen melt down about a guy slated to be the 5th or 6th targeted player on an offense.  So let’s make it interesting…

 

How much money do you want to bet that Keon finishes with more targets than Hollins? 

 

I will also make a second wager of any amount of your choosing that Hollins doesn’t finish higher than 5th in targets without injuries coming into play.  
 

 

 

I’ll take a 5% fee to process this juicy transaction !

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Upon further, further review:

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/team/depth-chart

 

Sort of off topic, but why in the world is Ray Davis listed BEHIND Ty Johnson? It is almost pathological this regime's need to "make the rookies earn it" even if it means casting aside what everyone can see plainly with their own eyes. There is no universe where Hollins and Johnson should be getting more touches than Coleman and Davis. Not even in game one. Get the rookies on the field and let them learn. What exactly do we have to gain in a rebuild season by putting them behind washed up vets? I really hope this depth chart is just McDermott trying to humble the rookies and that it isn't the reality on Sunday.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sort of off topic, but why in the world is Ray Davis listed BEHIND Ty Johnson? It is almost pathological this regime's need to "make the rookies earn it" even if it means casting aside what everyone can see plainly with their own eyes. There is no universe where Hollins and Johnson should be getting more touches than Coleman and Davis. Not even in game one. Get the rookies on the field and let them learn. What exactly do we have to gain in a rebuild season by putting them behind washed up vets? I really hope this depth chart is just McDermott trying to humble the rookies and that it isn't the reality on Sunday.

I would bet money that won’t be the depth chart Sunday.  

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sort of off topic, but why in the world is Ray Davis listed BEHIND Ty Johnson? It is almost pathological this regime's need to "make the rookies earn it" even if it means casting aside what everyone can see plainly with their own eyes. There is no universe where Hollins and Johnson should be getting more touches than Coleman and Davis. Not even in game one. Get the rookies on the field and let them learn. What exactly do we have to gain in a rebuild season by putting them behind washed up vets? I really hope this depth chart is just McDermott trying to humble the rookies and that it isn't the reality on Sunday.

Spot on 

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Bills have a bottom 3 WR room. There is no reason to believe a team in that state is playing scrubs like Hollins. Yes, he’s a scrub. Him playing isn’t something that we should be celebrating. He’s been in the league for a while and never been any good. That speaks to the quality of the WR room. Other teams are laughing at that.  
 

The Bills aren’t the Bears or the Dolphins or the Texans where they can have good guys sitting behind studs. The Bills WRs are not good compared to their peers. They cannot have their 1st pick behind Mack Hollins. If that was ever their intent, everyone should be fired. That’s what they said on their own depth chart, not whatever ESPN is guessing.
 

The Bills didn’t value the position. They traded down twice and took the 8th or 9th WR (I don’t remember which). He was up and down all offseason. Everything on his scouting report, good and bad, has held true through camp. The Bills didn’t have the luxury of a project that will open behind Hollins. They needed an immediate contributor. Let’s just hope that they don’t waste a season in the middle of Josh’s prime… 

Very well said. 

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The wr room is definitely a mess.  There's no arguing that. And as others have said accurately, this organization is not aggressively interested in wrs. They will always expect way too much from Josh at the risk of weaker weapons. Teams like KC, Cincy, Mia, Hou and SF have multiple stud receivers.  20-23 we had 1 guy...Diggs.  2024 and beyond we may again have only 1 guy...Kincaid?  The fact that McB have never surrounded JA17 with more weapons will historically be their downfall. 

I'm hopeful that a WR or 2e roster surprises us. However, I'm not sure how any Bills fan can be happy about what the Bills have on the WR roster. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

On above:  Don’t worry about it, I’m not taking it personal or that you’re picking specifically on me, you haven’t been disrespectful.  We just have very different opinions, and hope you’re not taking it as anything other than that too.

But honestly, you might be the only person I’ve ever seen melt down this much about a guy (Hollins) slated to be at best the 5th or 6th targeted player on an offense.  
 

So how about a friendly wager to make it fun?

 

2 bets:  

 

1 - Keon will finish with more targets than Hollins.  

 

2 - Hollins won’t finish higher than 5th in targets. 
 

Pick a friendly amount and I’m down.  Although I seriously doubt you take this bet because you are smart enough to know that it’s completely ludicrous to even suggest Hollins will be ahead of Keon this year as a receiver despite all your wasted energy on the matter.  But hey, I’m down if you really do believe he is.  
 

 

 

I know a guy who might take this bet.

 

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But to be clear, as I have always said, I do believe Hollins will play more than people think this year.  They love his blocking and leadership and he is a credible receiver as well.  I think his role will be bigger than previous WR4 type roles in the past

 

[Dr. Who]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm hopeful that a WR or 2e roster surprises us. However, I'm not sure how any Bills fan can be happy about what the Bills have on the WR roster. 

I'm not sure what the effects of snorting Kool-Aid would be, but I think it may be the answer to the folks who are, shall we say, enthusiastically optimistic.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I know a guy who might take this bet.

 

 

You need a new schtick cuz you aren’t good at this one.  
 

 

Edited September 4 by Alphadawg7

[LABILLBACKER]

12 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Very well said. 

I'm hopeful that a WR or 2e roster surprises us. However, I'm not sure how any Bills fan can be happy about what the Bills have on the WR roster. 

I think assuming they stay healthy,  we can expect decent production from Samuel, Shakir and Kincaid.  In a perfect world and for the sake of development,  I'd hope Coleman gets the 4th most targets. But we're still desperately lacking an outside speed guy. Hopefully that comes next draft?

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Fair

 

I believe that they knew Coleman was a high ceiling, low floor guy. I don’t believe that they thought he would open the year behind Hollins. That just isn’t logical. It’s possible that they thought other rookies may start faster (McConkey for example) but over time Coleman would pass them. That I’ll buy. I just don’t think that they’d take a guy, as desperate as they were, that would open up behind a journeyman. 

 

No disrespect...but the most interesting thing to me is that you don't seem to even understand the root of your own Keon is a "failure of a pick" argument doesn't really have anything to do with Keon.  You are making it about Keon because he also was not "your guy" in the draft, so it provides some easy to reach confirmation bias, which is understandable.  But, what it is clearly really about that you have not gotten your mind to accept that the coaches actually seem to like and have some perceived plans for Hollins, and that wouldn't likely be much different no matter who we took at 28, 32, or 33.  

 

And because of that, you are now translating and projecting that to mean everything about Keon is a "failure" of a pick because your opinion is so different than the coaches on Hollins that you have decided that the only way Hollins can be in the mix for snaps is if Keon is a "failure" and behind where he should be.  

 

If you still don't see that, then try this:  Name a WR that was available at 28, 32, or 33 that the Bills could have taken that:

1. Definitively had a better camp than Keon, so much so he would have a higher standing and bigger role right now with the Bills coaches than Keon currently has.
2. Would have eliminated Hollins completely from the coaches plans to where right now today Hollins would not be in the mix for anything other than a role similar to say Kumerows where it was mostly about ST.  

If you can't identify a WR that the Bills "should" have taken at 28, 32, or 33 that has had a better camp than Keon to the point the coaches wouldn't have Hollins in the mix for snaps then your entire "Keon is a failure" argument is the actual failure here.  And the reality is, as hard as it is for you to accept, that Hollins being in the mix has more to do with the coaches than anything Keon is "failing" to do.  

 

NOTE:  Here is the most ironic part of all this...What they have spoken the most highly about with Hollins is his blocking ability and size, so for a WR to really keep Hollins off the field more, then size and blocking is going to have to be present with said prospect.  And Keon we know has size and was also by many, including Beane and our staff, to be the best blocker of all the WR's in the draft.  Meaning of all the WR's available to us at our picks, Keon's game is the one that has a better chance to reduce Hollins primary value more than anyone.

Edited September 4 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You need a new schtick cuz you aren’t good at this one.  
 

 

huh?

 

You said Hollins is gonna play more than a standard WR4. I'm assuming your WR's 1-3 are Samuel, Shakir and Coleman. If we are predominantly in 11 or 12 personnel like most NFL teams, any snap that Hollins sees is going to take away from one or two of the guys above them. If they aren't on the field, they can't get a target.

 

Who do you expect to see more snaps this season. Hollins or Coleman?

 

Personally, I could see Coleman getting a few more targets and Hollins playing more snaps over the course of the year.  But what I think some would prefer is Coleman (and Shakir/Samuel) to keep a known quantity like Hollins on the bench, which is @Kirby Jackson's point.