Receivers the Bills could go after?

[ColoradoBills]

Still lots or arguing over this WR stuff.  LOL.

 

Nothing "earth shattering" is going to happen.  The only thing that would cause that is a severe injury.

 

It's Samuels, Shakir, Coleman and Hollins as the top 4.  How they are used with Kincaid, Knox and the RBs is UNKNOWN as of now.

MVS is going to make the team along with one of the others (who will have ST value).

 

If Samuels can't go Week 1, they will adjust the targets accordingly.  Everyone can comment on how they feel about this but it's useless

to debate about any new WR moves because that is not happening.  If fans want to argue about the passing game, it seems to me it

is better applied as to HOW Brady will use the players he has.

IMO, not that anyone cares.

 

 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, seriously? That doesn’t make sense to you? We aren’t talking about all 32 picks starting!! For example, the plan was never for Penix to start this year. 
 

We are talking about a guy picked at 33, playing ahead of a guy entering year 7, that has averaged 22 receptions & 282 yards per season. All 32 teams would be appalled if their 1st draft pick couldn’t beat that guy out. That guy is a 5th WR (probably a 4th here behind Coleman). 
 

I am guessing that Coleman plays ahead of Hollins. I was surprised when Tasker and Brown mentioned that it was a competition last week. That’s a problem. If Coleman isn’t WAY ahead of that guy at this point, he’s not where they believed that he would be. With their desperate need for a high end WR, they didn’t plan on having that guy battling Mack Hollins in late August. 

Just depends who you are drafting.  Keon is a 20 year old raw WR that needed a lot of work on his route running.  Everyone knew that.  They love the person and his physical stature.  He may not be the ideal draftee for those looking for instant impact, but which potential outside WRs could we have drafted that would be ahead of Hollins right now?  
 

Xavier Worthy is currently behind Justin Watson fwiw.  Piersall is behind Chris Conley and Juaun Jennings.  

 

Dalton Kincaid was a 24 year old rookie who didn’t start and was behind an average TE.  
 

I get your point, but making assumptions based Depth charts in august isn’t a good way to evaluate a draft pick imo.  Some are more ready than others.  
 

with my first round pick, I’d rather draft a high upside prospect that will take time to develop than a high floor, lower ceiling player that is ready to start day 1.  
 

I also believe that Hollins is better than you and most other think.  He’s a monster run blocker and we’re going to be running a lot.  He’s going to get a decent amount of snaps based on that alone.  

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That isn't what he is saying. He is saying if your first round pick (Coleman was #33 but point stands) isn't starting and is behind a complete journeyman like Mack Hollins that is a reason to be concerned. He is not saying Coleman is a failure or Beane is a failure. Or that all first round picks must start. 

 

Except for the fact that what he is saying isn't true.

 

There is literally zero evidence of any kind supporting that, and a pile of evidence showing that it is categorically not the case.  And he has even admitted multiple times he does not even know that Keon is behind Hollins even though he keeps pushing this theory.  What is worse, is he based this "theory" on what he "heard" 2 media guys say (whose job is to speculate and entertain for a living)...of which his initial claim was that they said he was behind Hollins.  When presented with clear evidence that does not seem to support that like the fact that Keon has started both preseason games and only taken all his reps with the ones since day 1 of camp, he then changed the theory and what they said to be that he is in "competition" with Hollins.  So the base theory here has not even remained consistent as those are 2 very different "theories".  

 

To be honest, seeing you echo a theory with no supporting evidence other than a changing accounting for what someone claims 2 media guys said is a bit surprising.  You don't generally operate on such flimsy statements.

 

What is even more puzzling is that Keon has easily had one of the best camps of any Bills player this year, where he has taken all of his reps with the first unit since day 1.  There is nothing he has done to relinquish the starting role he has been in since day 1 of camp.  So its not like he is even struggling and Hollins has been rising to take his job away.  Furthermore, the coaches have made no adjustments at all to Keon's role to suggest anything other than him being a starter thus far.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Unfortunately Kirby, this regime clearly didn't see a high end WR as a desperate need. If they did and expected Coleman to immediately step in and be that guy, that is even worse. I don't see Coleman vs Hollins as the battle. If anything it was Coleman vs Hollins vs MVS for two spots, and MVS has emerged as the clear loser. I expect Coleman's usage to ramp up as the season goes along, which is the expectation for a 2nd round talent. Rashee Rice last year averaged just 34.6 YPG in his first 5 games, but 69.5 YPG in his final 11. Look for progress in October, not in August.

All fair and I generally agree. Coleman will certainly play more as the year goes along. I guess my issue is what you hit on. They weren’t as desperate as they should have been. Coleman has been up and down this offseason. What he does well, he’s been good at. What he’s bad at, he’s struggled with. Long term, he may be good. IMO, the Bills needed a guy that is at, or near the top of the depth chart, now. They needed an alpha, not a high ceiling low floor guy to battle Mack Hollins for reps.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think it has much to do with Coleman himself. It's been known since the draft that Hollins would get a significant amount of playing time. Until MVS was signed out of desperation, Hollins was the only player on the roster to have received a majority of his snaps outside in the NFL. I don't know if he is ahead of Coleman in the coaching staff's mind or vice versa, but both are going to get a lot of playing time outside because they are the only real options we have there. And yes it represents a massive failure of this regime to have a 2nd round rookie and a journeyman JAG as the primary outside receiving options in the prime of Allen's career.

 

Much like this regime did when they drafted Allen, they have drafted a raw physical talent that was known to need a development track and are instead throwing him into the deep end of the pool because they've left themselves no other options. If Hollins ends up in front of Coleman on the opening depth chart, that isn't any more concerning than Nate Peterman opening the season ahead of Allen on the depth chart in 2018.

Similar to Brett Veach and his massive failure last season.  
 

it may certainly turn out to be a massive failure, but as of now, its all speculation.  Joe Brady will determine if it’s a failure or not, just like Reid determined the same for the chiefs last season.  Not a guy on the couch with a phone

[Alphadawg7]

34 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Word for word this would be true of almost any rookie prospect that wasn't a blue chip, no? Did anyone really expect Coleman to refine his game by the end of August in his rookie season? You take a prospect like him because you believe that his flaws are fixable, but not overnight. Separating/creating leverage in tight coverage from NFL boundary CBs is an art as much as it is a science and it's going to take him time to learn how to use his pure physical gifts to master that part of the game. Fans are of course right to have concerns about the WR room as a whole and about Coleman potentially getting more volume than he can handle right now, but having concerns about Coleman in general at this infant stage of his NFL career really isn't reasonable IMO.

 

 

What is funny to me about all this is that everyone used to say "year 3" was when WR's most often put it all together and breakout to reach their potential (I never really agreed with that per se, but that was what people felt was the more common arc).  Keon for some reason is a failure though if he hasn't done that before the end of preseason as a rookie.

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Word for word this would be true of almost any rookie prospect that wasn't a blue chip, no? Did anyone really expect Coleman to refine his game by the end of August in his rookie season? You take a prospect like him because you believe that his flaws are fixable, but not overnight. Separating/creating leverage in tight coverage from NFL boundary CBs is an art as much as it is a science and it's going to take him time to learn how to use his pure physical gifts to master that part of the game. Fans are of course right to have concerns about the WR room as a whole and about Coleman potentially getting more volume than he can handle right now, but having concerns about Coleman in general at this infant stage of his NFL career really isn't reasonable IMO.

 

 

I don't have "concerns" about Coleman so much as I think the guy we drafted is the guy we drafted and while, of course, the guy we drafted to me wasn't one you easily projected to winning on the outside regularly enough. And that is why you end up where you are talking about whether or not Mack Hollins plays over him. I think there is a world where Keon Coleman proves he can play and we still need a true outside receiver.

36 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

Then what's the failure, when he says "the fact that it is a discussion is a failure"?  

 

Is the act of discussing the failure?  If not....

 

The construction of this receiver room rather than a single individual or single decision. At least that is how I interpret it. But @Kirby Jackson can speak for himself if that is incorrect.

[pennstate10]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That isn't what he is saying. He is saying if your first round pick (Coleman was #33 but point stands) isn't starting and is behind a complete journeyman like Mack Hollins that is a reason to be concerned. He is not saying Coleman is a failure or Beane is a failure. Or that all first round picks must start. 

The exact word he used was “failure”.

 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The construction of this receiver room rather than a single individual or single decision. At least that is how I interpret it. But @Kirby Jackson can speak for himself if that is incorrect.

I am not saying he does not also believe that, and he probably does based on some of his other shared thoughts, which is fair for him or anyone to have given we still haven't seen this group play on a real game yet.  But this line of dialogue the poster was referencing came from his very specific statements on Keon.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

The exact word he used was “failure”.

 

Got you bro because clearly you didn’t follow (despite Gunner explaining). The failure is the construction of the WR room. You weren’t in position to add a prospect capable of losing reps to Mack Hollins this year. You needed to do better. They backed themselves into a corner and needed a guy at the top of the depth chart. The failure is the mismanagement of the position, not the player splitting time with Mack Hollins. He was always raw and has a high ceiling. They don’t have the luxury to wait on his development. They needed him further along than he apparently is. Hope that clears up your confusion…

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

I am not saying he does not also believe that, and he probably does based on some of his other shared thoughts, which is fair for him or anyone to have given we still haven't seen this group play on a real game yet.  But this line of dialogue the poster was referencing came from his very specific statements on Keon.

See above if you are also confused…

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Got you bro because clearly you didn’t follow (despite Gunner explaining). The failure is the construction of the WR room. You weren’t in position to add a prospect capable of losing reps to Mack Hollins this year. You needed to do better. They backed themselves into a corner and needed a guy at the top of the depth chart. The failure is the mismanagement of the position, not the player splitting time with Mack Hollins. He was always raw and has a high ceiling. They don’t have the luxury to wait on his development. They needed him further along than he apparently is. Hope that clears up your confusion…

 

Ok so you say this...

 

48 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

See above if you are also confused…

 

Then you say this as if that is not very specifically about Keon?  No disrespect, I am not seeing how that is not directly about the them selecting Keon as their failure you are alluding too.  Totally get and accept you also think the overall management was a failure, but still its being presented to be specifically about Keon being a failure of a selection in your eyes.

 

And you are still tying that "failure" to something that does not appear to be true.   

Edited August 24 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

28 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ok so you say this...

 

 

Then you say this as if that is not very specifically about Keon?  No disrespect, I am not seeing how that is not directly about the them selecting Keon as their failure you are alluding too.  Totally get and accept you also think the overall management was a failure, but still its being presented to be specifically about Keon being a failure of a selection in your eyes.

 

And you are still tying that "failure" to something that does not appear to be true.   

Let me clarify again because it still isn’t resonating. Coleman isn’t a failure. He’s behind where he needs to be. The failure is using your top pick on a guy that is capable of playing behind Hollins. Coleman isn’t where he needs to be but that isn’t his fault. He was a raw, high ceiling, low floor prospect.

 

The failure is on Beane for entering the season with this group. He needed to draft a guy that could be good today not in 2 years. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

The exact word he used was “failure”.

 

 

Yes but I think it was about the process not an individual.

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Let me clarify again because it still isn’t resonating. Coleman isn’t a failure. He’s behind where he needs to be. The failure is using your top pick on a guy that is capable of playing behind Hollins. Coleman isn’t where he needs to be but that isn’t his fault. He was a raw, high ceiling, low floor prospect.

 

The failure is on Beane for entering the season with this group. He needed to draft a guy that could be good today not in 2 years. 

 

Ok, I have a clear understanding now of what your position is.  And hey, no issue with any of your doubt or skepticism given he still hasn't played a snap yet in a real game.

 

But...there is still no evidence he is playing behind Hollins or losing reps to him.  In fact, literally all evidence shows that to be inaccurate.  Keon has taken every one of his reps with the first team offense since day 1.  He stared both games including the one Hollins played in.  Hollins has not exclusively been with the ones, he has gotten some reps there for sure, but that is to be expected given he has no experience with Allen and will have a role on the team.  

 

That is where my hangup is on your theory...this insistence, despite your own statement that you don't know that its true, that he is either behind Hollins or losing reps to him even though there is no real evidence to support this.  

[Kirby Jackson]

Deon Cain 👀

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Deon Cain 👀

 

Would he count as a PS vet? Or not? If not I fancy his chances for a spot there.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Would he count as a PS vet? Or not? If not I fancy his chances for a spot there.

I think so. He is a better “bet” than Claypool IMO. They have similar ability but one has less character concerns.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ok, I have a clear understanding now of what your position is.  And hey, no issue with any of your doubt or skepticism given he still hasn't played a snap yet in a real game.

 

But...there is still no evidence he is playing behind Hollins or losing reps to him.  In fact, literally all evidence shows that to be inaccurate.  Keon has taken every one of his reps with the first team offense since day 1.  He stared both games including the one Hollins played in.  Hollins has not exclusively been with the ones, he has gotten some reps there for sure, but that is to be expected given he has no experience with Allen and will have a role on the team.  

 

That is where my hangup is on your theory...this insistence, despite your own statement that you don't know that its true, that he is either behind Hollins or losing reps to him even though there is no real evidence to support this.  

Last thing, to be clear, I’m not sure that he is behind Hollins. In fact, I doubt that’s possible. Tasker and Brown were talking about it last week. It was surprising. If that’s the case, it’s a nightmare. Neither played today. We will know for sure in 2 weeks.I can’t wrap my head around the Bills feeling more confident in Mack. Hopefully that isn’t the case.

 

That conversation though was triggering for me. When they discussed it, my mind went to, “wait a minute this dude is battling Mack Hollins for reps?” It didn’t sit well.

 

I don’t believe that the Bills did enough at the position. I love Beane. It’s biggest blind spot. 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Last thing, to be clear, I’m not sure that he is behind Hollins. In fact, I doubt that’s possible. Tasker and Brown were talking about it last week. It was surprising. If that’s the case, it’s a nightmare. Neither played today. We will know for sure in 2 weeks.I can’t wrap my head around the Bills feeling more confident in Mack. Hopefully that isn’t the case.

 

That conversation though was triggering for me. When they discussed it, my mind went to, “wait a minute this dude is battling Mack Hollins for reps?” It didn’t sit well.

 

I don’t believe that the Bills did enough at the position. I love Beane. It’s biggest blind spot. 

 

I get that, but I just think you got triggered on something that was either a misunderstanding or just not accurate given Keon has shown no signs of being behind where they want him to be or losing ground to say Hollins.

 

All good...just think while the jury is still out on how he, or any of them, will do this season it is still safe to say Keon isn't likely behind Hollins and never was based on what the coaches have said and done on the field.

 

I do expect Hollins to have a role on this team this year, more of one than say Sherfield did last year as they do love his ability to block as well.

Edited August 24 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I get that, but I just think you got triggered on something that was either a misunderstanding or just not accurate given Keon has shown no signs of being behind where they want him to be or losing ground to say Hollins.

 

All good...just think while the jury is still out on how he, or any of them, will do this season it is still safe to say Keon isn't likely behind Hollins and never was based on what the coaches have said and done on the field.

 

I do expect Hollins to have a role on this team this year, more of one than say Sherfield did last year as they do love his ability to block as well.

Maybe it’s not a misunderstanding though. That’s where I go to. Those dudes are there every day. I would bet that the Bills didn’t want them vocalizing that for fear of triggering people like me. Maybe it’s nothing. If it’s something it’s not good.

The Bills NEED Keon to be good now. They would have needed the same from: Worthy, Legette, AD Mitchell, Corley, Baker, Polk, Pearsall, etc… That’s been the point. Whether it was Coleman or someone else this wasn’t a spot for someone to “grow into.”

 

I am on record as not loving the pick but that’s a different point. While I didn’t love the pick, I liked the philosophy far less. 

Edited August 24 by Kirby Jackson