Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Don't disagree with what you posted.

I just disagree with the approach. We should be win now at all costs.  Not waiting for a WR to develop. 

Again if the idea is spread the ball around and attack with multiple guys it can work.  Josh and Brady just need to execute that type of offense. 

Disagree-  with our first pick, we we should be drafting the premium position players with the highest upside-  not the players with the highest floors.  Drafting for the upcoming season is 👎🏻 
 

 

[Mark Vader]

13 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Agree. 

The Coleman trade down selection is not looking great so far, coupled with refusing to add a real FA replacement

This is what I was begging from the Bills during the offseason, even before they traded away Diggs.

 

Going after receivers like Van Jefferson, DJ Chark, or Donovon Peoples-Jones would've been a good move and very easy for the Bills to accomplish.

[Logic]

Seeing the lack of success for our receivers so far this preseason (bad QB play notwithstanding) is irritating, because it was entirely predictable.

On draft night, I wanted Xavier Worthy. Why? Because if you've decided that you're going to operate a lot of your offense through the middle of the field with guys like Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, Khalil Shakir, and Cook/Davis, it makes sense to ensure that the defense can't squat on it. It makes sense to put explosive guys on the outside to take the top off the defense and open things up.

 

So the fastest WR in combine history was sitting there, and I had visions of Worthy and Samuel on the outside, and the aforementioned TEs and Shakir eating in the MOF all day long. Or pounding the run game and opening up deep shots to Worthy. Or killing them with crossers if the defense went man-heavy. 

Instead the Bills decided they wanted a big-bodied X receiver (which I thought they could've gotten later in the draft with someone like Javon Baker), and to let the Kansas City chiefs -- Yes, the KANSAS CITY CHIEFS -- get the fastest player in combine history instead. Fast forward to today, and Worthy is making deep touchdown catches in camp and preseason games, and Coleman is still struggling to separate from any cornerbacks of competence.

Of course it's still only preseason, and we need to give Coleman time to develop, and I direly hope I'm wrong about the whole mess and he makes me look like an idiot. At this moment, though, the lack of separation and, ultimately, production by our wide receivers through two preseason games is anything but surprising, and the fact that Worthy looks like an early star (or at the very least a productive starting WR) makes it sting all the more. It's early, yes, but it looks like once again it's going to require expert scheming by the OC and all-world heroism by Josh Allen in order to get production from our offense. Lovely.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

[Gregg]

I know it's only preseason and teams just use a vanilla game plan, but it would be nice to see the Bills offense score a TD this preseason before week 1 gets here.

[Avisan]

5 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

Taron Johnson is just an absurdly good football player.  Dang.

[DCofNC]

14 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

But Beane also drafted Josh which is a big credit to him.

 

Beane definitely has faults.

Overall he's a good Gm, but If you wanna argue that this team doesn't have enough elite talent besides Josh, then that's definitely fair 

This to me is the ENTIRE point.  Beane without Allen is already fired.  Because of Allen, he’s given a lot of grace.   What only a few actually know is, who did he really want in that QB class?  He was lucky it fell the way it did because had Allen gone earlier, in a draft where the Giants REALLY screwed the pooch, he’d be out of a job.  If Allen really was his target all along, great for him, but all we really know is he wanted him over Rosen and Lamar.   He’s failed to draft any elite talent aside from Allen in his entire tenure.  Capable guys? Sure.  Quality players? Yeah.  Elite? Nothing.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Seeing the lack of success for our receivers so far this preseason (bad QB play notwithstanding) is irritating, because it was entirely predictable.

On draft night, I wanted Xavier Worthy. Why? Because if you've decided that you're going to operate a lot of your offense through the middle of the field with guys like Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, Khalil Shakir, and Cook/Davis, it makes sense to ensure that the defense can't squat on it. It makes sense to put explosive guys on the outside to take the top off the defense and open things up.

 

So the fastest WR in combine history was sitting there, and I had visions of Worthy and Samuel on the outside, and the aforementioned TEs and Shakir eating in the MOF all day long. Or pounding the run game and opening up deep shots to Worthy. Or killing them with crossers if the defense went man-heavy. 

Instead the Bills decided they wanted a big-bodied X receiver (which I thought they could've gotten later in the draft with someone like Javon Baker), and to let the Kansas City chiefs -- Yes, the KANSAS CITY CHIEFS -- get the fastest player in combine history instead. Fast forward to today, and Worthy is making deep touchdown catches in camp and preseason games, and Coleman is still struggling to separate from any cornerbacks of competence.

Of course it's still only preseason, and we need to give Coleman time to develop, and I direly hope I'm wrong about the whole mess and he makes me look like an idiot. At this moment, though, the lack of separation and, ultimately, production by our wide receivers through two preseason games is anything but surprising, and the fact that Worthy looks like an early star (or at the very least a productive starting WR) makes it sting all the more. It's early, yes, but it looks like once again it's going to require expert scheming by the OC and all-world heroism by Josh Allen in order to get production from our offense. Lovely.

It’s actually sad because this is the most pressure we have ever put on Josh to carry an offense since 2018. 
 

Which is sad because that’s a sentence that we should have never had to utter. 2019 should have been the bare minimum effort in a receiving group year after year.

Edited August 19 by FireChans

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Seeing the lack of success for our receivers so far this preseason (bad QB play notwithstanding) is irritating, because it was entirely predictable.

On draft night, I wanted Xavier Worthy. Why? Because if you've decided that you're going to operate a lot of your offense through the middle of the field with guys like Dalton Kincaid, Dawson Knox, Khalil Shakir, and Cook/Davis, it makes sense to ensure that the defense can't squat on it. It makes sense to put explosive guys on the outside to take the top off the defense and open things up.

 

So the fastest WR in combine history was sitting there, and I had visions of Worthy and Samuel on the outside, and the aforementioned TEs and Shakir eating in the MOF all day long. Or pounding the run game and opening up deep shots to Worthy. Or killing them with crossers if the defense went man-heavy. 

Instead the Bills decided they wanted a big-bodied X receiver (which I thought they could've gotten later in the draft with someone like Javon Baker), and to let the Kansas City chiefs -- Yes, the KANSAS CITY CHIEFS -- get the fastest player in combine history instead. Fast forward to today, and Worthy is making deep touchdown catches in camp and preseason games, and Coleman is still struggling to separate from any cornerbacks of competence.

Of course it's still only preseason, and we need to give Coleman time to develop, and I direly hope I'm wrong about the whole mess and he makes me look like an idiot. At this moment, though, the lack of separation and, ultimately, production by our wide receivers through two preseason games is anything but surprising, and the fact that Worthy looks like an early star (or at the very least a productive starting WR) makes it sting all the more. It's early, yes, but it looks like once again it's going to require expert scheming by the OC and all-world heroism by Josh Allen in order to get production from our offense. Lovely.

I have to agree with your assessment, as much as I don’t want to.   I hope Coleman turns out to be an animal and does so quickly because early on, it sure looks like we let a young Desean Jackson pass us by.  What’s more concerning is knowing the Bills have already traded the rights to Maholmes and Justin Jefferson, so their evaluation/decision making is ABSOLUTELY fair to question.  
 

To me, this follows the Beane mold of locking on a specific position and drafting it, damned of all the other options.  He wanted an X and he got an X.  He locked in on Kincaid last year, I like Kincaid, but LaPorta is a complete TE that out performed Kincaid at the one dimension he offers, so it can’t be said he’s not a pass catcher.  He clearly locked in on/got obsessed with Ed Oliver, and clearly wasn’t going to let a CB get away when he took Elam.  These are just not good moves and what’s worse is the compounding effect they have.  This pick lead to trading a 3rd rounder to get a CB to play in front of Elam, which then lead to trading Worthy to the Chiefs so he could get the 3rd back.   He got obsessed with pass rushers and forced 2 picks in a row with Groot, who is an average DE and then Boogie who I’m not even sure is still in the league.  All because he’s drafting for needs instead of looking for the best talent available.  Not having a pass rush made him force the Von move, which is screwing the cap, having EO already stopped him from taking the best talent in the Groot draft, etc.  It’s all compounding.  This team has 1 elite player and no cap room and it’s ALL ON BEANE.  It’s a “good” roster, but it’s not good enough to get over the hump.  It doesn’t even have us as the clear favorite in our own division. 

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, Avisan said:

Taron Johnson is just an absurdly good football player.  Dang.

 

He  is an absurdly good football player for who Bills crafted defense to take advantage of his skills.

It does make it harder for defense when he is out but good defense coordinators need to craft defenses to take advantage of special players.

Hopefully his backups can learn from watching him play.

[Dukestreetking]

22 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

We all bow to your brilliance…

May have mentioned before but: OMF you are one salty, clever m'fer.

 

Remind me not to get into a comment battle with you!

 

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, Dukestreetking said:

May have mentioned before but: OMF you are one salty, clever m'fer.

 

Remind me not to get into a comment battle with you!

 

I stand humbled

[Augie]

20 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Beane knew he was going to have cap space in 2025. 

 This was the draft to give up next years #1  and go up and get a star WR. 

I hated the Diggs move but that #2 from Houston via Minnesota plus there own #2 will be good enough to reload at edge and CB next year. 

This was the year to go get your Jefferson type WR. 

I've been consistent. I don't care about consistently winning. Losing at home in the playoffs is just as bad as not making it. They blew their best shot with 13 seconds and wasted Josh's rookie contract. I watched four SuperBowl runs already. Only care about a Championship now.

 

 

 

I heard somewhere today (sorry, I forget the source) that the Pats were offed a couple firsts this year, and a first next year to give up #3. That was THREE first round picks (plus some change in late rounds), and they declined. 

 

The cost of getting up into the top 6 picks or so would have been far more than I’d like to stomach. I don’t want to mortgage the future hoping a single player will pan out. 

[BillsFan130]

4 hours ago, DCofNC said:

This to me is the ENTIRE point.  Beane without Allen is already fired.  Because of Allen, he’s given a lot of grace.   What only a few actually know is, who did he really want in that QB class?  He was lucky it fell the way it did because had Allen gone earlier, in a draft where the Giants REALLY screwed the pooch, he’d be out of a job.  If Allen really was his target all along, great for him, but all we really know is he wanted him over Rosen and Lamar.   He’s failed to draft any elite talent aside from Allen in his entire tenure.  Capable guys? Sure.  Quality players? Yeah.  Elite? Nothing.

I mean, fair points.

 

But any GM or head coach is gonna get fired without the franchise QB. Even bill belichick the greatest coach of all time was. (Who also served as the GM basically)

 

So at the end of the day you have to credit him for getting the most important position correct. There's lots of luck in the draft for every team at some point 

[Doc]

18 hours ago, WideNine said:

They say Coleman has a high football IQ, and that pass had getting lit up in preseason written all over it.

 

*** Listened to Marino today and agree it was a catchable ball the kid alligator-armed. Other than that, it is a lot of spin on the value of preseason and how hard players play for their roster spot. Perhaps those taken early do feel they have a leg up on the roster while those on the bubble will take more chances in preseason and is that wrong?

 

Good question for the coaching staff.

 

I agree that Allen would have tried to put a bit more heat on it, and put it where the kid would not have been so exposed and defenseless.

 

It will be interesting to see how much the offense and receivers magically look better when Allen takes the field again.

 

They do need a legit backup who can at least manage a game, especially with how well we can run the ball. They don't have to be Josh, but they need to be a bit quicker on the trigger.

 

Have to be a few guys in street clothes out there better than what we have.

 

I watched the play several times.  Coleman didn't alligator arm it.  It was actually the opposite.  His arms were stretched about as much as they could be and the ball still ended-up hitting his left palm.  And even if he had somehow managed to snag it with his left hand, the safety was going to destroy him.

[DCofNC]

22 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I mean, fair points.

 

But any GM or head coach is gonna get fired without the franchise QB. Even bill belichick the greatest coach of all time was. (Who also served as the GM basically)

 

So at the end of the day you have to credit him for getting the most important position correct. There's lots of luck in the draft for every team at some point 

Fair as well.   Allen is the saving grace for the entire franchise.  Could you imagine if he had been gone or they had gone for anyone besides Jackson in that draft?  We’d still be routing for anything better than last place.   To that end, I give them credit, they got a generational talent at 7.  

 

Now they need to pair the franchise QB with anybody else that can genuinely make a difference.  When we look at the Chiefs, even if we say Allen and Mahomes are even (they aren’t), you still see them pairing Mahomes with Kelce, Jones, and spending a lot of draft capital on WRs/ weapons in general to help him.   They have found elite talent, while drafting later than the Bills, so even that excuse is out the window.   Until then, they won’t overtake the Chiefs and ultimately, none of these “solid” rosters will make any difference when you are watching the SB from home.

 

[BillsFan130]

Just now, DCofNC said:

Fair as well.   Allen is the saving grace for the entire franchise.  Could you imagine if he had been gone or they had gone for anyone besides Jackson in that draft?  We’d still be routing for anything better than last place.   To that end, I give them credit, they got a generational talent at 7.  

 

Now they need to pair the franchise QB with anybody else that can genuinely make a difference.  When we look at the Chiefs, even if we say Allen and Mahomes are even (they aren’t), you still see them pairing Mahomes with Kelce, Jones, and spending a lot of draft capital on WRs/ weapons in general to help him.   They have found elite talent, while drafting later than the Bills, so even that excuse is out the window.   Until then, they won’t overtake the Chiefs and ultimately, none of these “solid” rosters will make any difference when you are watching the SB from home.

 

Yep I do agree with that. Which is why I'll say Beane is a good, but not great GM.

 

This team needs more elite talent and game breakers outside of Josh

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

Did anyone else know Ray Davis is actually Re’Mahn Davis? 

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I watched the play several times.  Coleman didn't alligator arm it.  It was actually the opposite.  His arms were stretched about as much as they could be and the ball still ended-up hitting his left palm.  And even if he had somehow managed to snag it with his left hand, the safety was going to destroy him.

A lot of different takes on that same play. The one angle I watched I thought the ball was a wounded duck - low, and behind him too. 

I respect Joe's take though and he also mentioned looking at it from a lot of different angles. Then you get to that point where folks can agree to disagree.

It is just one play and there was nothing in his college tape that showed that Coleman was afraid of or avoided contact so I am just looking forward to seeing what kind of chemistry he and Josh can develop as they seemed to have some very good reps in camp.



 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]