Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

You purposely cut out the safety who was their to separate his head from his body if he extends to catch the ball

Reading before responding is always a smart idea.

 

8 minutes ago, folz said:

 

When I watched the play in real time, I also thought that Coleman needs to make that catch. It looked like a pretty good throw, zipped in there. But, I also realized that he would have been lit up by the safety too.

Yeah these are 2 separate discussions (the throw and the drop).

 

If the idea is that he purposefully did not catch the ball because he was afraid of being hit... well... that'll fly in the pre-season but not in real games.

 

.

Edited August 18 by Einstein

[Meatloaf63]

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Reading before responding is always a smart idea.

 

Yeah these are 2 separate discussions (the throw and the drop).

 

If the idea is that he purposefully did not catch the ball because he was afraid of being hit... well... that'll fly in the pre-season but not in real games.

 

.

Nope after you got called out you went and found one that showed the whole play. The fact is it was pre season, the pass sucked, we’ll see if Colman has alligator arms as the season progresses. 

[billsfan89]

Watched about two and a half quarters yesterday, just my amateur observations but I liked what I saw from Anderseen (like most) but I also really liked Dorian Williams I think the Bills are going to be fine without Milano for a bit. I also liked Solomon he flashed a bit I think he's gonna be a slow burn this year mostly taking a limited amount of rotational snaps his rookie year but in year two and beyond I think he is going to be a bigger factor. Groot was obviously a monster, I think he is poised for an Ed Oliver style breakout this upcoming season. 

 

Like most I saw the running backs all play well. Offensive line was a big shaky is pass protection at times but mostly good run blocking. Special teams wise I thought the punting by Martin was great and Hardy really has solidified a roster spot as a returner and flashes as a DB. Bass kicked three chip shots made em all so there's no need to press the panic button for another week which is good. 

 

Overall the defense was mostly good a couple of players here or there didn't have the best game but that's pre-season when you have so many players getting snaps. Offensively the WR's and QB's were bad and the offensive line a bit shaky in pass protection. But the RB's and run blocking were really good. 

 

I think the Bills are rounding into form they looked a lot better and more crisp in this game, smart move not to play Josh in the rain. I do wonder if the Bills will play starters in game 3? I would wager not, I honestly do miss the old 4 game pre-season with a 16 game regular season. There was a better flow and "ramp up" to the games.

[SoCal Deek]

Bills fans got so accustomed to timid LB play watching Edmunds sit back and do next to nothing for years, that all of the current crop are a breath of fresh air for sure! 

[Meatloaf63]

32 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Terrible pass. Could have been caught but still God awful pass. Just hitting the hands is not enough if the ball is wobbling Iike a dead duck.

That said, so far Coleman has done little to assuage our worries that he is not a gamebreaker and not much more than a possession WR. If that is all he ends up really poor job by Beane to upgrade the WR group. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

First year receivers often struggle, having to rely on a significant contribution from Colman this year was a poor risk from Beane in my opinion.

[FLFan]

40 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Terrible pass. Could have been caught but still God awful pass. Just hitting the hands is not enough if the ball is wobbling Iike a dead duck.

That said, so far Coleman has done little to assuage our worries that he is not a gamebreaker and not much more than a possession WR. If that is all he ends up really poor job by Beane to upgrade the WR group. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

You are right - that was a terrible pass. In the wrong place and a knuckleball.  Of course you would still like to see it caught but it was far from a gimme.  As for what we have and do not have, I think it is a bit hard to say and far to early when the starting QB has been on the field in two games for a handful of plays, and they are obviously running nothing deep down the field.  Straight vanilla run oriented offense. Taking any conclusions from either of these games on Coleman or the Offense in general is simply not possible.  It is going to be an interesting ride this year for sure.  

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Nope after you got called out you went and found one that showed the whole play. The fact is it was pre season, the pass sucked, we’ll see if Colman has alligator arms as the season progresses. 

 

Nope. Again, if you read properly, you would know that the image I posted was the full shot. It was direct from the TV broadcast with zero cropping. You are wrong. Feel free to admit it - or don’t - but you are wrong regardless.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Picking the bones out of last week wasn't fun, but I contributed my thoughts in @FireChans thread. There was more positive to go at this week so here goes.....

 

Good Night for...

 

Joe Andreessen - Last week the kid made it for fulfilling a lifelong ambition even if in the game his head appeared to be spinning slightly and it all happened a bit fast for him. But last night, with the Milano situation, Spector injured and Bernard held out, Andreessen got a shot as the starting middle linebacker alongside Dorian Williams and he was impressive. He was diagnosing plays, knifing into the backfield, sticky and fast in coverage and even had an open field tackle on Justin Fields. 12 total tackles, including 2 for loss. I think he might have made the roster last night. Because that performance will have made other teams sit up and notice and the Bills would be taking a risk trying to sneak him onto the practice squad.  

 

Greg Rousseau - I don't usually include proven, guaranteed starters in this thread because they don't really have much to gain or lose in pre-season action but Groot was so good last night that you can't leave him out. 2.5 sacks and 2 tackles for loss in the three defensive series he played. He was a one man wrecking ball and if he could have a breakout season this year similar to the one Ed Oliver had last year we'd all feel better about the Bills pass rush moving forwards.

 

Ray Davis - I wanted to say "all the running backs" in this spot, but it is right to save the biggest bunch of flowers for the rookie Davis who averaged over 7 yards a tote on his 8 carries and ran hard for the Bills. I think he went into camp, at least theoretically, in a battle for the #2 job but Ty Johnson's injury opened the door and Davis has burst through it. It was a good night for all the backs. James Cook looked more decisive behind better run blocking and Darrynton Evans and Frank Gore Jnr who are the likely practice squad backs both had nice nights too. It's a spot where the Bills look to have some depth. 

 

Tylan Grable - I think Grable went into the pre-season games right on the roster bubble but for two weeks in a row I think he has been the most impressive of the Bills backup linemen and last night he switched from right tackle in week one to left tackle. Some of that was likely trying to get a look at Ryan Van Demark at right tackle where 12 months ago he look appreciably worse than on the left side but I don't think it is unreasonable to think another part of the calculation was getting a look at Grable on the blindside. He did not disappoint. He has to make the 53. This kid has not just starter but star potential down the road.

 

Brandon Beane - After including two of his day three picks and one of his UDFAs in the list of good nights I think it is right to give Brandon Beane a bit of a bump based on what we have seen so far. While his days 1 and 2 of the 2024 NFL draft are not yet flashing in the way we might hope man the way he used that glut of day three picks looks pretty good so far. Javon Solomon has been excellent through two pre-season games too, Daequan Hardy showed some juice last night with the ball in his hand and has done some nice things as the second team nickel and Sedrick Van Pran-Granger had another steady outing (albeit mainly by the time the Steeler 3rd team was in). It is true to say the roster was always going to be easier for rookies to make this year given the mini-rebuild, but Davis, Grable, Solomon, Hardy and SVP are all on track to make it.

 

 

Bad Night for...

 

Mitch Trubisky - Ugh. In a disaster class of a night from both sets of Quarterbacks, the concerns about Trubisky show no sign of abating. The interception was terrible - Morris wasn't even open if he hadn't overthrown it - but even worse was the sacks he took holding the ball being slow processing the field. I will look again at the all22 because in his defence I didn't see much separation by receivers (more of which later) but Trubisky is making the offensive line look bad. He is indecisive and tentative and he HAS to get the ball out. I think the Bills will stick with him, but there will be concern in the organisation. In his last spell as the backup here Mitch moved the offense pretty easily in pre-season. He looks like he has come back from Pittsburgh a broken man. 

 

Kingsley Jonathan - I think Jonathan went into camp probably as a guy whose roster spot was not guaranteed but was penciled in. The Bills like him, they have taken time to develop him and he saw snippets of game action last year where he looked serviceable. However, despite decent camp reports his has been awful in the two pre-season games and with the Bills now having a young, developmental, edge guy that they drafted in Solomon looking so impressive I think Kingsley's name is at risk of being rubbed out. He could miss the cut. 

 

O'Cyrus Torrence - There is a certain irony that after all the gnashing of teeth about the left side of the offensive line following Mitch Morse's departure and McGovern's move to center it has been the right side of the starting group (which was much improved in 2023) that has been the source of concerns through two weeks. Last week I thought Spencer Brown in particular struggled but Torrence wasn't great. This week Torrence was just bad. I know he has always been a heavier guy but he looks big and sluggish to me. I wonder if he needs to shed a few pounds still to get in game shape before week 1. Him taking another step on an encouraging rookie year is important for this group I think.

 

The receiver 'battle' - The Bills receiver situation continues to be of concern. There wasn't a ton of separation with the starters out there and then the guys battling for roster spots showed nothing. Marquez Valdes-Scantling leaving on a cart after being bent up on following his one catch might remove another name from this uninspiring competition by default but Tyrell Shavers has faded after a great first week of camp and didn't show much here either, Hamler had one nice bubble screen for a first down but was otherwise invisible... okay the third string Quarterback not knowing the playbook and therefore having to run it almost every down didn't help. But they need to keep turning over every stone. I'd not be surprised if they go back to the Corey Davis idea this week.  

 

The practice squad candidates - Other than running back, as mentioned above, and Andreessen who might now have necessitated a place on the roster finding guys who have flashed enough to say they are worth keeping for the practice squad has been particularly difficult through these first two games. I think Richard Gouraige as a versatile olineman will probably end up spending a second year there and Kendall Williamson had a couple of moments again and looks a viable candidate. But there is just not a ton of guys here who I am worried about sneaking through. Anyone good enough to have that thought about is probably making the 53. 

 

Flame away and add your own....

 

 

Great post.  

 

Andreessen's play stunned me.  I didn't see anything from him last week and then he's suddenly doing everything right.   It is not easy to get me concerned about the LB corps.  They are still some of the easier athlete profiles for an NFL team to find and(last KC loss notwithstanding) they usually get quality play from whoever they run out there.  But I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop on Milano or Bernard getting injured all camp and Spector and Ulofoshio are brittle too.   Then Milano happened.  Having Andreessen and Williams look good was a relief and a renewal of the confidence I always have in back 7 positions with McD.

 

Rousseau - I've been a big believer in Rousseau and I think it's his time.   He still really needs a edge bender opposite him to maximize his skills but I think he's going to have a big year.

 

Davis - We saw why he's so good.   The Bills haven't had a lot of his style of RB over the last 15 years so it was fun to see that more Travis Henry-like low c-of-g style again.   

 

Grable - I'm a fan of the young depth on the OL.  I think Beane will be able to get a late pick or a swap for the 10th or 11th guy.  

 

Beane........I'd say we have to itemize Beane's good night as just wrt his day 3 picks.   Those look really good.   Obviously the day 1-2 picks haven't as yet and guys like Trubisky and MVS look like terrible signings.   And on day 3 I'm still perplexed about why they didn't want Austin Booker and instead traded that pick to the Bears for a 4th next year.   That felt like a gift of the particular kind Beane most loves(pass rusher) when he fell there.   Solomon has looked like a very good developmental prospect and offers great special teams versatility with his compact frame and long arms as well......and I liked that pick in isolation........but Booker really checks all the boxes for the McDefense physically.  

 

Mitch Trubisky - I absolutely hated that signing.  I think I argued with you a bit in the offseason about just HOW bad he is.   His confidence is SHOT.  He might kick around the NFL long enough to get it back sometime in his 30's but even this gig is too big for him right now.

 

Jonathan - His lack of progress/consistency has been a disappointment.  

 

Torrence - For what it's worth, I heard he was very good in the practice setting against Pittsburgh.   Seems like a lot of nitpicking of the OL from observers this preseason.......I feel good about the OL in general.  It was time for Mitch Morse to go, IMO.  Especially if they want to be more physical.  What I don't feel good about is that they are going to be basically playing against loaded boxes all season if they don't find a solution to their lack of a threat to stretch the field.

 

WR battle - it's gone exactly to any reasonable person's expectation.   No answers whatsoever on the boundary.  

 

Practice squad - yeah like we discussed last week.........they don't have 53 gotta'-keep NFL players.   They are probably going to keep a bunch of guys they would have tried to slip thru to the PS any other training camp over the last 5 years and just shrugged if they couldn't.  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18 by BADOLBILZ

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The receiver 'battle' - The Bills receiver situation continues to be of concern. There wasn't a ton of separation with the starters out there and then the guys battling for roster spots showed nothing.

I agree with almost all your points, including the deeper WR spots competing behind Hollins.  But I am not quite sure how anyone can say there wasn’t a ton of separation by the starters when they were coming open all game and Mitch either didn’t even look their way, held the ball forever, threw instead to someone not open, threw a late pass, or just flat out threw a bad pass.

 

I can name many examples, but here are a few that includes what should have been a first down…should have been a TD…should have been a big competition instead or an INT.

 

On a completion to Hollins, Coleman gets wide open for an easy catch with RAC potential for a first down right in front of Mitch.  Instead Mitch held the ball an eternity before finally throwing a late pass to Hollins who also had been open a while before getting him the ball late.  Hollins makes the catch short of the first down with no chance to advance the ball.

 

On the should be TD pass to Coleman…replay shows Coleman fully extended but the pass was wobbly and just out of reach of his finger tips.  Coleman ran an excellent route that is a TD with Allen at QB that was wasted by Mitch…again just like last week.  
 

On the interception, Hollins ran a great route and beat his man for a perfect window for a strike and big YAC yardage with a well placed ball, and literally right in front of Mitch.  Yet Mitch holds the ball too long and then throws an atrocious ball again to Morris (who feels like Morris paid Mitch to keep throwing him the ball as he made several bad choices over guys wide open elsewhere) that is so bad it’s a gift interception.  
 

I watched Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, Knox etc win on routes with separation for should be passes to them and Mitch either didn’t even look at them or did something else totally stupid.

 

Im not saying that yesterday answered any questions, especially with such poor QB play, but there were a lot of positives from them (wasted and ruined by poor QB play) and nothing about yesterdays game confirms or raises concerns.  
 

I do very much agree that the WR spots behind those first 4 guys is a concern right now.  MVS already sucks, and now may be lost to injury and Shavers hasn’t shined yet like we have heard about from practices.  Hamler isn’t doing enough to win a job either IMHO.  
 

IMHO, I think they may be looking to add a WR this week to come in and compete as a speed guy in the 5th spot.  I am not sure who is out there, but I wouldn’t at all be surprised if we see a move this week of some sort.   
 

 

[SoCal Deek]

I have literally no idea why we’re talking about WRs when Josh didn’t play, Mitch was clueless, and DiNucci hadn’t read the playbook. There’s less than ZERO point evaluating wideouts based on last night. What I liked from the group had nothing to do with play but instead from the tape measure…..geez the new guys are tall! 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

everything about the throw was bad.

 

it was high and it was away.  The two critical points of throwing a slant, never be high and never lead your wr into danger.

 

That throw was a classic medicine ball.  It should have been right on him between the numbers where he can get his hands on it and protect himself or down low where only he can catch it.

 

You never throw a slant high, and you 100% do not throw it where the WR has to completely extend his arms and put him in danger.

 

I am going to keep repeating this today, Bill Walsh's rule, SIX INCHES in front of the numbers.

 

It wasn't a good throw. But it is not like it was impossible to make a play on. I will give Keon the benefit that he didn't think worth taking the hit you'd take to catch it in a pre-season game. But regular season I want him to make a much better effort on that ball.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

57 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

First year receivers often struggle, having to rely on a significant contribution from Colman this year was a poor risk from Beane in my opinion.

Agree. 

But don't fret we have a safety from Utah that will make all the difference 

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I agree with almost all your points, including the deeper WR spots competing behind Hollins.  But I am not quite sure how anyone can say there wasn’t a ton of separation by the starters when they were coming open all game and Mitch either didn’t even look their way, held the ball forever, threw instead to someone not open, threw a late pass, or just flat out threw a bad pass.

 

I can name many examples, but here are a few that includes what should have been a first down…should have been a TD…should have been a big competition instead or an INT.

 

On a completion to Hollins, Coleman gets wide open for an easy catch with RAC potential for a first down right in front of Mitch.  Instead Mitch held the ball an eternity before finally throwing a late pass to Hollins who also had been open a while before getting him the ball late.  Hollins makes the catch short of the first down with no chance to advance the ball.

 

On the should be TD pass to Coleman…replay shows Coleman fully extended but the pass was wobbly and just out of reach of his finger tips.  Coleman ran an excellent route that is a TD with Allen at QB that was wasted by Mitch…again just like last week.  
 

On the interception, Hollins ran a great route and beat his man for a perfect window for a strike and big YAC yardage with a well placed ball, and literally right in front of Mitch.  Yet Mitch holds the ball too long and then throws an atrocious ball again to Morris (who feels like Morris paid Mitch to keep throwing him the ball as he made several bad choices over guys wide open elsewhere) that is so bad it’s a gift interception.  
 

I watched Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, Knox etc win on routes with separation for should be passes to them and Mitch either didn’t even look at them or did something else totally stupid.

 

Im not saying that yesterday answered any questions, especially with such poor QB play, but there were a lot of positives from them (wasted and ruined by poor QB play) and nothing about yesterdays game confirms or raises concerns.  
 

I do very much agree that the WR spots behind those first 4 guys is a concern right now.  MVS already sucks, and now may be lost to injury and Shavers hasn’t shined yet like we have heard about from practices.  Hamler isn’t doing enough to win a job either IMHO.  
 

IMHO, I think they may be looking to add a WR this week to come in and compete as a speed guy in the 5th spot.  I am not sure who is out there, but I wouldn’t at all be surprised if we see a move this week of some sort.   
 

 

 

I haven't been back and looked yet so I may well be wrong on the lack of separation point. Can only tell so much from tv but every replay angle we saw our guys looked blanketed. It is a concern.

47 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Mitch Trubisky - I absolutely hated that signing.  I think I argued with you a bit in the offseason about just HOW bad he is.   His confidence is SHOT.  He might kick around the NFL long enough to get it back sometime in his 30's but even this gig is too big for him right now.

 

 

 

We did argue about Mitch in the spring. I take an L on this one. I think when he was here before he looked like a very functional game manager in the preseason. Okay different OC, some different skill guys (but not like all his play was with the 1s then either). He looks decidedly worse. I think his head is shot. One of the things I liked before was he could get out of trouble with his legs too and whenever he tried to move last night he ran into his own guys. It was dreadful. 

Edited August 18 by GunnerBill

[Ethan in Cleveland]

46 minutes ago, FLFan said:

You are right - that was a terrible pass. In the wrong place and a knuckleball.  Of course you would still like to see it caught but it was far from a gimme.  As for what we have and do not have, I think it is a bit hard to say and far to early when the starting QB has been on the field in two games for a handful of plays, and they are obviously running nothing deep down the field.  Straight vanilla run oriented offense. Taking any conclusions from either of these games on Coleman or the Offense in general is simply not possible.  It is going to be an interesting ride this year for sure.  

I agree but it's not like he has been lighting up camp either. 

I'm not dismissing him at all. Obviously we have to wait and see. I thought Bernard was going to be a bust. 

I don't subscribe to the idea you need a dominant WR to win. I think they can be a great offense spreading the ball around and running the ball. 

In a way not having a guy that can get deep and having an effective rush game may make other teams play more single high safeties.  If that is the case Allen will eat that up with intermediate to deep passes to Kimcaid, Knox, and Shakir all day.

[Coach Tuesday]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I haven't been back and looked yet so I may well be wrong on the lack of separation point. Can only tell so much from tv but every replay angle we saw our guys looked blanketed. It is a concern.

 

We did argue about Mitch in the spring. I take an L on this one. I think when he was here before he looked like a very functional game manager in the preseason. Okay different OC, some different skill guys (but not like all his play was with the 1s then either). He looks decidedly worse. I think his head is shot. One of the things I liked before was he could get out of trouble with his legs too and whenever he tried to move last night he ran into his own guys. It was dreadful. 

Last night he was just locking onto his practice mate Q Morris regardless of what the defense was doing and regardless of whether Q was open.  He was predetermining his throw before the play happened - like Nathan Peterman used to do.  That tells me he no longer trusts his own ability to process the action in real time which means he is toast.  They also need to take the “L” there and need to make a move there ASAP.

[86poker]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

I didn't crop anything. That's the TV footage (they cropped it).

Here is another angle though. The defender 5 yards away has nothing to do with Coleman dropping or not dropping the pass. When you're an NFL WR, you have to catch that. Period, point blank. It has to be a catch.

Heck, as an NFL WR you have to catch that even if the defender is 1 yard away. 


 

 

 

 

Keon Coleman should 100% catch this horribly thrown ball.  

 

But to act like this distance your showing in this pic is major when you know that it would be closed in a split second by the defender, to act as if Keon wouldn't take a huge hit here is insane

[Nephilim17]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Tylan Grable - I think Grable went into the pre-season games right on the roster bubble but for two weeks in a row I think he has been the most impressive of the Bills backup linemen and last night he switched from right tackle in week one to left tackle. Some of that was likely trying to get a look at Ryan Van Demark at right tackle where 12 months ago he look appreciably worse than on the left side but I don't think it is unreasonable to think another part of the calculation was getting a look at Grable on the blindside. He did not disappoint. He has to make the 53. This kid has not just starter but star potential down the road.

 

Excellent to hear.

How does a tackle with great measurements and star potential slip to the sixth? 

One scouting report said turning 25 as a rookie and unrefined technique. I don't care if it takes the kids a year or two to learn technique. If this is another Jason Peters I would love it —tackles can play at a high level well into their 30s.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

I appreciate you proving my point, you have no idea what average means. 

33% of players picked 21-30 make a ProBowl once.
 

Beane is 0fer. 

Thanks for playing.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Excellent to hear.

How does a tackle with great measurements and star potential slip to the sixth? 

One scouting report said turning 25 as a rookie and unrefined technique. I don't care if it takes the kids a year or two to learn technique. If this is another Jason Peters I would love it —tackles can play at a high level well into their 30s.

 

He has only been a tackle a couple of years. He was a Quarterback in High School, turned bad college tight end. It was only when he turned to left tackle it suddenly clicked for him. He has the size, power, foot speed, hip bend and agility you look for. His technique is inconsistent but man if they can straighten it out he is a sky's the limit type. 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

SHOULD.   They only have 3 WR's of any consequence.   Hollins is just a special teamer.   Nobody would have been surprised if MVS was nothing more than a practice squad player this year given how his career turned for the worse last season.   They are at the point where they are looking for retired players to come back to the NFL.  Wow.   I fully expect Will Fuller to be in for a tryout next. 😂

What kind of shape is Andre Reed in?