Berg Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 And yet most of us still believe the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Many say no the earth revolves around(sic) the sun which is fixed. Still others look at the stars on a clear night and say "Oh my God" 362142[/snapback] Historic euphemisms and cliches do not a belief system prove. And Idiots do live.
Lemur King Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 That's the perennial understand of the word religion and the philology of the word bears this defintion from it's use in Greek and Roman culture. So Marx was religious by your definition. Do you and Beausox study at the same university? Yup, that's what I'm saying, and it's a fact. [ people who gave us the foundation of western society (hospitals, universities, experimental sciences, etc.)... are all Catholic] 362024[/snapback] That's an interesting premise. So- you trace things like the Constitution, written almost exclusively by non-Catholics, to Catholics? And certain other things like the rise of Democracy- also to Catholics? And the Catholic Church can have credit for the books it's printed, but from that total must be taken a debit for the books it's burned.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Universities are solely a Catholic invention in western civilization, and the only mention of them in antiquity were some schools in Athens and Alexandria which did not survive with the fall of Greece, and they were built only for aristocracy. Actually, they weren't. There were a number of universities built in Easter Europe by the Byzantines, not to mention universities built by mercantile families in Venice, Milan and Florence.
beausox Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 362264[/snapback] Starting to lose your mo-jo, guys? The derision you emit lacks luster lately. You may even have to make a cogent argument soon.
Ghost of BiB Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Going back to Rockpiles original intent...does any other organized religion have a financial make-up like the Catholic Church does? They are set up more like a government in that regard. And, thanks to a few billion in law suits, local parishes probably aren't receiving the kind of support they once did. As for how they go about getting it, that, to me is more a presonality issue with the solicitor rather than an institutional mentality. I've seen all kinds. Some agressive, some passive about it all. Please continue the hissy fits now.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 You may even have to make a cogent argument soon. 362290[/snapback] You wouldn't know one if it walked up and bit you in the ass, anyway.
Reuben Gant Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Actually, they weren't. There were a number of universities built in Easter Europe by the Byzantines, not to mention universities built by mercantile families in Venice, Milan and Florence. 362284[/snapback] I think you may be wrong here. The Schools of the east were not Universities. The Universities in the west primarily developed as outgrowths of the Cathedral Schools. Bologna Paris Oxford Cambridge were Catholic, and tolerated a wide degree of dissent. Western Universities, and the licensing system: Bachelor's, Masters, Doctors all began as clerical licences. (of course there were schools elsewhere, but not Universities)
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Thanks, Rich. I forgot I had an original point. I think that announcements should be made during that part of the service called "announcements", but that's just my opinion. If the homily is the priest's time to "speak openly, out of The Book", it is certainly not the time to ask people to open their wallets. Jesus had a real problem with doing that in his Father's house if I recall. Thanks for your input. 362193[/snapback] When they take the collection is just another glaring example of the Catholic church's reliance on guilt and shame. Why not just have an anonymous box for depositing their "donations"? Why, because then the entire congregation wouldn't get to see who donated and who didn't. It's only purpose is to shame people into opening their wallets and dumping cash into a basket on a stick.
beausox Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 So Marx was religious by your definition. Do you and Beausox study at the same university?That's an interesting premise. So- you trace things like the Constitution, written almost exclusively by non-Catholics, to Catholics? And certain other things like the rise of Democracy- also to Catholics? And the Catholic Church can have credit for the books it's printed, but from that total must be taken a debit for the books it's burned. 362280[/snapback] Success is at hand. The overmatched enemy has retreated to the cover of anonymity. I attended a College not a university which is a major reason why I was well taught. The "Constitution" is a culmination of the wisdom of the ages- Pagan ( Plato, Aristotle, Cicero et al) Christian ( Catholic:Nicolas of Cusa, More, John of Salisbury) ;and Protestant (Locke, Hobbes); and Humanists ( Rousseau, Voltaire). There would have been no Protestants and no Humanists without the good and bad works of Catholicism and no Constitution. Ecrasez i'infame?
beausox Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Actually, they weren't. There were a number of universities built in Easter Europe by the Byzantines, not to mention universities built by mercantile families in Venice, Milan and Florence. 362284[/snapback] Actually in Europe universities arose from Cathedral schools and/ or Monastic sites without which much ancient writings would not have survived. See "How the Irish Saved Civilization". There is plenty of misdeeds attributable to the RCC but that should not extend to those things the RCC did well. Unless of course you are simply and completely anti-Catholic.
KRC Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 There is plenty of misdeeds attributable to the RCC but that should not extend to those things the RCC did well. Unless of course you are simply and completely anti-Catholic. 362313[/snapback] Why shouldn't you consider the organization as a whole? There are good and bad things. I do not see why you should separate them.
OnTheRocks Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I went to church this morning. My wife is Catholic and finds the most peace with that church, and I was there mainly to support her, since this was the first Father's Day without her Dad. I was reminded today why I do not generally participate in organized religion. Today is Father's Day, right? Don't you think that maybe the homily (sermon) might be thematic? I mean, MY thoughts were with my father, father-in-law, and grandfather who have all died. I also thought of my children and grandchildren and was meditating on how I could be a better man for them! No, they had a guest speaker whose entire message concerned fund raising for a Catholic AM radio station they were starting up. So today's message was a 15 minute Infommercial. Another time I was there on Easter Sunday (a different parish, by the way) and on EASTER SUNDAY the first words out of the priest's mouth were an announcement that there would only be one offering collection that day, so if you had two envelopes, don't wait for a second basket. Funny, but I thought "Happy Easter" would have been more appropriate as the opening greeting. I would be interested in knowing how others feel about this kind of thing. Is it just me? 361922[/snapback] I am not Catholic but am a "Born Again Christian". I am sorry you feel that way about Organized religion. My typical response to that is when someone says they had a bad experience for one reason or another, visiting churches and trying different denominations should maybe be like falling in love. Just because one breaks your heart and/or dissappoints you, doesn't mean the next one will. After the first girlfriend broke your heart, did you decide you would never go out with another girl again? Just because one church isn't what you think it should be for whatever reason, it shouldn't leave you so jilted that you never go again or generalize that they are all the same. (Rock - for the record i know you did not say they were all the same). In regard to your experience...i don't know what to tell you. In our church the guy that does the announcements and greets people ususally says, "if you are visiting please know that our church is fully supported by the tithes and offerings of our memebers so please do not feel any obligation to give anything. (I know that is what he says, because i am the guy that says it.) As far as the message, yesterday my Pastor preached a message on the love of the prodigal son's father. Good stuff.
RkFast Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 When they take the collection is just another glaring example of the Catholic church's reliance on guilt and shame. Why not just have an anonymous box for depositing their "donations"? Why, because then the entire congregation wouldn't get to see who donated and who didn't. It's only purpose is to shame people into opening their wallets and dumping cash into a basket on a stick. 362301[/snapback] Ive been in Church thousands of times in my life. In a few different countries now, too. Whether the request came by a passed plate or "basket on a stick", its always the same. Sometimes Ive dropped bills. Sometimes change. A lot of times NOTHING. Ive never seen anything but a smile from the usher and NEVER has a dirty look come my way when I kept my head up and gave nothing. And contrary to your point, I find the "offering" part of the Mass, when the gifts are brought to the altar one of the most PRIVATE parts of the mass, when the Parishoners go out of their way NOT to "look around" to see who was donating and who was not. But feel free to remain "outraged". I mean, DAMN that terrible Catholic Church for asking for money to do all those terrible guilty things. You know....like pay the electric bill and clothe the poor of the Parish And OnTheRock's point is RIGHT ON. Every Parish does things a bit differently. If you find one congregation not too your liking for whatever reason, then go to another that suits you better. That goes across ALL RELIGIONS. But, as usual, the scorn is saved for the Catholics.
Rubes Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Going back to Rockpiles original intent...does any other organized religion have a financial make-up like the Catholic Church does? They are set up more like a government in that regard. 362291[/snapback] Come check out the Mormons. You'll be impressed.
Reuben Gant Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Andrew Greely is a Roman Catholic priest and has a decent article which shows why many Catholics are not involved in the Intelligent design debate: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0211-25.htm
VABills Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Going back to Rockpiles original intent...does any other organized religion have a financial make-up like the Catholic Church does? They are set up more like a government in that regard. And, thanks to a few billion in law suits, local parishes probably aren't receiving the kind of support they once did. As for how they go about getting it, that, to me is more a presonality issue with the solicitor rather than an institutional mentality. I've seen all kinds. Some agressive, some passive about it all. Please continue the hissy fits now. 362291[/snapback] Wrong but try again. Unlike the government, the "taxation" is done on a local level through donations. The dioceses and up then "tax" the local parishes to garner their money. Obviously this is needed to support the bishops and the Pope. Unlike some religions that force you to tithe, and a lot are very forceful in that you are required to tithe 10% and they check your wages out to confirm. I have many Jewish friends and they are required to pay a set donation every year to join the synagogue. The Catholic Church is different in that they do not force anyone to donate, or tithe. It is up to you and on your honor. There is a lot of administrative overhead and they do need to make appeals to help fund these things. The Catholic Church and charities are second only to the US government (and they might be first) in providing services. money, etc... to the needy. While most churches do this none do it on a scale that the Catholic Church does. And yes the Church does have a some bad priests, nuns and parishiners who do things in the name of the Church. But just like any other organization there are always going to be bad apples. The Church has taken a lot of flak and rightfully so for attempting to forgive and absolve some who have done aggregious things. But this is what Christianity is all about.
Bill from NYC Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Wrong but try again. Unlike the government, the "taxation" is done on a local level through donations. The dioceses and up then "tax" the local parishes to garner their money. Obviously this is needed to support the bishops and the Pope. Unlike some religions that force you to tithe, and a lot are very forceful in that you are required to tithe 10% and they check your wages out to confirm. I have many Jewish friends and they are required to pay a set donation every year to join the synagogue. The Catholic Church is different in that they do not force anyone to donate, or tithe. It is up to you and on your honor. There is a lot of administrative overhead and they do need to make appeals to help fund these things. The Catholic Church and charities are second only to the US government (and they might be first) in providing services. money, etc... to the needy. While most churches do this none do it on a scale that the Catholic Church does. And yes the Church does have a some bad priests, nuns and parishiners who do things in the name of the Church. But just like any other organization there are always going to be bad apples. The Church has taken a lot of flak and rightfully so for attempting to forgive and absolve some who have done aggregious things. But this is what Christianity is all about. 362354[/snapback] I was with you 100% until the last sentence VA.
VABills Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I was with you 100% until the last sentence VA. 362358[/snapback] Christianity isn't about living like Jesus and forgiving? Since when. I didn't get that memo.
Bill from NYC Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Christianity isn't about living like Jesus and forgiving? Since when. I didn't get that memo. 362359[/snapback] I don't want to turn this thread into me bashing Catholics. I am NOT. I happen to believe that it is more "Christian" to punish a child molestor than to transfer him to another parish and unleash him on other innocent children.
VABills Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I don't want to turn this thread into me bashing Catholics. I am NOT. I happen to believe that it is more "Christian" to punish a pedophile than to transfer him to another parish and unleash him on other innocent children. 362365[/snapback] And if you read what I said, The Church has taken a lot of flak and rightfully so for attempting to forgive and absolve some who have done aggregious things. But this is what Christianity is all about. and what I bolded, I agree. But sometimes they have errored on the side of too much forgiveness.
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