The Catholic Church

[SilverNRed]

This thread rocks.

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It's entertaining, that's for sure.

 

My guess is we're on track for about 10 pages of AD and the new guy going back and forth.

[michaelimagnus]

I really don't want to get in a sarcastic battle with anyone. I'm just annoyed that I as a Catholic can be called a lemming for following organized religion, and yet if you are a secular humanist who follows Science Daily as a dogmatic institution you have more faith than I do in Jesus Christ. You have to believe time makes life (creationism is evil, and non-sensical although life can come from non-life, and greater beings can from lesser beings without thought or rational), all theories are facts, and the thought that God could reveal supernatural truth for our good is only for the blind and unreasonable.

 

I go to Mass and Church for God's honor and glory. Some do it out of habit, others out of respect for their family; others go for the glory of God, the good of their soul and the souls of others.

 

I go because I believe that Jesus Christ was God made man who died for our sins and hence I, a creature, must love Him back and do what I can to love others and most importantly God. I believe that truth unifies and error divides and hence God made one Church for salvation. I recognize not everyone is not part of this Church but if someone ernestly desires the truth God will help lead that person to salvation from where they are. I am fully cognizant that people may be greedy, immoral, and not true to their faith. Can I blame the faith? Not anymore than I can blame this country for its corruption and I make this logical division from the people from those who make mistakes.

 

If anyone wants to know why people should go to Church it's simple: God wants honor since He is the Creator and we as His creation owe honor to our Creator for our well-being. God wants us to partake in His intimate life of the sacraments given for our good and perfection.

[Berg]

Dude,

 

definition of theory is not equvalent to a fact. The recent imposition of the scientific community to impose theory as fact is constantly attempted. This attempt to persuade anyone that if you make enough excuses why something is almost a fact it must a fact is pseudo-intellectual activity. So much for science being impartial when imposing itself.

 

Facts are unmistakeable principles. The fact that heliocentrism is still theory means it's not a fact, and no amount of excuses under the guise of nuance or parlance is sufficient to make a theory a fact.

 

I'm a heliocentrist, but I would like to remind you that there are a group of scientists that are becoming geocentrists based on several different angles that show conclusively that it is only a theory.

 

In the book The Biggest Bangs: The Mystery of Gamma-Ray Bursts, Jonathan I. Katz, professor of physics at Washington University, states in his chapter titled, The Copernican Dilemma:

 

   

 

In 1975, astrophysicist J. P Varshni stunned astronomers with his evidence that earth was in the center of the universe. Varshni writes:

 

   

 

Astronomist Fred Holye, a heliocentrist had this to say:

 

 

 

See? No proof, just theory, although highly probable. I know a guy who will give you $1,000 if you can prove that heliocentrism is a fact. I don't agree with his geocentrist position at all, but he puts his money where his mouth is. Maybe you should go for his $1,000 challenge and show him it's just parlance.

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When applied to today's understanding of the makeup of the universe, heliocentrism vs. geocentrism must refer to our solar system only. Outside of that closed system, too many other celestial bodies would have to be considered as well. And I suspect your ''guy" has no pseudo-intellectually honest intention of accepting anything as proof. The rest of your quotes are nonsequitur to your point.

 

Also, please do a little research on the history of astronomy. Most of Gallileo's contributions to astronomy were built on Copernican theory (which he helped validate), and in conjunction with others such as Newton, Keppler and Brahe, formed the basis for what we still use as the mathmatical models for basic planetary motion. Gallileo's main contributions came from direct observations of planetary bodies using the telescope, rather than the tidal phenomena you mention. And of course he was threatened by the church with torture if he did not recant, and spent the last number of years of his life under house arrest because of his beliefs that contradicted the church's.

 

One can quibble indefinitely about scientific fact vs. theory, but it becomes an exercise in futility with someone who's standard for accepting the validity of a theory traverses past reasonable and logical disagreement into a steadfast refusal to recognize an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.

[Mark VI]

When applied to today's understanding of the makeup of the universe, heliocentrism vs. geocentrism must refer to our solar system only.  Outside of that closed system, too many other celestial bodies would have to be considered as well.  And I suspect your ''guy" has no pseudo-intellectually honest intention of accepting anything as proof.  The rest of your quotes are nonsequitur to your point.

 

Also, please do a little research on the history of astronomy.  Most of Gallileo's contributions to astronomy were built on Copernican theory (which he helped validate), and in conjunction with others such as Newton, Keppler and Brahe, formed the basis for what we still use as the mathmatical models for basic planetary motion.  Gallileo's main contributions came from direct observations of planetary bodies using the telescope, rather than the tidal phenomena you mention.  And of course he was threatened by the church with torture if he did not recant, and spent the last number of years of his life under house arrest because of his beliefs that contradicted the church's.

 

One can quibble indefinitely about scientific fact vs. theory, but it becomes an exercise in futility with someone who's standard for accepting the validity of a theory traverses past reasonable and logical disagreement into a steadfast refusal to recognize an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.

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Time to read "Inherit the Wind" again and revisit the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925. One of my favorite books of youth.

[beausox]

When applied to today's understanding of the makeup of the universe, heliocentrism vs. geocentrism must refer to our solar system only.  Outside of that closed system, too many other celestial bodies would have to be considered as well.  And I suspect your ''guy" has no pseudo-intellectually honest intention of accepting anything as proof.  The rest of your quotes are nonsequitur to your point.

 

Also, please do a little research on the history of astronomy.  Most of Gallileo's contributions to astronomy were built on Copernican theory (which he helped validate), and in conjunction with others such as Newton, Keppler and Brahe, formed the basis for what we still use as the mathmatical models for basic planetary motion.  Gallileo's main contributions came from direct observations of planetary bodies using the telescope, rather than the tidal phenomena you mention.  And of course he was threatened by the church with torture if he did not recant, and spent the last number of years of his life under house arrest because of his beliefs that contradicted the church's.

 

One can quibble indefinitely about scientific fact vs. theory, but it becomes an exercise in futility with someone who's standard for accepting the validity of a theory traverses past reasonable and logical disagreement into a steadfast refusal to recognize an overwhelming preponderance of evidence.

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And yet most of us still believe the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Many say no the earth revolves around(sic) the sun which is fixed. Still others look at the stars on a clear night and say "Oh my God"

[rockpile]

The Roman Catholic Religion is often very different than the human beings, priests and elders of the church, who manage it on a local parish or diocese level.  It is unfortunate what some humans do while they "represent" the religion.  But, please don't condemn an entire religion due to human frailties.

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The same is true of all religons, not just Catholics, not just Christianity. I understand that churches are comprised of people and led by people.

 

My original question, and I admit I may not have expressed myself very well, was how others felt about Catholic churches substituting the greeting of parishioners with a note about money collection, or turning 25% of the service into an infommercial.

 

With the exception of some TV preachers, it has been my experience that Catholic churches are most apt to do this, of the dozens of Christian denominations whose services I have attended personally.

 

Gee, should we change the name of the forum to "Politics, Polls, and Pissing Contests"?

[ExiledInIllinois]

What are you guys gonna do if the earth's mag field flip-flops and all your mag compesses go wrong?

 

Damn, it sure is hot out today. They are calling for temps to be in the mid 90's later in the week... With the summer solstice approaching, we must be closer to the sun? It sure is hot!

[bobblehead]

I've read this board for 5 years now and I've never made a post.

 

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Sorry, but he lost me when he said this. What's this about, again?

[ExiledInIllinois]

It is the inherent nature of the beast. That is why they say never talk about politics and religion?

 

Gotta love it!

 

[rockpile]

Your God is a lot smaller than mine. Those are vain human traits.

If anyone wants to know why people should go to Church it's simple: God wants honor since He is the Creator and we as His creation owe honor to our Creator for our well-being.

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[rockpile]

Thanks, Rich. I forgot I had an original point.

 

I think that announcements should be made during that part of the service called "announcements", but that's just my opinion. If the homily is the priest's time to "speak openly, out of The Book", it is certainly not the time to ask people to open their wallets. Jesus had a real problem with doing that in his Father's house if I recall. Thanks for your input.

 

If I may go back to Toms original point.....

 

Tom...I think youre off base here a bit. What you picked up on, especially with the collections was the Parish taking care of its business. Every Mass there is an offering, sometimes two for this or that, and the Priest or Deacon or whomever made the announcement was just making sure the Parishoners knew what was going on. WHEN those annoncements are made really doesnt matter. Dont look too much into that.

 

The homily? Thats always the Priest's time to speak openly, out of The Book. If he wanted to devote it to a fund drive or something else, he was totally within bounds to do so. A little wierd, I admit. Actually, quite strange on a day like today. But again, nothing way, way out of line.

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[Alaska Darin]

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I guess intellectual acuity in Alaska is running thin these days.

I know YOU weren't. I was. Tell me again about the acuity thing and explain to me how geography somehow plays a part in it while you're at it.

 

For someone who calls me confused over nothing, and then pokes around with insults hoping to get some kind of diatribe from me you're wasting your time.  Who knows you might do some self-realization that anyone who spends their life posting 18,000 times + might not have a life to begin with. 

Versus a guy who has supposedly read this board for 5+ years without making a post. Yeah, you're a way better man than me. Love the typical Catholic superiority judgement. Some things never evolve.

 

If you think you are half the intellect you think you are I recommend spending more time reading something useful for a change than reading your own sarcasm.

Nice sentence. I suppose I could pickup the New Testament yet again so I could join in with the rest of you. Then I could give even more of my money to yet ANOTHER faceless entity to waste on $150 Million dollar plus edifaces like the abortion in Los Angeles while the poor wallow just around the block. Yeah, I know. They do so very much good in the world - especially the whole systematic raping of young boys thing. And they're WAY different than Muslims (especially in that "already having their own country" kind of way).

 

I know what the word means quite well thanks for asking.

Sure you do.

 

I've never seen anyone put down others views without putting your own on paper for others to critique clearly and definitively. Look how you played the political season of critiques. You fit a mold of finding chinks (at least in your own mind) in others' armor while not exposing yourself for criticism with what you really stand for. You critique positions more than you stand for things. If you want an example look in this thread. Self-realization might be more than you bargained for.

RCow, that you? That argument is as tired as it is stupid. You choose to overlook the faults of a huge political organization based around free money, control, and the fools who continue to follow them in hopes of missing out on the eternal dirt nap. I don't, so apparently that's "nebulous" and "not taking a stand." Sorry, mate. I ain't a joiner. If there is a God, I'm gonna take a chance on not needing the stamp of the Catholic church on my passport to meet him.

 

Or so you believe standing aloft so many posts of one-liners. Look in the mirror, or maybe you haven't moved from it yet.

I tolerate the person, not the stupidity, which apparently is your specialty.

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Looky there, another fine example of the "Judge not lest ye be judged." So very Catholic of you. Make sure you say a couple of "Hail Mary's" and admit your condescension the next time you're in Confession.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Looky there, another fine example of the "Judge not lest ye be judged."  So very Catholic of you.  Make sure you say a couple of "Hail Mary's" and admit your condescension the next time you're in Confession.

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Michael, Beaxsox, and I pray for you. I'm sure you don't accept that, but we do.

 

*That*, my ice cold friend, is what sets us apart.

 

And Catholicism doesn't rule out judging people: that admonishment you quote is more in the vein that you shouldn't judge others until you have fully judged yourself. Judging people is important. I need to decide who is evil, and who is not, lest my children fall in league with bad influences. Judging is a natural part of life. So please, don't take that out of context, brother.

[beausox]

I know YOU weren't.  I was.  Tell me again about the acuity thing and explain to me how geography somehow plays a part in it while you're at it.

Versus a guy who has supposedly read this board for 5+ years without making a post.  Yeah, you're a way better man than me.  Love the typical Catholic superiority judgement.  Some things never evolve.

Nice sentence.  I suppose I could pickup the New Testament yet again so I could join in with the rest of you.  Then I could give even more of my money to yet ANOTHER faceless entity to waste on $150 Million dollar plus edifaces like the abortion in Los Angeles while the poor wallow just around the block.  Yeah, I know.  They do so very much good in the world - especially the whole systematic raping of young boys thing.  And they're WAY different than Muslims (especially in that "already having their own country" kind of way).

Sure you do. 

RCow, that you?  That argument is as tired as it is stupid.  You choose to overlook the faults of a huge political organization based around free money and control and the fools who continue to follow them in hopes of missing out on the eternal dirt nap.  I don't, so apparently that's "nebulous" and "not taking a stand."  Sorry, mate.  I ain't a joiner.  If their is a God, I'm gonna take a chance on not needing the stamp of the Catholic church on my passport to meet him.

Looky there, another fine example of the "Judge not lest ye be judged."  So very Catholic of you.  Make sure you say a couple of "Hail Mary's" and admit your condescension the next time you're in Confession.

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You are truly a very bitter and sad person. In spite of all the faults of those who lead the Church and in spite of all my failings I remain devoted to the Church's teachings. As someone who thought deeply about such things said "Here I stand. I can do no other". I will pray for you in particular because your passion rightly aligned will be powerful. Then you will be a very positive and happy person.

[Alaska Darin]

Michael, Beaxsox, and I pray for you. I'm sure you don't accept that, but we do.

 

*That*, my ice cold friend, is what sets us apart.

 

And Catholicism doesn't rule out judging people: that admonishment you quote is more in the vein that you shouldn't judge others until you have fully judged yourself. Judging people is important. I need to decide who is evil, and who is not, lest my children fall in league with bad influences. Judging is a natural part of life. So please, don't take that out of context, brother.

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Oh, I understand exactly what that particular phrase means. Hard to give it any credence when so many are guilty of what they supposedly abhorr.

 

Thanks for your prayers. Like the Catholic Church (and, well all of the others too), I'd appreciate your money instead.

[Alaska Darin]

You are truly a very bitter and sad person. In spite of all the faults of those who lead the Church and in spite of all my failings I remain devoted to the Church's teachings. As someone who thought deeply about such things said "Here I stand. I can do no other". I will pray for you in particular because your passion rightly aligned will be powerful. Then you will be a very positive and happy person.

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Thanks Yoda.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Dude,

 

definition of theory is not equvalent to a fact. The recent imposition of the scientific community to impose theory as fact is constantly attempted. This attempt to persuade anyone that if you make enough excuses why something is almost a fact it must a fact is pseudo-intellectual activity. So much for science being impartial when imposing itself.

 

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Michael:

 

Teaching science to this group is an exercise in futility. The faith of people like the Monkey and our icy friend in Alaska and another named Johnny Coli is great. Oh wait. Did I say "faith"? That's right, I did. They have a great deal of faith in their scientific theories, so much so that they make the faith of the ardent Christians they mock pale in comparison.

 

The irony of their grand faith is amusing. As an avid reader of this board, you've no doubt seen the Creationism debate. These fellows feel that ID has no place because it HAS ALL THE ANSWERS. That is the flaw in ID to them- it's utter and beautiful perfection. They believe that the theory with all the holes- evolution- is right.

 

And they mock our faith.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Galileo wasn't convicted of heresy because he believed the world went around the sun. He was convicted of heresy because he said the Bible was wrong on account that the earth went around the sun. He wasn't tortured, beaten, or thrown into exile, but  he was ordered to do the recitation once a week for three years of the penitential psalms, which he had already been doing anyway and voluntarily continued to do afterwards, a practice that would take only fifteen minutes per week. He admitted that he was wrong for what he did, namely, to start a rebellion by writing in the vernacular to incite the crowd without going through the normal means of scientific critiques of peer review. Strangely, Galileo's theory of the earth going around the sun was found to be incorrect on his basis of discovery by tides of the sea which are not based on the sun, but lunar cycles.

 

If you want to know more about the subject look up the word/name Copernicus and see how his discovery (not Galileo's) was that the world went around the sun. He never ventured to say the Bible was errant on that account and was made a Cardinal for his scientific discovery which was lauded by the Church.

 

Lest we also forget heliocentrism is still theory, not fact.

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WTF???

 

If you aren't beausox, then the two of you are at least siamese twins connected at the opinion.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Are you serious? You cannot even copy correctly which is an important skill for you since an original thought has eluded to date. It is "non religIOUS" and curmUdgeon. Admittedly those are minor spelling errors but....... The "are you just learn at his knee" exposes you.

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Well, I am just a crap-throwing simmian [sic].

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Michael:

 

Teaching science to this group is an exercise in futility. The faith of people like the Monkey and our icy friend in Alaska and another named Johnny Coli is great. Oh wait. Did I say "faith"? That's right, I did. They have a great deal of faith in their scientific theories, so much so that they make the faith of the ardent Christians they mock pale in comparison.

 

The irony of their grand faith is amusing. As an avid reader of this board, you've no doubt seen the Creationism debate. These fellows feel that ID has no place because it HAS ALL THE ANSWERS. That is the flaw in ID to them- it's utter and beautiful perfection. They believe that the theory with all the holes- evolution- is right.

 

And they mock our faith.

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This is a truly brilliant line of bull sh--. Really, it's genious. Pure art work. I'm going to print it and have it framed.

 

Too bad the intelligent design you so desperately cling to in the real world is so sadly lacking in your own post...