rockpile Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 I went to church this morning. My wife is Catholic and finds the most peace with that church, and I was there mainly to support her, since this was the first Father's Day without her Dad. I was reminded today why I do not generally participate in organized religion. Today is Father's Day, right? Don't you think that maybe the homily (sermon) might be thematic? I mean, MY thoughts were with my father, father-in-law, and grandfather who have all died. I also thought of my children and grandchildren and was meditating on how I could be a better man for them! No, they had a guest speaker whose entire message concerned fund raising for a Catholic AM radio station they were starting up. So today's message was a 15 minute Infommercial. Another time I was there on Easter Sunday (a different parish, by the way) and on EASTER SUNDAY the first words out of the priest's mouth were an announcement that there would only be one offering collection that day, so if you had two envelopes, don't wait for a second basket. Funny, but I thought "Happy Easter" would have been more appropriate as the opening greeting. I would be interested in knowing how others feel about this kind of thing. Is it just me?
IDBillzFan Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 For me the question ultimately becomes...why go to church? Surely it's not just to give money. So what motivates people to go? Salvation? Strength? Paying homage to God? Methinks that question is where we are lost, moreso than the money gig. I went to church with my wife recently because she has this desire to have our son christened. Frankly, I think it's crap because we don't go to church so having him christened seems a bit hypocritical to me. Nonetheless, we found a "friends" church nearby, and the choir was pretty damn good, but when I left I didn't walk away with any message. Any direction. Any hope. I just left, went home, started cooking dinner and popped open a beer, wondering where the last hour and a half went. A preacher friend of mine in North Carolina once wrote to me that people who attend church no longer go because they want to, but rather they feel like it's the only way to get ready for the rest of the week. I found his letter the other day, interestingly enough, and this is what he wrote: "The thing that drives church people crazy, and they are mostly crazy as loons, is that Jesus is sitting on a park bench in Raleigh right now starving to death and nobody can figure out how to keep it from happening. Jesus is rotting in jail in every country in the world. Jesus had an abortion this morning. Jesus died of an overdose last night. Jesus killed and died in combat yesterday and this morning, and nobody, nobody, nobody so far can figure out how to stop it. So instead of working on all that schitt, (and it is a bunch of schitt) they go to church and listen to numbing songs and numbing preaching and numbing liturgy and try to make the numbness last through the week so they don't have to think about Jesus on that park bench. "Long about Saturday night it gets to be more than they can stand..." I don't attend church enough to know if he's right or wrong, but I take his words to heart.
Alaska Darin Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 So what motivates people to go? Salvation? 361930[/snapback] Lemmingism. Organized religion is all about money and manipulation.
IDBillzFan Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Lemmingism. Organized religion is all about money and manipulation. 361942[/snapback] But not to the audience. Generally speaking.
michaelimagnus Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 I've read this board for 5 years now and I've never made a post before but this thread got me disturbed. I know you probably don't believe this, but religion is something inherent in all of us. Most definitions of a religion pertain to an organized group of people that have certain beliefs or doctrines. In it's essential definition a religion is a public belief of societal laws and government for the good of man. Just because you don't believe in an organized religion doesn't mean you don't have a religious ideology of society. LA and Darin I know you have a very specific idea of how you want society to be and that is a religious outlook, although not a specific denominational outlook. I'm a Catholic, and I'm not a normal Catholic in the sense that I just go to Church on Sundays because it's what I do or how I'm raised. I believe God gave us supernatural truth and I have to follow that truth to achieve salvation. God doesn't need me, but I need Him in order to know things which are not knowable in the natural sphere. To claim lemmings follow organized religions is simply ignorant. I'm acutely aware of the politics and money struggles within the Catholic faith (as I once studied to be a priest among men who were devoted to the poor and impoverished and lived a true life of poverty), and in an analogous way I'm familiar with the same struggles within our government. In neither case does that cause me to stop being a Catholic or being an American because I'm deeply against their politics and money-devouring ways. There are more good men and women giving their lives to God for the good of all of us on earth in one state than all the non-religious curmudgeons who protest things they don't understand, and claim all those who are not of their ilk are sheeple. I recommend you look up the many groups of Catholics who have done nothing but benefit the lives of many people who otherwise would be left to destruction, and the many selfless people who gave us the foundation of western society (hospitals, universities, experimental sciences, etc.), who are all Catholic FYI.
EC-Bills Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 To claim lemmings follow organized religions is simply ignorant. Actually, no, it's not. I grew up in the bible belt and AD hit the nail on the head. These moraly righteous hyporcrates could care less about religion. It's about status and trying to get one-upsmanship on their neighbor. ...all the non-religious curmudgeons who protest things they don't understand, and claim all those who are not of their ilk are sheeple. 361949[/snapback] Who are you to claim "non-religious curmudgeons" protest things they don't understand? How are you any different than these folks with your statements?!?
michaelimagnus Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Actually, no, it's not. I grew up in the bible belt and AD hit the nail on the head. These moraly righteous hyporcrates could care less about religion. It's about status and trying to get one-upsmanship on their neighbor.Who are you to claim "non-religious curmudgeons" protest things they don't understand? How are you any different than these folks with your statements?!? 361950[/snapback] Why is it that when someone gets their own experience with a limited number a people you claim you know what you are talking about? You've met the people I've mentioned that are good solid Catholics devoted to the poor and helping people? Care to name their communities? I don't want names, just some communities you've seen. No, rather you want to tell me about Protestants in the Bible belt. In case you haven't noticed look at the title of the thread and realize the subject material that's up for discussion. Who am I to claim that non-religious curmudgeons protest things they don't understand? Simple, look at your response, look at the title of the thread and show me how your response is has any relation to objective sphere of conversation. I talk on the objective level of what things we are and the discussion in play. You are discussing your relationship with Bible belt Protestants. If that offends you and you think that's hypocritical speaking the truth is an act of charity as long as I'm not degrading you there is nothing wrong in what I said. Being that my experience has seen the whole gambit of people who claim a Christian denomination and their objective beliefs I know far better than yourself what those beliefs are and how good people live that life.
SilverNRed Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Why is it that when someone gets their own experience with a limited number a people you claim you know what you are talking about? You've met the people I've mentioned that are good solid Catholics devoted to the poor and helping people? Care to name their communities? I don't want names, just some communities you've seen. No, rather you want to tell me about Protestants in the Bible belt. In case you haven't noticed look at the title of the thread and realize the subject material that's up for discussion. Who am I to claim that non-religious curmudgeons protest things they don't understand? Simple, look at your response, look at the title of the thread and show me how your response is has any relation to objective sphere of conversation. I talk on the objective level of what things we are and the discussion in play. You are discussing your relationship with Bible belt Protestants. If that offends you and you think that's hypocritical speaking the truth is an act of charity as long as I'm not degrading you there is nothing wrong in what I said. Being that my experience has seen the whole gambit of people who claim a Christian denomination and their objective beliefs I know far better than yourself what those beliefs are and how good people live that life. 361954[/snapback] Good thoughts.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Who am I to claim that non-religious curmudgeons protest things they don't understand?361954[/snapback] Of course, there's no such thing as a "non-religions curmodgeon", since I know you probably don't believe this, but religion is something inherent in all of us. Is this beausox, or are you just learn at his knee?
michaelimagnus Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 I meant to say non-denominational curmudgeon. We all make typos, look at the way you spelled curmudgeon. See? It's pretty easy to do.
Terry Tate Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 ... I was reminded today why I do not generally participate in organized religion. ... I would be interested in knowing how others feel about this kind of thing. Is it just me? No, it's not just you. Many people who attend mass would disapprove. Some might even discuss it with the pastor.
EC-Bills Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Why is it that when someone gets their own experience with a limited number a people you claim you know what you are talking about? You've met the people I've mentioned that are good solid Catholics devoted to the poor and helping people? Care to name their communities? I don't want names, just some communities you've seen. Limited number of people? How do you know? What constitutes a limited number of people to you? I have been in many states accross this country and observed many things as well as things abroad. Why is that less significant or limited? Furthermore, I never said there were not good Cathlics who help people. I was responding to your claim it is ignorant to assume lemmings followed organized religion. You and I have a difference of opinion. No, rather you want to tell me about Protestants in the Bible belt. In case you haven't noticed look at the title of the thread and realize the subject material that's up for discussion. Where did I mention protestants in my previous reply? There are more than just protestants in the bible belt, you know. Who am I to claim that non-religious curmudgeons protest things they don't understand? Simple, look at your response, look at the title of the thread and show me how your response is has any relation to objective sphere of conversation. I talk on the objective level of what things we are and the discussion in play. How do you know I am non-religious? Since I dared to question you or point out differing thoughts I am somehow not objective or religious? What I don't do is go making blanket statements that say anyone who doesn't agree with me or my religious views are people who protest things they don't understand. You are discussing your relationship with Bible belt Protestants. Once again, there are more than just protestants in the bible belt, shouldn't you know that with all your worldly knowledge? If that offends you and you think that's hypocritical speaking the truth is an act of charity as long as I'm not degrading you there is nothing wrong in what I said. Being that my experience has seen the whole gambit of people who claim a Christian denomination and their objective beliefs I know far better than yourself what those beliefs are and how good people live that life. 361954[/snapback] What bugs me is your ability to lay claim that your experiences/views are somehow more valid than others when you don't know anything about them or their experiences
Dr. Fong Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 A preacher friend of mine once wrote: "The thing that drives church people crazy, and they are mostly crazy as loons, is that Jesus is sitting on a park bench in Raleigh right now starving to death and nobody can figure out how to keep it from happening. Jesus is rotting in jail in every country in the world. Jesus had an abortion this morning. Jesus died of an overdose last night. Jesus killed and died in combat yesterday and this morning, and nobody, nobody, nobody so far can figure out how to stop it. So instead of working on all that schitt, (and it is a bunch of schitt) they go to church and listen to numbing songs and numbing preaching and numbing liturgy and try to make the numbness last through the week so they don't have to think about Jesus on that park bench. "Long about Saturday night it gets to be more than they can stand..." I don't attend church enough to know if he's right or wrong, but I take his words to heart. 361930[/snapback] Was it this guy? Your Preacher friend?
Terry Tate Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 For me the question ultimately becomes...why go to church? Surely it's not just to give money. So what motivates people to go? Salvation?Certainly a part of it.Strength?Could be, as an aside.Paying homage to God?That's the core of it.
Terry Tate Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Lemmingism. Organized religion is all about money and manipulation. 361942[/snapback] But not to the audience. Generally speaking. 361945[/snapback] And neither is it to the clergy. Generally speaking.
Lemur King Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I know you probably don't believe this, but religion is something inherent in all of us. Most definitions of a religion pertain to an organized group of people that have certain beliefs or doctrines. In it's essential definition a religion is a public belief of societal laws and government for the good of man. Just because you don't believe in an organized religion doesn't mean you don't have a religious ideology of society. LA and Darin I know you have a very specific idea of how you want society to be and that is a religious outlook, although not a specific denominational outlook. Having an idea of how I want a society to be is religion? That's a bit of an expansive definition, don't you think? I recommend you look up the many groups of Catholics who have done nothing but benefit the lives of many people who otherwise would be left to destruction, and the many selfless people who gave us the foundation of western society (hospitals, universities, experimental sciences, etc.), who are all Catholic FYI. 361949[/snapback] Before I comment, what do you mean by this part, especially the bold? Are you saying that the selfless people who gave us the foundation of western society are all Catholic? That's what your sentence says- is that your claim?
Reuben Gant Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Today is Father's Day, right? Don't you think that maybe the homily (sermon) might be thematic? I mean, MY thoughts were with my father, father-in-law, and grandfather who have all died. I also thought of my children and grandchildren and was meditating on how I could be a better man for them! 361922[/snapback] For many Catholics, the center of their life is the Eucharist. That's why most don't get too upset by poor preaching, bad music, missed oportunities, etc. but prayerfully bring all that stuff you mentioned into the mass.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I meant to say non-denominational curmudgeon. We all make typos, look at the way you spelled curmudgeon. See? It's pretty easy to do. 361962[/snapback] "Denominational" is a typo of "religious"? This has got to be a joke...
rockpile Posted June 20, 2005 Author Posted June 20, 2005 For me the question ultimately becomes...why go to church? Surely it's not just to give money. So what motivates people to go? Salvation? Strength? Paying homage to God?361930[/snapback] In my case, today I went to provide a shoulder if my wife needed it. My own personal cathedral is somethng resembling a mountain stream in Vermont on a sunny day, or the choir-like voices that can be heard in the wind as it passes over a forest. My wife finds solace in the meditative ritual she grew up with in the Catholic church. It is a quiet focus that helps her prepare for her week. It is not really that different than the choirs in the trees that I described. I have experienced a lot of different religions, from the gamut of protestant faiths, to buddhism, to shamanism, to born again Baptist. I have concluded that church is wherever I want it to be. To answer your original question, I go occasionally to be with the ones I love, and it makes them happy if I am willing to give up an hour of my day to share with them something that matters to them.
rockpile Posted June 20, 2005 Author Posted June 20, 2005 I've read this board for 5 years now and I've never made a post before but this thread got me disturbed. 361949[/snapback] I guess I was somewhat successful in starting it then. I admit I was shooting for "pensive" more than "disturbed".
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