Guardian Cap

[Figster]

20 hours ago, Starr-Bills said:

The problem is the helmets. Specifically the plastic shell. This is known from research done around motorcycle helmets. Plastic helmets when they hit a hard surface, bend and squeeze, and actually can create more force that travels through the brain. Almost all motorcycle crash helmets at this point, our fiberglass or carbon fiber, or some combination there of with the, intention of crumbling, or crushing from the impact thereby dissipating the energy rather than transferring a new one through the helmet. This makes them all one use and if you drop your helmet or have a small fall on the side and hit your head, you should trash that helmet. Sure hasn’t been dropped. This is very similar to crumple zones on cars trying to dissipate the energy before it’s transferred to the passengers inside, soft and squishy like a brain.

 

How does this relate to football helmets? I’ve been watching this for several years and you’ll notice more and more helmets. Have a cut out in the front on three sides so that that piece can flex now you’re seeing this year big cut outs on the right and left sides that can flex separate from the entire helmet to make them look cool and they make it look like ventilation and I’m sure there’s some ventilation affect, but most of that is to simulate the same kind of crush zones in a fiberglass helmet or a modern car.

 

this is an improvement and actually if they still wanted to have a hard shell plastic helmet, it should be cut up into many more Crush zones.

 

Honestly, my opinion is going back to a modern version of the old leather helmets is probably the best solution for several reasons. First, being without a hard shell helmet players would feel less and vulnerable and might work to protect themselves by not hitting or leading with their heads psychological win. the second would be the soft cushion could be developed to crumble or Crush and dissipate the energy without the resonance from the plastic shell. My guess is that they won’t ever go to something like this because the current helmets look too cool, and there are issues with how do you attach a face mask which has gone a long way to protecting players faces.
 

just for reference, I was in the motorcycle industry for a time and raced motorcycles, avidly and read a lot of reports on helmet, safety testing and design. PS don’t buy a plastic helmet and if someone you that you care about has a motorcycle encourage or buy them a properly rated fiberglass based helmet preferably full face.

This way a very good post for many reasons IMO.

 

I wanted to highlight the opinion you have on old leather helmets. Keep this topic current. TSW was having discussions here on exterior helmet padding over a decade ago. While the idea of wearing such an old and outdated head protection may appear like taking a step backward from modern day helmets worn in the NFL. From an overall injury standpoint it would not surprise me If a modern version of a soft interior exterior head protection performs better then top of the line helmets being used now.   Air filled head protection was one of my initial thoughts in earlier discussion. Very light weight and able to absorb and disperse the impact in a way that counters any inner movement of the brain. Shield the face in a way that allows frontal impact to also be absorbed through the head protection.

 

Down sizing the bulky look of the Guardian cap and making it more attractive would go a long way when it comes to player voluntary participation in a new form of head protection IMO. Clear, air filled padding perhaps. 

[Starr-Bills]

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

This way a very good post for many reasons IMO.

 

I wanted to highlight the opinion you have on old leather helmets. Keep this topic current. TSW was having discussions here on exterior helmet padding over a decade ago. While the idea of wearing such an old and outdated head protection may appear like taking a step backward from modern day helmets worn in the NFL. From an overall injury standpoint it would not surprise me If a modern version of a soft interior exterior head protection performs better then top of the line helmets being used now.   Air filled head protection was one of my initial thoughts in earlier discussion. Very light weight and able to absorb and disperse the impact in a way that counters any inner movement of the brain. Shield the face in a way that allows frontal impact to also be absorbed through the head protection.

 

Down sizing the bulky look of the Guardian cap and making it more attractive would go a long way when it comes to player voluntary participation in a new form of head protection IMO. Clear, air filled padding perhaps. 

Agreed, guardian caps with plastic covers on each pad might be a good compromise. The important thing thing is to reduce the resonance from the plastic shell on impact.  

[Saxum]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:50 PM, Figster said:

Thought I would bump this thread because had Tua been wearing a Guardian cap throughout his pro Career, Tua's career wouldn't be over now.

 

Tua was Born to play the game of Foosball... 

 

Corrected spelling error 😁

[Sierra Foothills]

On 8/9/2024 at 4:50 AM, Punching Bag said:

I am sure the new extra padding is in marketing partnership with NFL which seems to be most important thing.

 

On 8/9/2024 at 5:10 AM, major said:

You are probably right because we know the nfl doesn’t care about player’s health #justsaying

 

On 8/9/2024 at 6:31 AM, Punching Bag said:

 

Neither does NFLPA IMO for it was objecting to new safety equipment because they were worried it would hurt some players' incentives.

 

Interestingly the NFLPA was also against banning the Hip Drop Tackle even though it was statistically proven that it resulted in a substantially higher incidence of injury to the ball carrier.

 

Back to the topic, the thing all parties care most about is shedding liability. Monetizing equipment and uniforms is a close second.

 

On 8/9/2024 at 2:49 PM, Mike in Horseheads said:

I'm surprised they don't have stickers on them like NASCARS

 

Set your timer to 30 seconds...

 

On 9/12/2024 at 9:24 PM, Warcodered said:

I'm not sure that would have helped on that play, when you slam your head into someone's chest like that a concussion is pretty hard to avoid. Might have given him a lesser history though.

 

I thought the collision between Hamlin and Tua was very mild... softer than an average tackle in that situation. JMO.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 9:29 PM, Figster said:

IOn a side note that was Damar Hamlin taking another hard hit to the chest. Its very possible the Guardian cap also helps safeguard against that kind of hit that stopped Hamlins heart IMO. 

 

Absolutely. The caps absorb energy so they would also mitigate damage to all body parts they impact... knees, ribs, everything.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 9:29 PM, NoSaint said:

Tua just has no natural feel for impacts. He’s an athlete that isn’t naturally athletic almost. 

 

On 9/12/2024 at 10:00 PM, Beck Water said:

I give Tua props as a decision maker and an accurate passer when he has time, but Tua seems to have very little field awareness as a runner.

I'm glad you mentioned this.  I was wondering how Hamlin must have felt, making that tackle then watching Tua writhe around and seeing the trainers come racing over.  I hope it doesn't give him flashbacks.

 

To the above 2 posts, yes Tua seems like he doesn't know how to protect himself.

 

To your second point, Hamlin's responses to those very questions was quite interesting. The Hamlin replies I saw made it seem like he emotionally firewalled himself from the play... he seemed very detached.

 

On 9/13/2024 at 2:17 AM, Poleshifter said:

A funny thing happened in a recent CFL game.  Among a cluster of green helmets, one special teams guy wore a guardian cap, but it was black.

 

From the far away camera angle, it looked like a guy with a giant afro and no helmet.

 

Odd that they didn't have a green one for him.

 

 

It's the CFL. If I recall correctly each team gets an equipment allowance of $6700 per year. For the entire team. 🙃

 

On 9/13/2024 at 2:23 AM, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Then he got hurt on a completely regular Benign play. Now he seems to be much more mellow out there. The guy is going to

be ok. That was one freak thing. We all fear for the guy everytime he hits someone but he’s going to be good. We are through the worst. Just have to appreciate the miracle surrounding his situation and be happy for him. It’s not going to happen again we can all take a breath 

 

It tastes better if you call it a Beignet play.

 

On 9/13/2024 at 12:49 PM, Marcus Aurelius said:

 

 

 

Can you imagine the carnage if NFL players wore MLB caps?

 

21 hours ago, Starr-Bills said:

Honestly, my opinion is going back to a modern version of the old leather helmets is probably the best solution for several reasons. First, being without a hard shell helmet players would feel less and vulnerable and might work to protect themselves by not hitting or leading with their heads psychological win. the second would be the soft cushion could be developed to crumble or Crush and dissipate the energy without the resonance from the plastic shell. My guess is that they won’t ever go to something like this because the current helmets look too cool, and there are issues with how do you attach a face mask which has gone a long way to protecting players faces.
 

just for reference, I was in the motorcycle industry for a time and raced motorcycles, avidly and read a lot of reports on helmet, safety testing and design. PS don’t buy a plastic helmet and if someone you that you care about has a motorcycle encourage or buy them a properly rated fiberglass based helmet preferably full face.

 

Great stuff. I was gonna mention crumple zones AND leather helmets but you beat me to it.

 

There is the school of thought that the modern helmet has given the players a false sense of security AND that players have learned to weaponize it (see Rapp, Poyer, etc). Some feel that a softer helmet will eliminate both of these unintended consequences.

 

On a related note Muhammad Ali used to not wear headgear when sparring because he didn't want to develop a false sense of security. It was a good thought but it didn't work out too well in the end.

 

58 minutes ago, Figster said:

This way a very good post for many reasons IMO.

 

I wanted to highlight the opinion you have on old leather helmets. Keep this topic current. TSW was having discussions here on exterior helmet padding over a decade ago. While the idea of wearing such an old and outdated head protection may appear like taking a step backward from modern day helmets worn in the NFL. From an overall injury standpoint it would not surprise me If a modern version of a soft interior exterior head protection performs better then top of the line helmets being used now.   Air filled head protection was one of my initial thoughts in earlier discussion. Very light weight and able to absorb and disperse the impact in a way that counters any inner movement of the brain. Shield the face in a way that allows frontal impact to also be absorbed through the head protection.

 

Down sizing the bulky look of the Guardian cap and making it more attractive would go a long way when it comes to player voluntary participation in a new form of head protection IMO. Clear, air filled padding perhaps. 

 

Agree with you and @Starr-Bills.

 

I think the engineering challenge is attaching the facemask to the helmet itself.

 

Edited September 14 by Sierra Foothills

[Saxum]

15 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

 think the engineering challenge is attaching the facemask to the helmet itself.

 

 

(Josh) Allen Tape -  He gets residuals and Bills can afford to keep him as QB.

 

[Starr-Bills]

2 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

There is the school of thought that the modern helmet has given the players a false sense of security AND that players have learned to weaponize it (see Rapp, Poyer, etc). Some feel that a softer helmet will eliminate both of these unintended consequences.

Agreed, I was thinking something similar but didn’t know of any studies on that and you said it very clear and succinct.

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

Absolutely. The caps absorb energy so they would also mitigate damage to all body parts they impact... knees, ribs, everything.

 

Great stuff. I was gonna mention crumple zones AND leather helmets but you beat me to it.

 

Just FYI—Helmets don’t “absorb” energy, at least not in the way most people think. They dampen, disperse, and dissipate it. During a hit, the energy from the impact is primarily kinetic energy, which is the product of one-half the mass of the player, multiplied by the velocity squared (KE = 1/2 mv²). When two players collide, some of this kinetic energy is transformed into thermal energy as the materials in the helmet (or body) compresses and deforms. Some of the energy is also converted into mechanical energy (sound), which is why you hear the “pop.” If the helmets or players bodies deform during the hit, that’s also energy being transformed through deformation, meaning the force is spread out and thus reducing the impact on one specific location. This is the basis of impulse momentum theorem, which states that the force multiplied by the time of impact equals the change in momentum (FΔt = Δp). Extending the time of impact reduces the force experienced. In more elastic collisions, this energy remains mostly as kinetic.

 

The idea of leather helmets is ridiculous and regressive, and would lead to skull fractures. 

[Sierra Foothills]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Just FYI—Helmets don’t “absorb” energy, at least not in the way most people think. They dampen, disperse, and dissipate it.

 

The idea of leather helmets is ridiculous and regressive, and would lead to skull fractures. 

 

Semantics. I'll certainly go along with "dampened" over absorbed if that's what is correct.

 

Is this equipment dampening?

 

 

To your second point I don't think anyone is really thinking about leather per se but more the idea of materials which are more forgiving of collisions... and materials that can't make the helmet a weapon.

 

That said it would be hard to drastically change helmet materials in one fell swoop. If they went to a different protective approach it would have to be done incrementally.

 

 

 

[Einstein]

31 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Semantics. I'll certainly go along with "dampened" over absorbed if that's what is correct.

 

Is this equipment dampening?

 

 

To your second point I don't think anyone is really thinking about leather per se but more the idea of materials which are more forgiving of collisions... and materials that can't make the helmet a weapon.

 

That said it would be hard to drastically change helmet materials in one fell swoop. If they went to a different protective approach it would have to be done incrementally.

 

Those big balls are funny. Yes, the safety of the ball works by dampening the the energy that transferred. When you hit something, the ball compresses and stores potential energy. It then decompresses and releases the stored energy which compels the person backward. It is actually a great analogy of why helmet design is so difficult. The energy has to go *somewhere*. In the ball, that energy is released by sending the human inside it flying across the field. Physics doesn’t allow energy to simply be absorbed and then disappear. Unlike the air ball, where potential energy is released via the bounce-back, a helmet distribute energy without projectiling the brain. This is what makes the challenge of helmet design so tricky. How do we manage that energy?

 

[Figster]

17 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Just FYI—Helmets don’t “absorb” energy, at least not in the way most people think. They dampen, disperse, and dissipate it. During a hit, the energy from the impact is primarily kinetic energy, which is the product of one-half the mass of the player, multiplied by the velocity squared (KE = 1/2 mv²). When two players collide, some of this kinetic energy is transformed into thermal energy as the materials in the helmet (or body) compresses and deforms. Some of the energy is also converted into mechanical energy (sound), which is why you hear the “pop.” If the helmets or players bodies deform during the hit, that’s also energy being transformed through deformation, meaning the force is spread out and thus reducing the impact on one specific location. This is the basis of impulse momentum theorem, which states that the force multiplied by the time of impact equals the change in momentum (FΔt = Δp). Extending the time of impact reduces the force experienced. In more elastic collisions, this energy remains mostly as kinetic.

 

The idea of leather helmets is ridiculous and regressive, and would lead to skull fractures. 

The hard shelled exterior of helmets is causing as many injuries as it prevents. It caused the NFL to make changes in how a defender can tackle and has now become next to impossible on some plays.

 

Nobody wants old leather helmets. The soft exterior is what makes the leather helmets more safe for the player getting hit by it. So you modify what you have and expand upon why it works. Modern day helmets are a joke without the Guardian cap.

 

All of them...

Edited September 15 by Figster

[Figster]

16 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Those big balls are funny. Yes, the safety of the ball works by dampening the the energy that transferred. When you hit something, the ball compresses and stores potential energy. It then decompresses and releases the stored energy which compels the person backward. It is actually a great analogy of why helmet design is so difficult. The energy has to go *somewhere*. In the ball, that energy is released by sending the human inside it flying across the field. Physics doesn’t allow energy to simply be absorbed and then disappear. Unlike the air ball, where potential energy is released via the bounce-back, a helmet distribute energy without projectiling the brain. This is what makes the challenge of helmet design so tricky. How do we manage that energy?

 

 Air displacement.

 

Decreasing the amount of energy created on impact is a good start don't you think?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Just read this from an article about the Guardian Cap, I'm sure this will be contested, but maybe is correct??

 

Don’t count on these new helmet caps to protect against concussions, experts said.

“The problem is that people confuse head injuries with brain injuries,” Dr. Jamshid Ghajar, a neurosurgeon and the president of the Brain Trauma Foundation, told me. “Helmets definitely help with head injuries,” like a fractured skull or injuries to the scalp, he noted, but they don’t help with concussions.

Concussions arise when a person’s neck bends and twists after the head is hit. That was apparent on Thursday, when the Miami Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa suffered a concussion from a tackle that caused his neck to turn sharply.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

The hard shelled exterior of helmets is causing as many injuries as it prevents.

 

There is zero evidence of this.

 

Due the mechanism of concussions, the hard shell is not meant to prevent them. It is meant to prevent TBI’s and skull fractures. They were developed because humans were dying, right on the field and in emergency rooms, from head hits before helmets.

 

Someone else in this thread mentioned crumple zones and helmets similar to motorcycle helmets. But those are one-time use. You are supposed to throw a motorcycle helmet away after a collision. NFL would be throwing away between 240 and 300 helmets every game.

 

Edited September 15 by Einstein

[Einstein]

26 minutes ago, Figster said:

 Air displacement.

 

Are you trying to reduce concussions or increase the risk? I assume you mean external air displacement. How familiar are you with the physics involved?

 

If you introduce air displacement into a helmet, you’re converting the kinetic energy from an impact into potential energy stored in the compressed air. When that air decompresses, the stored energy is released, which could cause the head to spring back after an impact.

 

Now, picture a football player falling backward and hitting their head on the turf. The energy from the impact would be stored as potential energy, but when that energy is released, it could cause the head to rebound off the turf. This ‘bounce-back’ effect would increase the risk of concussions or other forms of traumatic brain injury. Managing impact energy is about absorbing it, not releasing it back into the head.

 

Sounds like a good way to sever brain stems.

[Figster]

26 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

There is zero evidence of this.

 

Due the mechanism of concussions, the hard shell is not meant to prevent them. It is meant to prevent TBI’s and skull fractures. They were developed because humans were dying, right on the field and in emergency rooms, from head hits before helmets.

 

Someone else in this thread mentioned crumple zones and helmets similar to motorcycle helmets. But those are one-time use. You are supposed to throw a motorcycle helmet away after a collision. NFL would be throwing away between 240 and 300 helmets every game.

 

Why do you think padding on the exterior of the helmet is decreasing the chance of concussion? X 2 when two helmets collide.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15 by Figster

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, Figster said:

Why do you think padding on the exterior of the helmet is decreasing the chance of concussion? X 2 when two helmets collide.

 

Padding on the outside of the helmet doesn’t use air displacement. The padding functions by absorbing and dispersing impact energy through the padded outer layer. It compresses on impact, which reduces both linear and rotational forces that reach the head. This in turn helps to slow down the impact by spreading the force over a larger area and increasing the time of deceleration, thus reducing the peak force that reaches the brain.

[Figster]

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Padding on the outside of the helmet doesn’t use air displacement. The padding functions by absorbing and dispersing impact energy through the padded outer layer. It compresses on impact, which reduces both linear and rotational forces that reach the head. This in turn helps to slow down the impact by spreading the force over a larger area and increasing the time of deceleration, thus reducing the peak force that reaches the brain.

I never said exterior helmet padding used air displacement. My idea on a better helmet does by allowing the compressed air that serves as light weight padding to be displaced on impact to other sections of the helmet. One air compartment with flexible expandable capabilities.

 

  

[Saxum]

The NFL needs to penalize more meaningfully lowering and hitting with head as Tua did.  It will not include when player moves head into hit. It needs to involve loss of game checks and suspended from games when player is healthy. Penalties will increase with repeated use of helmet as weapon.  

 

A player may choose to hit opposition player with head for it may prevent a big play and they feel that is worth it but if it is a bigger penalty each time they will change their actions.  

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, Figster said:

I never said exterior helmet padding used air displacement. My idea on a better helmet does by allowing the compressed air that serves as light weight padding to be displaced on impact to other sections of the helmet. One air compartment with flexible expandable capabilities.

 

And then where does that compressed air go?

[Sierra Foothills]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

And then where does that compressed air go?

 

In mechanics the use of pressure relief valves is quite common.