Mr. WEO Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/16/2025 at 9:09 PM, Figster said: Some players like Tua for instance are more vulnerable because of the cumulative damage already done. Something the Guardian cap also helps reduce and why I'm happy to see many football programs implementing the protection to its players at an early age. Expand On 1/16/2025 at 9:17 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said: Data shows they help. Nothing will ever prevent concussions. Expand The data so far is garbage. these things are a fig leaf for the NFL. Perfect product to pretend that they are interested in mitigating injury. These things do not do that. "Although the National Football League reported a 50% reduction in concussion incidence during the 2022 preseason following the mandate for particular position groups to wear the Guardian Cap for team practices [13], most evidence supporting the utility of Guardian Cap was yielded from laboratory-based investigations [14,15]. The Guardian Cap reduced head impact severity during a helmet-drop test at only 2 of 6 helmet locations at high speed (5.47 m/s), and no reductions were observed following low (3.46 m/s) and medium (4.89 m/s) drop speeds across all helmet locations [15]." "Based on our preliminary findings, protective soft-shell padding did not reduce head linear or rotational accelerations among a subset of college football players. Additionally, gameplay characteristics fundamental to offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and tight ends did not affect peak linear and rotational acceleration between those with and without soft-shell padding." NFL should not be promoting these as risk reduction devices because as of yet, there is no data to support this sales pitch. 4 1 Quote
Don Otreply Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 9/13/2024 at 4:19 AM, pennstate10 said: Taylor Rapp for sure should wear one. I’m not joking. Expand He does wear one, 1 Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/17/2025 at 12:57 AM, Mr. WEO said: The data so far is garbage. these things are a fig leaf for the NFL. Perfect product to pretend that they are interested in mitigating injury. These things do not do that. "Although the National Football League reported a 50% reduction in concussion incidence during the 2022 preseason following the mandate for particular position groups to wear the Guardian Cap for team practices [13], most evidence supporting the utility of Guardian Cap was yielded from laboratory-based investigations [14,15]. The Guardian Cap reduced head impact severity during a helmet-drop test at only 2 of 6 helmet locations at high speed (5.47 m/s), and no reductions were observed following low (3.46 m/s) and medium (4.89 m/s) drop speeds across all helmet locations [15]." "Based on our preliminary findings, protective soft-shell padding did not reduce head linear or rotational accelerations among a subset of college football players. Additionally, gameplay characteristics fundamental to offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and tight ends did not affect peak linear and rotational acceleration between those with and without soft-shell padding." NFL should not be promoting these as risk reduction devices because as of yet, there is no data to support this sales pitch. Expand Any improvement is better than nothing. Right? On 1/17/2025 at 1:13 AM, Don Otreply said: He does wear one, Expand And Tua doesn’t believe it would help him. So there’s a lot of different opinions on them. Quote
Figster Posted January 17 Posted January 17 (edited) On 1/17/2025 at 12:57 AM, Mr. WEO said: The data so far is garbage. these things are a fig leaf for the NFL. Perfect product to pretend that they are interested in mitigating injury. These things do not do that. "Although the National Football League reported a 50% reduction in concussion incidence during the 2022 preseason following the mandate for particular position groups to wear the Guardian Cap for team practices [13], most evidence supporting the utility of Guardian Cap was yielded from laboratory-based investigations [14,15]. The Guardian Cap reduced head impact severity during a helmet-drop test at only 2 of 6 helmet locations at high speed (5.47 m/s), and no reductions were observed following low (3.46 m/s) and medium (4.89 m/s) drop speeds across all helmet locations [15]." "Based on our preliminary findings, protective soft-shell padding did not reduce head linear or rotational accelerations among a subset of college football players. Additionally, gameplay characteristics fundamental to offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and tight ends did not affect peak linear and rotational acceleration between those with and without soft-shell padding." NFL should not be promoting these as risk reduction devices because as of yet, there is no data to support this sales pitch. Expand You left a part out An adaptation by Bailey et al. examined head impact severity from two helmets colliding at various angles replicative of gameplay with various helmet model and soft-shell padding combinations [14]. They observed an average reduction in head impact severity by 9% compared to helmets not equipped with the Guardian Cap, and upwards of 20% when both helmets had a Guardian Cap [14]. From these early findings, it is important for researchers to consider both the helmet’s location of impact in addition to potential factors in gameplay scenarios that may influence the efficacy of soft-shell padding. https://academic.oup.com/acn/article-abstract/38/5/823/7199416?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://physicianresources.baptisthealth.net/news/nfl-s-new-guardian-caps-to-prevent-head-injuries-the-takeaways-for-the-athlete-in-all-of-us Myself personally, the Guardian cap and current top helmet makers need to come together and build a more trimmed down version. I'm not sure the same amount of interior protection is needed when more is provided on the exterior of the helmet. (speculation) Make it look good and not add extra weight players will wear it IMO. Edited January 17 by Figster 2 Quote
JP51 Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/17/2025 at 12:57 AM, Mr. WEO said: The data so far is garbage. these things are a fig leaf for the NFL. Perfect product to pretend that they are interested in mitigating injury. These things do not do that. "Although the National Football League reported a 50% reduction in concussion incidence during the 2022 preseason following the mandate for particular position groups to wear the Guardian Cap for team practices [13], most evidence supporting the utility of Guardian Cap was yielded from laboratory-based investigations [14,15]. The Guardian Cap reduced head impact severity during a helmet-drop test at only 2 of 6 helmet locations at high speed (5.47 m/s), and no reductions were observed following low (3.46 m/s) and medium (4.89 m/s) drop speeds across all helmet locations [15]." "Based on our preliminary findings, protective soft-shell padding did not reduce head linear or rotational accelerations among a subset of college football players. Additionally, gameplay characteristics fundamental to offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and tight ends did not affect peak linear and rotational acceleration between those with and without soft-shell padding." NFL should not be promoting these as risk reduction devices because as of yet, there is no data to support this sales pitch. Expand I think the rules changes have had a bigger impact on the number of concussions than the helmets Quote
Don Otreply Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/17/2025 at 1:55 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said: Any improvement is better than nothing. Right? And Tua doesn’t believe it would help him. So there’s a lot of different opinions on them. Expand Well, they certainly don’t hurt, and very likely dissipate shock through the cranium, 1 Quote
shrader Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/17/2025 at 2:42 AM, Figster said: Myself personally, the Guardian cap and current top helmet makers need to come together and build a more trimmed down version. I'm not sure the same amount of interior protection is needed when more is provided on the exterior of the helmet. (speculation) Make it look good and not add extra weight players will wear it IMO. Expand oh great, you’re removing interior padding now. Fortunately we’ll never see just how bad of an idea that is. 1 Quote
Mr. WEO Posted January 17 Posted January 17 On 1/17/2025 at 1:55 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said: Any improvement is better than nothing. Right? And Tua doesn’t believe it would help him. So there’s a lot of different opinions on them. Expand It's not an improvement--the data says so. On 1/17/2025 at 2:42 AM, Figster said: You left a part out An adaptation by Bailey et al. examined head impact severity from two helmets colliding at various angles replicative of gameplay with various helmet model and soft-shell padding combinations [14]. They observed an average reduction in head impact severity by 9% compared to helmets not equipped with the Guardian Cap, and upwards of 20% when both helmets had a Guardian Cap [14]. From these early findings, it is important for researchers to consider both the helmet’s location of impact in addition to potential factors in gameplay scenarios that may influence the efficacy of soft-shell padding. https://academic.oup.com/acn/article-abstract/38/5/823/7199416?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://physicianresources.baptisthealth.net/news/nfl-s-new-guardian-caps-to-prevent-head-injuries-the-takeaways-for-the-athlete-in-all-of-us Myself personally, the Guardian cap and current top helmet makers need to come together and build a more trimmed down version. I'm not sure the same amount of interior protection is needed when more is provided on the exterior of the helmet. (speculation) Make it look good and not add extra weight players will wear it IMO. Expand yes that was the next sentence. I left it out because it does not change the fact of the first 2 paragraphs. These things do nothing to decrease head injury. These are machine tests. All they could show was that, in one experiment, if one helmet with and one without are made to hit eachother, the one with has 9% less impact severity. There is no data at all suggesting this has any impact on head injuries for football players. Players have loudly spoken---they don't see these things as effective (they are literally a thin pad strapped to their helmets) in protecting them. And to this point, they are right. The NFL is happy to say they are "doing something" about this issue and this company is happy to supply them with enough pseudo data to make it all seem like "the right thing to do". If this was a medical device, it would never get FDA approval simply for the near complete lack of demonstrable efficacy. 1 Quote
Figster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) On 1/17/2025 at 1:09 PM, Mr. WEO said: It's not an improvement--the data says so. yes that was the next sentence. I left it out because it does not change the fact of the first 2 paragraphs. These things do nothing to decrease head injury. These are machine tests. All they could show was that, in one experiment, if one helmet with and one without are made to hit eachother, the one with has 9% less impact severity. There is no data at all suggesting this has any impact on head injuries for football players. Players have loudly spoken---they don't see these things as effective (they are literally a thin pad strapped to their helmets) in protecting them. And to this point, they are right. The NFL is happy to say they are "doing something" about this issue and this company is happy to supply them with enough pseudo data to make it all seem like "the right thing to do". If this was a medical device, it would never get FDA approval simply for the near complete lack of demonstrable efficacy. Expand Common sense tells you the padded protection/energy absorption actually does what it was meant to at the point of impact. Not after two hard shelled exteriors collide. If you can't understand this then I'm wasting my time. https://www.sportsdestinations.com/sports/football/guardian-caps-youth-football-programs-expected-34222 Maybe this will help When you think about the way a concussion happens, it's because your brain is floating inside your skull, and when you get hit or you experience a whiplash, it bounces around inside your skull," added Mel Haupt, Park's athletic trainer. "So, if we can add something on top of it to absorb some of that force, less force is going to get transmitted through the helmet, through your skull, and then into your brain.” Edited January 18 by Figster Quote
Figster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) On 1/17/2025 at 1:07 PM, shrader said: oh great, you’re removing interior padding now. Fortunately we’ll never see just how bad of an idea that is. Expand Not in its entirety. How the current NFL helmet looks with the Guardian cap over it needs to be trimmed down. Or players won't wear it. By adding padding on the exterior its possible less is needed on the interior. (speculation) The technologies need to come together, helmet makers and maker of the Guardian cap IMO. Edited January 18 by Figster Quote
DCofNC Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/18/2025 at 1:16 AM, Figster said: Common sense tells you the padded protection/energy absorption actually does what it was meant to at the point of impact. Not after two hard shelled exteriors collide. If you can't understand this then I'm wasting my time. https://www.sportsdestinations.com/sports/football/guardian-caps-youth-football-programs-expected-34222 Maybe this will help When you think about the way a concussion happens, it's because your brain is floating inside your skull, and when you get hit or you experience a whiplash, it bounces around inside your skull," added Mel Haupt, Park's athletic trainer. "So, if we can add something on top of it to absorb some of that force, less force is going to get transmitted through the helmet, through your skull, and then into your brain.” Expand The problem is, cushioning the impact doesn’t change inertia, the brain is still moving at say 15mph, the stop of that momentum is the issue. Doesn’t matter if you hit a pillow, if the momentum is stopped, the brain is slapping the skull. That tiny bit of padding may alleviate a tiny bit of force, but in the collisions that cause concussions, there’s no data to support it makes any difference. 1 Quote
Figster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) On 1/18/2025 at 3:21 AM, DCofNC said: The problem is, cushioning the impact doesn’t change inertia, the brain is still moving at say 15mph, the stop of that momentum is the issue. Doesn’t matter if you hit a pillow, if the momentum is stopped, the brain is slapping the skull. That tiny bit of padding may alleviate a tiny bit of force, but in the collisions that cause concussions, there’s no data to support it makes any difference. Expand https://safetyairproducts.com/ This cushion catches people in free fall going 120 mph without sustaining a concussion. The collisons are also causing cumulative damage. You say tiny, fair enough, data tells us 10% to 20% reduction If both players colliding wear one. Most small test studies I've looked at showed cutting concussion numbers in half or better albeit small sample sizes. Edited January 18 by Figster 2 Quote
Puckman5 Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/18/2025 at 3:21 AM, DCofNC said: The problem is, cushioning the impact doesn’t change inertia, the brain is still moving at say 15mph, the stop of that momentum is the issue. Doesn’t matter if you hit a pillow, if the momentum is stopped, the brain is slapping the skull. That tiny bit of padding may alleviate a tiny bit of force, but in the collisions that cause concussions, there’s no data to support it makes any difference. Expand so let’s take bumpers and crumple zones out of cars because they probably won’t help if you drive off a 100 ft cliff. 1 1 Quote
Billy Claude Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/18/2025 at 3:21 AM, DCofNC said: The problem is, cushioning the impact doesn’t change inertia, the brain is still moving at say 15mph, the stop of that momentum is the issue. Doesn’t matter if you hit a pillow, if the momentum is stopped, the brain is slapping the skull. That tiny bit of padding may alleviate a tiny bit of force, but in the collisions that cause concussions, there’s no data to support it makes any difference. Expand The momentum is the same but Physics 101 says that the change in momentum = force * time it takes to stop. If the cushioning means that the head comes to a stop over a 2 cm distance instead of a 1 cm distance, it will increase the time for the head to come to a full stop and the average force will be reduced by about a half. This is the way airbags, crumble zones etc. work. So the brain may be slapping the skull if you hit the pillow but it will do so with much less force which decreases the possibility of a concussion and the severity of the concussion. I have no idea whether the Guardian helmet is real world effective or not but I don't think there is anything in the physics that says it can't work. 2 1 Quote
DCofNC Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/18/2025 at 8:29 AM, Puckman5 said: so let’s take bumpers and crumple zones out of cars because they probably won’t help if you drive off a 100 ft cliff. Expand That’s actually a pretty good analogy. The issue in football is the force generated by big impact, a bumper doesn’t do much and neither does the cap. It also adds weight to the helmet, increasing mass and potentially setting up more neck injury. On 1/18/2025 at 10:05 AM, Billy Claude said: The momentum is the same but Physics 101 says that the change in momentum = force * time it takes to stop. If the cushioning means that the head comes to a stop over a 2 cm distance instead of a 1 cm distance, it will increase the time for the head to come to a full stop and the average force will be reduced by about a half. This is the way airbags, crumble zones etc. work. So the brain may be slapping the skull if you hit the pillow but it will do so with much less force which decreases the possibility of a concussion and the severity of the concussion. I have no idea whether the Guardian helmet is real world effective or not but I don't think there is anything in the physics that says it can't work. Expand It’s the real world that matters, not hypothetical. There’s very little to zero evidence it’s doing anything. I’m not saying it’s absolutely not, but there’s not a lot of reason to believe it is. On 1/18/2025 at 4:21 AM, Figster said: https://safetyairproducts.com/ This cushion catches people in free fall going 120 mph without sustaining a concussion. The collisons are also causing cumulative damage. You say tiny, fair enough, data tells us 10% to 20% reduction If both players colliding wear one. Most small test studies I've looked at showed cutting concussion numbers in half or better albeit small sample sizes. Expand That’s exactly the same 🙄 1 Quote
Buffalo03 Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) Guardian caps are fine for practice, but they look dumb as hell on the football field. And I saw Romeo Doubs get another head injury and lay in the end zone for a while last week even though he was wearing one. Whats the point? If players are afraid of getting concussions then don't play Edited January 18 by Buffalo03 1 Quote
Figster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/18/2025 at 8:29 AM, Puckman5 said: so let’s take bumpers and crumple zones out of cars because they probably won’t help if you drive off a 100 ft cliff. Expand Current NFL helmets are like cars without bumpers. Nicely done. Quote
Figster Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) On 1/18/2025 at 1:13 PM, Buffalo03 said: Guardian caps are fine for practice, but they look dumb as hell on the football field. And I saw Romeo Doubs get another head injury and lay in the end zone for a while last week even though he was wearing one. Whats the point? If players are afraid of getting concussions then don't play Expand Most NFL players are not afraid of injury IMO. Some take it to the next level like Tua or Damar Hamlin. Modern day Gladiators. This is part of the problem. I don't know what Romeo Doubs history is when it comes to concussions. Its very possible he has one and its not his 1st concussion. If two players collide head to head, both wearing the Guardin cap. The protection almost doubles. Something we have not seen in NFL live games. Edited January 18 by Figster Quote
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